News:

About us: a forum for monotheists, and discussion of Islam based on The Quran

Main Menu

:: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::

Started by mmkhan, July 21, 2012, 04:59:02 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Mazhar

QuoteGREEN: I like to know which verse.

2:161; 3:91; 9:84; 9:125; 47:34

The certain fact about those who had deliberately denied to accept the belief;
and they died while they were determined-staunch rejecters-Non Believers:
The Condemnation-contemptuous discard by Allah the Exalted and the Angels and by men is collectively destined for such Non-Believers [on the Day of Judgment]. [2:161]
[url="http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm"]http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm[/url]

Bender

Quote from: Mazhar on June 04, 2013, 03:09:18 PM
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ وَالْمُشْرِكِينَ فِي نَارِ جَهَنَّمَ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أُوْلَئِكَ هُمْ شَرُّ الْبَرِيَّةِ

You did not colour one word, I have coloured it red:those

Salaamun alayka,

That is because of how you translated the verse, it's very difficult to connect your translation with the Arabic, but we had this discussion before.

QuoteThe linkage clause for the relative pronoun is one grammatical unit which is to be transferred as a unit in the target language taking care of its conventions. All of the People of Book and Mushrikeen are not mentioned but a subset of them who did the act signified by the verb which is the linkage clause of Allazeena-Those -- who.

GREEN: I am very sorry but your grammar books leads you to wrong understandings.
ONLY subset of People of Book but ALL Mushrikeen.

Here is a nice example from 5:5
5:5 "...  وَالْمُحْصَنَاتُ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنَاتِ وَالْمُحْصَنَاتُ مِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ مِن قَبْلِكُمْ    ..."
You see it was not that hard  :nope:

Look at the next ayaat please:
A- 9:17   مَا كَانَ لِلْمُشْرِكِينَ أَن يَعْمُرُوا مَسَاجِدَ اللَّـهِ شَاهِدِينَ عَلَىٰ أَنفُسِهِم بِالْكُفْرِ ۚ أُولَـٰئِكَ حَبِطَتْ أَعْمَالُهُمْ وَفِي النَّارِ هُمْ خَالِدُونَ
All of them not a single one is spared, no subset. So this contradicts your understanding.

if 98:6 was talking about a subset of AlMushrikeen then it should have been something like this:
Inna allatheena kafaroo min ahli alkitabi waallatheena kafaroo mina almushrikeena...as per 5:5

or at least something like this:
Inna allatheena kafaroo min ahli alkitabi wamina almushrikeena...
but this would be I think a weird sentence.

By the way AlMushrkeena gets MINA not MIN. This already makes it weird to understand that it's talking about a subset of almushrikeen.

QuoteIf someone is today a Mushrik, tomorrow he can become a believer. He is not going to hell-prison subject to having met other condionalities of becoming a believer.
We now that.
But the ayaat is not talking about the believers of tomorrow but about the kafaru from the people of the book and the mushreeks of today.


QuoteAlways remember to see the case endings of the words to determine their relationship with the preceding word. Mushrikeena is in genitive case. If they were a separate entity as another predicate of Inna then it has to be in nominative case.

what you fail to understand is that "allatheena kafaroo min ahli alkitabi" is 1 entity in itself. And "almushrikeena" is 1 entity.
you take "ahli alkitabi" as 1 entity and that is not correct.

Salaam,
Bender
Alhamdu lillahi rabbi al-alameen

Bender

Quote from: Mazhar on June 04, 2013, 03:30:29 PM
2:161; 3:91; 9:84; 9:125; 47:34

The certain fact about those who had deliberately denied to accept the belief;
and they died while they were determined-staunch rejecters-Non Believers:
The Condemnation-contemptuous discard by Allah the Exalted and the Angels and by men is collectively destined for such Non-Believers [on the Day of Judgment]. [2:161]

Salaamun alayka,

Thank you I see now what you mean with "and died in that state".
But I see also that Allah is capable to say something like "and died in that state" in 2:161.
So I wonder why you translated 98:6 with an "and died in that state" while it's not there.
We can already learn from 2:161 that He is capable of doing it, but He did not do it in 98:6.

Salaam,
Bender
Alhamdu lillahi rabbi al-alameen

Mazhar

Quote from: Bender on June 06, 2013, 05:56:50 PM
Salaamun alayka,

Thank you I see now what you mean with "and died in that state".
But I see also that Allah is capable to say something like "and died in that state" in 2:161.
So I wonder why you translated 98:6 with an "and died in that state" while it's not there.
We can already learn from 2:161 that He is capable of doing it, but He did not do it in 98:6.

Salaam,
Bender

Salamun alaikum,

Writing --- the original text is according to conventions and the style of author.

Translation is the transference of  the information [not words equivalence----naive are they who do it-they ignore what writing means] embedded in the original text in the target language which has its own conventions. Its conventions are also to be taken care of.

فِي نَارِ جَهَنَّمَ   This is a compound of Prepositional Phrase and Possessive Phrase. This is about the EMBEDDED/ELIDED predicate of the Verb Like Particle "Inna". A prepositional phrase is neither a subject of sentence nor predicate. It is relating to either.

"in the fire of Hell" is obviously relevant only after death. Though the elided predicate is visible to everyone who knows grammar and mode of writing of Arabic, but I insist in translation that it should only be from Qur'aan as I quoted you the Ayahs.

Reading does not mean picking the meanings of individual words. It needs comprehension. And for comprehending a non native text,  one MUST know the grammar and modes of writing in that language. 
[url="http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm"]http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm[/url]

wrkmmn

Peace:

4:150 VERILY, those who deny God and His apostles by endeavouring to make a distinction between [belief in] God and [belief in] His apostles, and who say, "We believe in the one but we deny the other,"* and want to pursue a path in-between - (4:151) it is they, they who are truly denying the truth: and for those who deny the truth We have readied shameful suffering.

* Or: "We believe in some and we deny the others"- that is, they believe in God but not in
His apostles (Zamakhshari) or, alternatively, they believe in some of the apostles and
deny others (Tabari and Zamakhshari). To my mind, the first of these two interpretations
is preferable inasmuch as it covers not only a rejection of some of the apostles but also
a total rejection of the idea that God may have revealed His will through His chosen
message-bearers. In Islam, the rejection of any or all of God's apostles constitutes almost
as grave a sin as a denial of God Himself.(Mohamed Assad)

Bender

Quote from: Mazhar on June 07, 2013, 03:39:58 AM
Salamun alaikum,

Salaamun alayka,

I am singular.

Quote فِي نَارِ جَهَنَّمَ   This is a compound of Prepositional Phrase and Possessive Phrase. This is about the EMBEDDED/ELIDED predicate of the Verb Like Particle "Inna". A prepositional phrase is neither a subject of sentence nor predicate. It is relating to either.

"in the fire of Hell" is obviously relevant only after death. Though the elided predicate is visible to everyone who knows grammar and mode of writing of Arabic, but I insist in translation that it should only be from Qur'aan as I quoted you the Ayahs.

Reading does not mean picking the meanings of individual words. It needs comprehension. And for comprehending a non native text,  one MUST know the grammar and modes of writing in that language.

Can you please show me what elided predicate is visible to everyone who knows grammar and mode of writing of Arabic in:
103:2 إِنَّ الْإِنسَانَ لَفِي خُسْرٍ

Salaam,
Bender
Alhamdu lillahi rabbi al-alameen

Mazhar

Quote from: Bender on June 10, 2013, 07:44:00 AM
Salaamun alayka,

I am singular.


Can you please show me what elided predicate is visible to everyone who knows grammar and mode of writing of Arabic in:
103:2 إِنَّ الْإِنسَانَ لَفِي خُسْرٍ

Salaam,
Bender

Salamun alaika, [for singular the plural pronoun can also be used - it is a complete sentence with predicate elided to which relates the prepositional phrase --for this reason you can wish this even for a polytheist on meeting or departure]

إِنَّ الْإِنسَانَ لَفِي خُسْرٍ

In categorization of sentences it the the simple sentence. It is news given under oath. Subject noun of Verb Like Particle is الْإِنسَانَ man as species.

It needs a predicate. لَفِي خُسْرٍ is not predicate since it is a prepositional phrase with prefixed emphatic particle to lay another emphasis on the news given.

The elided predicate is visible to rational beings if they know what is signified by خُسْرٍ a verbal noun which states only action and state without reference to time. The oath is also about the timeline.

You determine the meanings and signification of خُسْرٍ and the elided predicate will emerge before your eyes. Please try.
[url="http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm"]http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm[/url]

Bender

Quote from: Mazhar on June 10, 2013, 08:39:19 AM
Salamun alaika, [for singular the plural pronoun can also be used - it is a complete sentence with predicate elided to which relates the prepositional phrase --for this reason you can wish this even for a polytheist on meeting or departure]

Salaamun alayka,

I can not find such usage in The Quran.
Can I say also to a singular person: Barakatun Aleikum  :hmm


Quoteإِنَّ الْإِنسَانَ لَفِي خُسْرٍ

In categorization of sentences it the the simple sentence. It is news given under oath. Subject noun of Verb Like Particle is الْإِنسَانَ man as species.

It needs a predicate. لَفِي خُسْرٍ is not predicate since it is a prepositional phrase with prefixed emphatic particle to lay another emphasis on the news given.

The elided predicate is visible to rational beings if they know what is signified by خُسْرٍ a verbal noun which states only action and state without reference to time. The oath is also about the timeline.

You determine the meanings and signification of خُسْرٍ and the elided predicate will emerge before your eyes. Please try.

What I see is that the structure of 103:2 is the same as 98:6
A- 103:2 إِنَّ الْإِنسَانَ لَفِي خُسْرٍ
A- 98:2 إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ وَالْمُشْرِكِينَ فِي نَارِ جَهَنَّمَ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا ۚ أُولَـٰئِكَ هُمْ شَرُّ الْبَرِيَّةِ

I was wondering why there is no "and died in that state" in your translation of 103:2

Salaam,
Bender
Alhamdu lillahi rabbi al-alameen

Mazhar

Quote from: Bender on June 11, 2013, 05:17:55 AM
Salaamun alayka,

What I see is that the structure of 103:2 is the same as 98:6
A- 103:2 إِنَّ الْإِنسَانَ لَفِي خُسْرٍ
A- 98:2 إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ وَالْمُشْرِكِينَ فِي نَارِ جَهَنَّمَ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا ۚ أُولَـٰئِكَ هُمْ شَرُّ الْبَرِيَّةِ

I was wondering why there is no "and died in that state" in your translation of 103:2

Salaam,
Bender

The similarity is that both prepositional phrase are about the elided predicate of Inna. "Loss" is determined at the extreme end of time. Going within the Hell-Prison is also to be determined by the end state of a person.

Swearing is by the Span of Time; [103:01]
That the fact is: the Man as a species is certainly heading towards loss-worse state at the concluding point in time than the state-position at the point in time of beginning. [in time span from obeisance of Angels and Paradise to Hell-Prison] [103:02]
Except those who willingly and affectionately accepted-believed and performed moderate righteous deeds;
And they consciously kept themselves embedded-tied with the Infallible Fact-Grand Qur'aan;
And they convincingly kept themselves remain coolly perseverant and steadfast. [103:03]
[url="http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm"]http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm[/url]

Bender

Quote from: Mazhar on June 11, 2013, 05:34:22 AM
The similarity is that both prepositional phrase are about the elided predicate of Inna. "Loss" is determined at the extreme end of time. Going within the Hell-Prison is also to be determined by the end state of a person.

Swearing is by the Span of Time; [103:01]
That the fact is: the Man as a species is certainly heading towards loss-worse state at the concluding point in time than the state-position at the point in time of beginning. [in time span from obeisance of Angels and Paradise to Hell-Prison] [103:02]
Except those who willingly and affectionately accepted-believed and performed moderate righteous deeds;
And they consciously kept themselves embedded-tied with the Infallible Fact-Grand Qur'aan;
And they convincingly kept themselves remain coolly perseverant and steadfast. [103:03]

Salaamun alayka,

So now man is not in loss?

Salaam,
Bender
Alhamdu lillahi rabbi al-alameen