Author Topic: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::  (Read 17066 times)

mmkhan

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Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
« Reply #90 on: May 22, 2013, 03:56:06 PM »
Salaamun a3laika,

And here goes your translation of an aayat.

15:87 وَ لَقَدۡ اٰتَیۡنٰکَ سَبۡعًا مِّنَ الۡمَثَانِیۡ وَ الۡقُرۡاٰنَ الۡعَظِیۡمَ
15:87 Moreover, the fact remains that We did give you the Messenger [Muhammad Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam] Seven distinctly elaborative Aa'ya'at-Verbal Unitary Passages selected-excepted from the Binary-Symmetrical-analogous Miscellany. Moreover, it also remains a certain fact that We have given the Grand Qur'aan to you the Messenger [Muhammad Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam].

This is what you were expecting? Sorry, I cannot dare to add my words to the word of Allah and cannot translate a single line aayat with 4 lines translation.

And what I wrote, even if it is grammatically wrong but, still you understood it. That is what important, no need write paragraphs.
6:162    قل إن صلاتي ونسكي ومحياي ومماتي لله رب العلمين
6:162    Say: My contact prayer, and my rites, and my life, and my death, are all to Allah, Lord of the worlds.
 
3:51

The_Chimp

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Re: Update on :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
« Reply #91 on: May 22, 2013, 06:46:52 PM »
Salaamun A3laika Mazhar,

I was expecting someone will come up with this aayat.

15:87 وَ لَقَدۡ اٰتَیۡنٰکَ سَبۡعًا مِّنَ الۡمَثَانِیۡ وَ الۡقُرۡاٰنَ الۡعَظِیۡمَ
15:87 And We have certainly given you, seven of the often repeated and the great Qur'an.

Highlighted is to show what this aayat says. Aataina is not referring to alQuraan alA3zeem, but it is only referring to 7 of the often repeated. Why aataina is missing before alQuraan alA3zeem. This same structure can be found in 3:3.

3:3 نَزَّلَ عَلَیۡکَ الۡکِتٰبَ بِالۡحَقِّ مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَیۡنَ یَدَیۡہِ وَ اَنۡزَلَ التَّوۡرٰىۃَ وَ الۡاِنۡجِیۡلَ
3:3 He has sent down upon you, the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Tawraat and the Injeel.

Here again Injeel is not revealed, and anzala is referring only to Tawraat. Because there is no other aayat to support that alInjeel was revealed, but you will find some aayaat confirming Tawraat was revealed. As you clearly see that anzala is missing before alInjeel. Another example is in 4:59.

4:59 یٰۤاَیُّہَا الَّذِیۡنَ اٰمَنُوۡۤا اَطِیۡعُوا اللّٰہَ وَ اَطِیۡعُوا الرَّسُوۡلَ وَ اُولِی الۡاَمۡرِ مِنۡکُمۡ ۚ فَاِنۡ تَنَازَعۡتُمۡ فِیۡ شَیۡءٍ فَرُدُّوۡہُ اِلَی اللّٰہِ وَ الرَّسُوۡلِ اِنۡ کُنۡتُمۡ تُؤۡمِنُوۡنَ بِاللّٰہِ وَ الۡیَوۡمِ الۡاٰخِرِ ؕ ذٰلِکَ خَیۡرٌ وَّ اَحۡسَنُ تَاۡوِیۡلًا
4:59 O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best and best in result.

Please note that the word atiy3oo is used before the word 'Allah' and before the word 'alRasool' but atiy3oo is missing before the words 'those in authority among you'. This means, we are not asked to atiy3oo [obey] those who are in authority among you, but they also have to obey Allah and obey alRasool.

Similarly you can clearly find difference between 3:32 and 5:92.

3:32 قُلۡ اَطِیۡعُوا اللّٰہَ وَ الرَّسُوۡلَ ۚ فَاِنۡ تَوَلَّوۡا فَاِنَّ اللّٰہَ لَا یُحِبُّ الۡکٰفِرِیۡنَ
3:32 Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers.

5:92 وَ اَطِیۡعُوا اللّٰہَ وَ اَطِیۡعُوا الرَّسُوۡلَ وَ احۡذَرُوۡا ۚ فَاِنۡ تَوَلَّیۡتُمۡ فَاعۡلَمُوۡۤا اَنَّمَا عَلٰی رَسُوۡلِنَا الۡبَلٰغُ الۡمُبِیۡنُ
5:92 And obey Allah and obey the Messenger and beware. And if you turn away ? then know that upon Our Messenger is only clear notification.

This is a clear difference, in 3:32 atiy3oo is missing before alRasool. Once we understand this pattern of alQuraan, you will understand that aataiyna is not referring to alQuraan alA3zeem in 15:87. If not, then there must be some other aayaat which will clarify that alQuraan was given and I don't find any. Please share if you find.


May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path :pr
mmKhan

Hi,

I have read many of your posts mmKhan - I get the feeling your understanding of Arabic is very weak. This is incorrect:

Here again Injeel is not revealed, and anzala is referring only to Tawraat. Because there is no other aayat to support that alInjeel was revealed, but you will find some aayaat confirming Tawraat was revealed. As you clearly see that anzala is missing before alInjeel. Another example is in 4:59.

In Arabic if the Verb is mentioned before then it takes singular form, even if the the Subject is plural. Here the verb applies to both Toran and Injeel.

You also say:

"اِذۡ is used for past in alQuraan.
اِذَا is used for present and future in alQuraan."

But that is not correct. Iz is not just used for past tense - see verse 3:124.

mmmm

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Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
« Reply #92 on: June 01, 2013, 11:49:13 PM »
To me it seems the "linguists" have taken the role of "the ulema", history repeats.

mmkhan

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Re: Update on :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
« Reply #93 on: June 02, 2013, 01:30:15 AM »
Hi,

I have read many of your posts mmKhan - I get the feeling your understanding of Arabic is very weak. This is incorrect:

Here again Injeel is not revealed, and anzala is referring only to Tawraat. Because there is no other aayat to support that alInjeel was revealed, but you will find some aayaat confirming Tawraat was revealed. As you clearly see that anzala is missing before alInjeel. Another example is in 4:59.

In Arabic if the Verb is mentioned before then it takes singular form, even if the the Subject is plural. Here the verb applies to both Toran and Injeel.

You also say:

"اِذۡ is used for past in alQuraan.
اِذَا is used for present and future in alQuraan."

But that is not correct. Iz is not just used for past tense - see verse 3:124.

Hello Chimp,

Unfortunately you don't see how alQuraan speaks. Those are the patterns set by Allah for guidance to all humans. Which will be very easy for everyone to understand.

And brother the aayat you quoted 3:124, it needs to be rechecked. Please take a look again and see what you said.


May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path :pr
mmKhan
6:162    قل إن صلاتي ونسكي ومحياي ومماتي لله رب العلمين
6:162    Say: My contact prayer, and my rites, and my life, and my death, are all to Allah, Lord of the worlds.
 
3:51

wrkmmn

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Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
« Reply #94 on: June 02, 2013, 03:27:30 PM »
Peace:

To MMKHAN:
Quran was given to Moses, not Muhammad? I thought I had heard the worst. So, this guy is trying to make people believe that thousands of Muslims forgot the name of the person who was preaching the Qur?an, this is utterly nonsensical. It is like saying that the injeel was not given Jesus, because in the gospels attributed to him he doesn't mentions his own name, and we will not believe his followers accusing them of forgetting, being that one of the most important things for believing in a message is believing in the messenger (when such is walking the earth). However, we believe the injeel was given to Jesus because the Qur?n says ?.....and we sent jesuss..... We gave him the Gospel...?. As conclusion, whose heart Gabriel brought the Quran to? ?your heart?, you meaning Mohammed's heart, not Moses's heart, not MMKhAN's heart?47:2..........والذين آمنوا وعملوا الصالحات وآمنوا بما نزل على محمد whereas those who have attained to faith and do righteous deeds, and have come to believe in what has been bestowed from on high on/over Muhamad. Of course, you have the right to argue that in both verses it doesn't specify what is being brought down or whose heart, but inventing that the heart is of Moses and Muhammad did not existed, is entering the dangerous ground of conjecture. tomorrow you will say that you are the prophet mentioned in the Quran.

As for you the disbelievers, you can wait for another revelation, where God will tell you ?and we sent Muhammad...We gave him the Quran? .


63:3 this, because [they profess that] they have attained to faith, whereas [inwardly] they deny the truth - and so, a seal has been set on their hearts so that they can no longer understand [what is true and what false].
63:4 Now when thou seest them, their outward appearance may please thee; and when they speak, thou art inclined to lend ear to what they say. [But though they may seem as sure of themselves] as if they were timbers [firmly] propped up, they think that every shout is [directed] against them. They are the [real] enemies [of all faith], so beware of them. [They deserve the imprecation,] "May God destroy them!" How perverted are their minds! (63:5) for, when they are told, "Come, the Apostle of God will pray [unto God] that you be forgiven", they turn their heads away, and thou canst see how they draw back in their false pride.


To GODSUBMITER:
Quote
Jesus was the most perfect Jew, same as Moses who is the greatest prophet of them all.

Saying that Jesus and Moses were perfect Jews is a very ignorant statement. Jews were and are only those who descended from the tribe of Judah, and those cursed by David and Jesus, and those who killed Jesus and have been in the category of disbelievers for a long time. On the other hand, Jesus and Moses were Levites, and they were true believers, and though some of the best, not perfect, for nobody is perfect but God. (Perfect Jews were the Pharisees and the Sadducees).



to BENDER:
Quote
?Only to admonish them that they are going to be the worst of the creatures. Condemned and cursed for ever?
From where did you got this wrong understanding? 
Can you please give us some verses to support your understanding?
Please don't quote 5:78

98:6Verily, those who [despite all evidence] are bent on denying the truth8 - [be they] from among
the people/family of the book or from among those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God
- will find themselves in the fire of hell, therein to abide: they are the worst of all creatures.



To MAHA:
Quote
Lol David and Jesus were both from Bani Israel so it's hard to believe that They cursed themselves . Please use your brain.

Mattew 23:31-32 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Guess who has to use His/her brain.

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Update on :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
« Reply #95 on: June 02, 2013, 06:43:03 PM »
Here again Injeel is not revealed, and anzala is referring only to Tawraat. Because there is no other aayat to support that alInjeel was revealed, but you will find some aayaat confirming Tawraat was revealed.

Peace --

5:47 ولىحكم and let judge اهل individuals الانجىل the injeel بما by what انزل anzala/descended الله the god فىه in it ومن and from لم not ىحكم rules بما by what انزل anzala/descended الله the god فاولىك so those هم are الفاسقون the disobeying

Bender

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Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
« Reply #96 on: June 03, 2013, 03:03:48 AM »
Peace:

to BENDER:
98:6Verily, those who [despite all evidence] are bent on denying the truth8 - [be they] from among
the people/family of the book or from among those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God
- will find themselves in the fire of hell, therein to abide: they are the worst of all creatures.



Salaamun alayka,

Just for the case you missed on what I was replying:

member Godsubmitter: The whole Qur'an is but the reminder for the Bani Israel

member Mazhar to member Godsubmitter: Only to admonish them that they are going to be the worst of the creatures. Condemned and cursed for ever. They were cursed also by Dawood alahisalam and Easa alahissalam.

member Bender to member Mazhar: From where did you got this wrong understanding? 
Can you please give us some verses to support your understanding?
Please don't quote 5:78


member wrkmmn to member Bender: 98:6Verily, those who [despite all evidence] are bent on denying the truth8 - [be they] from among
the people/family of the book or from among those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God
- will find themselves in the fire of hell, therein to abide: they are the worst of all creatures.



a couple of things:

1) Godsubmitter was talking about BANI ISRAEL, Mazhar was talking about BANI ISRAEL, Bender was talkig about BANI ISRAEL, wrkmmm comes back with a verse about "those who are kafaru from AHL ALKITAAB and THE MUSHRIKS". 2 different things.

2) Even IF you take them as equals then quoting 98:6 is still a blank in this case. Maybe you missed the word "MIN", I know it's a small word BUT veeeeeery important  :yes
In reply 69 Mazhar realizes that he missed the word "MIN" when he made his statement to Godsubmiter in reply 65, so he corrects it in a subtle way by saying: "He also cursed those of his nation Bani Israel who did not believe"

3) Not sure if the translation you gave for 98:6 is yours but it's very bad. It does not say "or from among those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God" 
There is no OR but AND, and there is no FROM AMONG THOSE WHO.

Salaam,
Bender
Alhamdu lillahi rabbi al-alameen

Mazhar

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Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
« Reply #97 on: June 03, 2013, 01:29:52 PM »
Certain information about those of the People of Book and the Polytheists: idol worshippers who refused to accept and died in that state:
They will be forced in the scorching heat of the Hell-Prison.
They will reside therein perpetually.
They are truly the people who exposed themselves as disturbers of equilibrium-eternal truth. [98:06]

Prepositional phrase with Min relates to the elided circumstantial clause. It relates to continuation of the state of non-believing till the point in time of death. The embedded circumstantial clause is evident from other Ayah where it is said that they died while they were in the state of deniers by that point in time.

Bender

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Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
« Reply #98 on: June 04, 2013, 09:20:48 AM »
Certain information about those of the People of Book and the Polytheists: idol worshippers who refused to accept and died in that state :
They will be forced in the scorching heat of the Hell-Prison.
They will reside therein perpetually.
They are truly the people who exposed themselves as disturbers of equilibrium-eternal truth. [98:06]

Salaamun alayka,

I really do not understand you Mazhar.
I assume that you translated "الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا " with the red highlight.
Why did you put it there while in arabic it is before "the People of Book"?
I really do not understand this  :tempt:

And NO it does not read: "those who refused to accept and died in that state from the People of Book AND those who refused to accept and died in that state from the Polytheists"
You can probably justify it with your grammar rules, but I assume you know very well that there is not a single ayaat in The Quran where some of the muskriks are set in a positive light.
Mushriks are always bad, and not only a couple of them but all of them.

Quote
Prepositional phrase with Min relates to the elided circumstantial clause. It relates to continuation of the state of non-believing till the point in time of death. The embedded circumstantial clause is evident from other Ayah where it is said that they died while they were in the state of deniers by that point in time.

I have no idea what you are saying here. I am sure that if one is able to write down such exotic sentences he must also be able to write also normal sentences so that eveybody can understand them.
"الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ " simply says that it ONLY refers to those who are kafaru from the People of Book, not all of them, just the ones who are kafaru. As simple as that.

GREEN: I like to know which verse.

Salaam,
Bender
Alhamdu lillahi rabbi al-alameen

Mazhar

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Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
« Reply #99 on: June 04, 2013, 12:09:18 PM »
Quote
I really do not understand you Mazhar.
I assume that you translated "الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا " with the red highlight.
Why did you put it there while in arabic it is before "the People of Book"?
I really do not understand this

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ وَالْمُشْرِكِينَ فِي نَارِ جَهَنَّمَ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أُوْلَئِكَ هُمْ شَرُّ الْبَرِيَّةِ

You did not colour one word, I have coloured it red:those

Quote
Certain information about those of the People of Book and the Polytheists: idol worshippers who refused to accept and died in that state :They will be forced in the scorching heat of the Hell-Prison.
They will reside therein perpetually.
They are truly the people who exposed themselves as disturbers of equilibrium-eternal truth. [98:06]

The linkage clause for the relative pronoun is one grammatical unit which is to be transferred as a unit in the target language taking care of its conventions. All of the People of Book and Mushrikeen are not mentioned but a subset of them who did the act signified by the verb which is the linkage clause of Allazeena-Those -- who.

If someone is today a Mushrik, tomorrow he can become a believer. He is not going to hell-prison subject to having met other condionalities of becoming a believer. Always remember to see the case endings of the words to determine their relationship with the preceding word. Mushrikeena is in genitive case. If they were a separate entity as another predicate of Inna then it has to be in nominative case.