Author Topic: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::  (Read 17094 times)

Mazhar

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Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
« Reply #80 on: January 01, 2013, 03:59:44 PM »
Yes, so what is the problem here? How is this support what you said "One word قَبۡلَہُمۡ suffices to prove how erroneous is the premises of thread."?

If you read my opening post, it already clearly said that this is referring to qawme firaun.

I think, you misunderstood the concept of this thread. Please re-read it.


May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His only path :pr
mmKhan

I am talking about the pronoun in  قَبۡلَہُمۡ and not hum of verb Jaahum. This hum in  قَبۡلَہُمۡ is for the people to whom Qur'aan was addressing. 

mmkhan

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Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
« Reply #81 on: January 02, 2013, 03:47:56 PM »
I am talking about the pronoun in  قَبۡلَہُمۡ and not hum of verb Jaahum. This hum in  قَبۡلَہُمۡ is for the people to whom Qur'aan was addressing.

Red: Who are those people whom alQuraan was addressing in قَبۡلَہُمۡ ?
6:162    قل إن صلاتي ونسكي ومحياي ومماتي لله رب العلمين
6:162    Say: My contact prayer, and my rites, and my life, and my death, are all to Allah, Lord of the worlds.
 
3:51

mmkhan

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Update on :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
« Reply #82 on: May 21, 2013, 05:45:06 PM »
Salaam,

One of our forum members said this today about this thread.

Quote
The thread which you've referred above, clearly shows your fallacies and how you've failed to reply to the arguments which Mazhar has put forward against yours.

I confess that I was wrong about 2:55 and 2:61 in this thread while discussing with Mazhar. But now Allah has corrected me as usual, alhamduliAllah :hail

I should also admit that I was asking for simple aayat to explain me [to Mazhar] that why I am wrong, but he want me to learn English grammar, then pronouns, then adverbs, then emphasis, rhetoric to see how I am wrong. Instead, he would have shown me in a simple manner what I was asking him. Anyways the simple way Allah guided me is with اِذۡ and اِذَا.

اِذۡ is used for past in alQuraan.
اِذَا is used for present and future in alQuraan.

Simple as that. Both 2:55 and 2:61 used اِذۡ hence referring to past.

But, this isn't effecting my opening post in anyways.



Update on the opening thread:

Q. To whom alQuraan was given?
A. alQuraan was NOT GIVEN to anyone.

Here it is how...

alKitaab was given to Musa, then
Zuboor was given to Dawood, then

Compilation of alKitaab given to Musa + Zuboor given to Dawood = Tawraat, then

Tawraat was available with Eisa, then
Eisa was given Injeel, then

Compilation of Tawraat + Injeel given to Eisa = alQuraan.

This is because,
alKitaab was GIVEN [ata not naazil] to Musa - 17:2 and 7:144
Zaboor was GIVEN [ata not naazil] to Dawood - 4:163
Tawraat was REVEALED - 5:44 [please note, it was not GIVEN]
Injeel was GIVEN [ata not naazil] to Eisa - 5:46 and 57:27
alQuraan was REVEALED - 2:185 [please not, it was not GIVEN]

This is how I understand it... Please note that this is my personal understanding, study the aayaat quoted by clicking on it's numbers. Hope this may help at least some people inshaAllah.


May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path :pr
mmKhan
6:162    قل إن صلاتي ونسكي ومحياي ومماتي لله رب العلمين
6:162    Say: My contact prayer, and my rites, and my life, and my death, are all to Allah, Lord of the worlds.
 
3:51

Mazhar

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Re: Update on :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
« Reply #83 on: May 22, 2013, 05:19:26 AM »
Salaam,

But, this isn't effecting my opening post in anyways.



Update on the opening thread:

Q. To whom alQuraan was given?
A. alQuraan was NOT GIVEN to anyone.

Here it is how...

alKitaab was given to Musa, then
Zuboor was given to Dawood, then

Compilation of alKitaab given to Musa + Zuboor given to Dawood = Tawraat, then

Tawraat was available with Eisa, then
Eisa was given Injeel, then

Compilation of Tawraat + Injeel given to Eisa = alQuraan.

This is because,
alKitaab was GIVEN [ata not naazil] to Musa - 17:2 and 7:144
Zaboor was GIVEN [ata not naazil] to Dawood - 4:163
Tawraat was REVEALED - 5:44 [please note, it was not GIVEN]
Injeel was GIVEN [ata not naazil] to Eisa - 5:46 and 57:27
alQuraan was REVEALED - 2:185 [please not, it was not GIVEN]

This is how I understand it... Please note that this is my personal understanding, study the aayaat quoted by clicking on it's numbers. Hope this may help at least some people inshaAllah.


May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path :pr
mmKhan

Salamun alaika,

وَلَقَدْ آتَيْنَاكَ سَبْعًا مِّنَ الْمَثَانِي وَالْقُرْآنَ الْعَظِيمَ

mmkhan

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Re: Update on :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
« Reply #84 on: May 22, 2013, 07:38:29 AM »
Salamun alaika,

وَلَقَدْ آتَيْنَاكَ سَبْعًا مِّنَ الْمَثَانِي وَالْقُرْآنَ الْعَظِيمَ

Salaamun A3laika Mazhar,

I was expecting someone will come up with this aayat.

15:87 وَ لَقَدۡ اٰتَیۡنٰکَ سَبۡعًا مِّنَ الۡمَثَانِیۡ وَ الۡقُرۡاٰنَ الۡعَظِیۡمَ
15:87 And We have certainly given you, seven of the often repeated and the great Qur'an.

Highlighted is to show what this aayat says. Aataina is not referring to alQuraan alA3zeem, but it is only referring to 7 of the often repeated. Why aataina is missing before alQuraan alA3zeem. This same structure can be found in 3:3.

3:3 نَزَّلَ عَلَیۡکَ الۡکِتٰبَ بِالۡحَقِّ مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَیۡنَ یَدَیۡہِ وَ اَنۡزَلَ التَّوۡرٰىۃَ وَ الۡاِنۡجِیۡلَ
3:3 He has sent down upon you, the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Tawraat and the Injeel.

Here again Injeel is not revealed, and anzala is referring only to Tawraat. Because there is no other aayat to support that alInjeel was revealed, but you will find some aayaat confirming Tawraat was revealed. As you clearly see that anzala is missing before alInjeel. Another example is in 4:59.

4:59 یٰۤاَیُّہَا الَّذِیۡنَ اٰمَنُوۡۤا اَطِیۡعُوا اللّٰہَ وَ اَطِیۡعُوا الرَّسُوۡلَ وَ اُولِی الۡاَمۡرِ مِنۡکُمۡ ۚ فَاِنۡ تَنَازَعۡتُمۡ فِیۡ شَیۡءٍ فَرُدُّوۡہُ اِلَی اللّٰہِ وَ الرَّسُوۡلِ اِنۡ کُنۡتُمۡ تُؤۡمِنُوۡنَ بِاللّٰہِ وَ الۡیَوۡمِ الۡاٰخِرِ ؕ ذٰلِکَ خَیۡرٌ وَّ اَحۡسَنُ تَاۡوِیۡلًا
4:59 O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best and best in result.

Please note that the word atiy3oo is used before the word 'Allah' and before the word 'alRasool' but atiy3oo is missing before the words 'those in authority among you'. This means, we are not asked to atiy3oo [obey] those who are in authority among you, but they also have to obey Allah and obey alRasool.

Similarly you can clearly find difference between 3:32 and 5:92.

3:32 قُلۡ اَطِیۡعُوا اللّٰہَ وَ الرَّسُوۡلَ ۚ فَاِنۡ تَوَلَّوۡا فَاِنَّ اللّٰہَ لَا یُحِبُّ الۡکٰفِرِیۡنَ
3:32 Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers.

5:92 وَ اَطِیۡعُوا اللّٰہَ وَ اَطِیۡعُوا الرَّسُوۡلَ وَ احۡذَرُوۡا ۚ فَاِنۡ تَوَلَّیۡتُمۡ فَاعۡلَمُوۡۤا اَنَّمَا عَلٰی رَسُوۡلِنَا الۡبَلٰغُ الۡمُبِیۡنُ
5:92 And obey Allah and obey the Messenger and beware. And if you turn away ? then know that upon Our Messenger is only clear notification.

This is a clear difference, in 3:32 atiy3oo is missing before alRasool. Once we understand this pattern of alQuraan, you will understand that aataiyna is not referring to alQuraan alA3zeem in 15:87. If not, then there must be some other aayaat which will clarify that alQuraan was given and I don't find any. Please share if you find.


May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path :pr
mmKhan
6:162    قل إن صلاتي ونسكي ومحياي ومماتي لله رب العلمين
6:162    Say: My contact prayer, and my rites, and my life, and my death, are all to Allah, Lord of the worlds.
 
3:51

Mazhar

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Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
« Reply #85 on: May 22, 2013, 08:27:51 AM »
Quote
laamun A3laika Mazhar,

I was expecting someone will come up with this aayat.

15:87 وَ لَقَدۡ اٰتَیۡنٰکَ سَبۡعًا مِّنَ الۡمَثَانِیۡ وَ الۡقُرۡاٰنَ الۡعَظِیۡمَ
15:87 And We have certainly given you, seven of the often repeated and the great Qur'an.

Highlighted is to show what this aayat says. Aataina is not referring to alQuraan alA3zeem, but it is only referring to 7 of the often repeated. Why aataina is missing before alQuraan alA3zeem. This same structure can be found in 3:3.

Salamun alaika,

The sentence in translation and the inference are contradictory. Please try reconciling it.

mmkhan

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Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
« Reply #86 on: May 22, 2013, 09:12:16 AM »
Salamun alaika,

The sentence in translation and the inference are contradictory. Please try reconciling it.

Salaamun a3laika,

I don't find it is difficult to understand what wrote. Anyways, here it is..

15:87 وَ لَقَدۡ اٰتَیۡنٰکَ سَبۡعًا مِّنَ الۡمَثَانِیۡ وَ الۡقُرۡاٰنَ الۡعَظِیۡمَ
15:87 And We have certainly given you, seven of the often repeated and the great Qur'an.

I mean that orange part is referring to blue part only and not the red part.


May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path :pr
mmKhan
6:162    قل إن صلاتي ونسكي ومحياي ومماتي لله رب العلمين
6:162    Say: My contact prayer, and my rites, and my life, and my death, are all to Allah, Lord of the worlds.
 
3:51

Mazhar

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Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
« Reply #87 on: May 22, 2013, 09:44:09 AM »
Salaamun a3laika,

I don't find it is difficult to understand what wrote. Anyways, here it is..

15:87 وَ لَقَدۡ اٰتَیۡنٰکَ سَبۡعًا مِّنَ الۡمَثَانِیۡ وَ الۡقُرۡاٰنَ الۡعَظِیۡمَ
15:87 And We have certainly given you, seven of the often repeated and the great Qur'an.

I mean that orange part is referring to blue part only and not the red part.


May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path :pr
mmKhan

Salamun alaika,

No one can perceive anything else from your translation that the words after "and" relate to "given you".

Your sentence is combination of two sentences:
1) We have certainly given you seven of the often repeated.
2) We have certainly given you the great Qur'aan.

By combining these two sentences with conjunction "and" you have done the economy of one "We have certainly given you".

One thing more; in english your first sentence is incomplete --hence meaningless for the reader.

Please read about conjunctions in the grammar of any language to know how sentences are structured using conjunctions to avoid repetition of words for succintness.

Please don't mind when I suggest you to read about grammar of the language. Sincerely, let me tell you that without knowing grammar you know nothing of the text of any language and will keep conjecturing and roaming in vacuum. 

mmkhan

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Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
« Reply #88 on: May 22, 2013, 11:52:18 AM »
Salamun alaika,

No one can perceive anything else from your translation that the words after "and" relate to "given you".

Your sentence is combination of two sentences:
1) We have certainly given you seven of the often repeated.
2) We have certainly given you the great Qur'aan.

By combining these two sentences with conjunction "and" you have done the economy of one "We have certainly given you".

One thing more; in english your first sentence is incomplete --hence meaningless for the reader.

Please read about conjunctions in the grammar of any language to know how sentences are structured using conjunctions to avoid repetition of words for succintness.

Please don't mind when I suggest you to read about grammar of the language. Sincerely, let me tell you that without knowing grammar you know nothing of the text of any language and will keep conjecturing and roaming in vacuum.

Salaamun a3laika,

I am not surprised to see such a response from you, yes.

But please let me clarify the tricks you used to get favor from others or whatever.

- No one can? You should think about what you can, don't take burden on you of what others can.

- I replied in that way just to make clear what I wanted to say which you are fully aware of. And btw, it was not my sentence but it is a translation of an aayat of alQuraan which was translated by Sahih International, not me. Click on the aayat number in my previous post to confirm.

- Did I not given much evidences from alQuraan to support my point and you bring NONE?

- You already knew it that whether that sentence is incomplete or not, and again don't think about readers, but say, it is difficult for you to read and understand.

- Came up again with your big shield of learning grammar, thanks anyway for your advice, and please keep this tool to use it on others, I learned a lot about it, hence it is no more effecting me ;)

- No no no... I didn't mind it at all for sure... but would like to thank you for teaching me how to talk and trick people, and show ourselves clean [to others] and say everything that would like to.

Thank you Master Ji, for teaching me great lessons, but I suggest, please bring some new ones, old ones are already known ;)

Note: Please make it sure that it is my current understanding and it may change as Allah guides me.


May Allah show liars the place they deserve and guide US on His path :pr
mmKhan
6:162    قل إن صلاتي ونسكي ومحياي ومماتي لله رب العلمين
6:162    Say: My contact prayer, and my rites, and my life, and my death, are all to Allah, Lord of the worlds.
 
3:51

Mazhar

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Re: :: Who brought AlQuraan/AlKitaab? Muhammed? NO!!! ::
« Reply #89 on: May 22, 2013, 01:15:55 PM »
Quote
15:87 And We have certainly given you, seven of the often repeated and the great Qur'an.



Quote
No one can perceive anything else from your translation that the words after "and" relate to "given you".

Your sentence is combination of two sentences:
1) We have certainly given you seven of the often repeated.
2) We have certainly given you the great Qur'aan.

Salamun alaika,

I stand by this post. Let one English native on this forum come forward and deny it. Or even put your sentence in some auto parser and see what it tells you back. It is not a random process when words are arranged in sentences; the rules of grammar must be adhered to.
Let some sane person put this claim that he has the miraculous power of comprehending and writing in non-native language without knowing abc of grammar of that language. Obviously sane persons are not fools. So I don't expect anybody coming forward on this forum to make this claim.