I renounced my faith in the divinity of the Qur'an today

[GODsubmitter]

Thank you brother. I must admit I am extremely surprised to find that someone here actually agreed with me or felt the same way as me. I expected only skepticism. Good luck on your journey. The thing for me was that I had to accept I arrived at my current state of belief in a search for truth. I must put my search for truth before all things.

If God is truth then I pray that He guides me to Himself. If God is not truth then I must continue my search elsewhere.

I was attracted to Islam initially because I thought it was based on rationale and logic and reasoning and welcomed a monotheistic world view that could stand the test of critical thinking and deep criticism. Only when I had the COURAGE to face my beliefs and question the validity of why I believed what I believed did I overcome the barriers blocking my way to truth.

Thank you brother!
I do agree with you and I do feel the same way as you do!
I admire your honesty for voicing clearly your sincere doubts which are mine, too.
I support you in your faithful search for Truth.
I was also attracted to Islam for the same reasons, and now I feel almost sad, as robbed, and even as someone fooled.
All that root-grammar-traslation slosh cannot deserve any serious respect.
I was even told  that Quran has traps purposefully:

But I just wanted to make it clear that God has no difficulty in expressing Himself, but these hurdles has been kept in AlQuraan to score your points. Who crossed more hurdles successively, he scores the most. That's simple it is.

[/i]

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604075.msg301410#msg301410

strange... hurdles... games... scores... 

How bizarre for a god...

[lordfox]

Yet another that leaves Quranism, I should start counting now.

But of course, I too reject what you mistakenly denote as the Qu'ran, as the translations were proven to be corrupt, and the methodology wrong. Like Jafar pointed out, you do not need the Quran, or any other book to live as an honest man, for morality is universal, and the books, only reminders. I have found that most people who have studied the "Qu'ran" have come to the same conclusions as you, but fear veils their reason, and so they continue living in a lie.

Anyway, I applaud your honest and courage. Good luck for the rest!

[GODsubmitter]

Yet another one that leaves Quranism, I should start counting now.

But of course, I too reject what you mistakenly denote as the Qu'ran, as the translations were proven to be corrupt, and the methodology wrong. Like Jafar pointed out, you do not need the Quran, or any other book to live as an honest man, for morality is universal, and books, only reminders.

Good luck for the rest!

So god wrote the Quran for illiterate backward and primitive Arabs only?
Or for Arab aristocracy and elite? Translations not planned?
So it is not a universal message to all humanity and for all times, or is it?

And to which rest do you wish good luck? And what about the rest of the other rest? Or the ones who are not the rest? You do not wish them luck? 

[Bigmo]

Conflicts with reason and logic or conflict with the realities of life? I always believed that doubts come from the experinces of life and not the verses of the Quran. The Quran may state that God is merciful, but if you are expriencing trauma and pain its hard to comprehend that. It might state that God is fully aware of what we do and He supports the rigteous.Tthat is hard to believe when you are down and oppressed.Iit may say the disbelievers will never prosper but that is hard to understand when your boss is one like that and has the upper hand over you. It may state etc, etc, etc.

[lordfox]

So god wrote the Quran for illiterate backward and primitive Arabs only?
Or for Arab aristocracy and elite? Translations not planned?
So it is not a universal message to all humanity and for all times, or is it?

And to which rest do you wish good luck? And what about the rest of the other rest? Or the ones who are not the rest? You do not wish them luck? 

Why are you seeking defiance ? I meant good luck for the rest of his spiritual journey and life in general, I really cannot see how you misunderstood this. As for your question, it is interesting, the same could be argued for the previous revelations as well and sincerely, I do not know. How can a message be clear, when it cannot be understood universally, and can easily be intentionally obscured ? I am still unsure as to if, the Qu'ran claims itself to be for all times, and if it does, how and why, so I will abstain from commenting on that issue.

[Bender]

First seeming contradiction is the creation of the universe one. Several verses say the universe was made in 6 days or 6 periods or 6 eras or what have you.

But verse 41:9-12 adds the days up to 8. It took 2 days to create earth, 4 days to fill it up, and another 2 days to create the heavens.

Next is the verses about the Christians and the Jews. We have verses saying that they can go to paradise(2:62, 5:69) and then we have verses saying not to take them as friends(5:51). What sense does this make? Furthermore we have a verse saying to slay them(9:29).

Next, the Qur'an says that all good is from Allah and all evil is from ourselves right after it just told us that all good that befalls us is by Allah's command (4:78,79). I argued this with a companion the other day and he didn't believe me until I showed him the verse. When I voiced my concern he simply said to ask someone of knowledge.

The Qur'an says that he creates man from a clot (of blood?) but that goes against science.

The Qur'an says in 54:1 that the moon was cleft asunder. I guess the way to explain this is that it is a figurative not a literal verse. Quite convenient.

The biggest problem I have is a logical concept. God says in the Qur'an that NOBODY believes except by His will (10:100)

He goes on in the Qur'an several times to say that He hardens peoples hearts against belief and guides to Himself whom He wills and misguides others(16:93).

Now why would an all-Merciful and all-Powerful God punish someone who He Himself has decreed should not believe in Him? This makes no logical sense.


EDIT: What I will now propose are verses that are not contradictory in nature but I take issue with on moral or logical grounds.

First we have verse 4:34 which allows us to beat our wives. I take moral issue with this. Then We have the NUMEROUS verses about being able to have sexual relations with "those whom our right hands possess". Not only does this condone slavery but it also condones female sex slaves that are gained through war. God condones slavery and having sex with female captives?

The next verse I have issue with are verses that seem to serve the interest of Muhammad and don't seem too relevant for the believers.  The seemingly self-serving verses where I can see the biases of a 7th century man seeping through. If this is the direct word of God, the universal message from God to ALL humans of ALL time periods, then that means every single letter of this revelation is crucial to mankind's salvation.

So why in the world do I find myself reading rules about when I go to the Prophet's house I should not annoy him and I should leave as soon as I'm finished with my business, I cannot look at his wives unless from behind a veil, nobody can marry his wives after he dies, and he is allowed more wives than other believers (33:50-33:53). These are the signs of a cult. These "revelations" seem to directly benefit Muhammad and seem somewhat petty for an omniscient God to be revealing to all mankind.

Now finally we have one of the verses of the sword. Verse 9:29. My issue with how we reconcile these verses is people always tell me I'm reading out of context. That I need the historical context in which Muhammad was at war with the tribes of Bani Israel and so it doesn't apply to me anymore.

if this verse applies to only single point in human history, and the Qur'an is God's revelation for ALL mankind of ALL times then why is it even there?

Why would God give us verses He doesn't want us to follow? Who chooses which verses should still be followed and which ones should be discarded and applied to only the believers of Muhammad's time?

Salaam,

Thanks for sharing these "contraditions" and "problems" in The Quran.
I am not sure if you can read arabic characters, if you can then please read the verses again. Half of the things you mentioned is simply because of bad translations. Allah uses precise words, while in translations you can have 10 different translations for 1 arabic word or they translate 10 different arabic words in 1 way.
The other half of the problem is that you use hadiths and other sources besides The Quran to understand The Quran. I know you don't do this on purpose as this still effects all of us in some way without noticing it even when we claim that we are Quran alone.

Please try to take a fresh look on it. Just start over again but this time with a clear mind, thus without hadith understandings and other sources.
If you can't read the arabic characters and you are to lazy to to learn the arabic letters then a transliteration is more then enough.

Salaam,
Bender

[GODsubmitter]

You know, @Faithful-Jinn, I actually wanted, needed, and so much hoped, the Quran to be of God, and to be the real direct word of God, so much so, to avoid being led and misguided by humans, not to be at the mercy of transient and whimsical human opinions...

But it just resulted an impossibility: for one who is not Arab-speaking, one is dependent on human explanations and translations, and sheer luck can save you from total slosh in meanings and significations.
I realized that no better situation is for Arab-speaking neither.
So we are all forced to be referred and addressed to one another trying to clarify the mishmash with feeble and poor human means .

Hence the proliferation and creation of hadiths. No wonder. Hadiths are in. Mere need.

What a huge deception that God cannot express himself to all humanity and for all times...

Or "He" enjoys engaging us in verbal and grammatical jugglery all the time?

[GODsubmitter]

Why are you seeking defiance ? I meant good luck for the rest of his spiritual journey and life in general, I really cannot see how you misunderstood this. As for your question, it is interesting, the same could be argued for the previous revelations as well and sincerely, I do not know. How can a message be clear, when it cannot be understood universally, and can easily be intentionally obscured ? I am still unsure as to if, the Qu'ran claims itself to be for all times, and if it does, how and why, so I will abstain from commenting on that issue.

I am sorry if I misunderstood your good wishes. 
One should learn to express himself promptly in spite of media being the computer 

Thank you for sharing your doubts, too.
But you see, the previous Scriptures never claimed to be direct word of God or from god, just inspired by god...

[Bender]

You know, @Faithful-Jinn, I actually needed, and so much hoped, the Quran to be of God and the direct word of God, so to avoid being led and misguided by humans!

But it just resulted an impossibility: for one who is not Arab-speaking, one is dependent on human explanations and translations, and sheer luck can save you from total slosh in meanings and significations.
I realized that no better situation is for Arab-speaking neither.

Hence the proliferation and creation of hadiths. No wonder. Hadiths are in. Mere need.

What a huge deception that God cannot express himself to all humanity and for all times...

Or he enjoys us engaging in verbal and grammatical jugglery all the time?

Salaam,

This is not funny
It's not Allah who can't express his words but you are the one who is blind and deaf because you choose to be blind and deaf.
Please reconsider your words about Allah.

From your posts I can only see that you post youtube films and articles by others.
Did you ever tried to listen to The Quran so  that you can learn the characters of The Book so that you can study yourself the language of The Quran or do you want others to do the work for you and then complain that Allah can't express Himself?

[IAMOP]

Conflicts with reason and logic or conflict with the realities of life? I always believed that doubts come from the experinces of life and not the verses of the Quran. The Quran may state that God is merciful, but if you are expriencing trauma and pain its hard to comprehend that. It might state that God is fully aware of what we do and He supports the rigteous.Tthat is hard to believe when you are down and oppressed.Iit may say the disbelievers will never prosper but that is hard to understand when your boss is one like that and has the upper hand over you. It may state etc, etc, etc.

A very wise post indeed.

In this thread we see a very marked & common outcome of Sunni-ism's overruling of Sufi-ism. It's amazing how a struggle from back then is still sending shockwaves here and now. What do I mean by that? Had sufism been the dominant sect then most people would have approached God experientally rather than trying to logically piece together things. The problem with the logical approach is that incomplete information but perfect logic leads to grievously harmful conclusions as demonstrated in this thread.

We can never really know enough to say much. Had the OP and others approached their 'islam' from the meditative side they may have perhaps noticed God within themselves. From that side it is much easier to then fill in the logical aspects remaining aware of the incompleteness of one's knowledge and all the while the experiential evidence of God's presence alone is enough to keep doubt from gripping so hard it breaks the rope that God extends to a soul. How strange seeing people deny something that I could not dispute if I tried purely because my experience alone could not lie to me, to go against that would be to deny that which I am and to do that would be like closing my eyes and pretending I had never seen.

Or by analogy, to catch a glimpse of the finished puzzle thusly knowing that the pieces I have will fit, merely a matter of when.