Author Topic: Inheritance according to Qur’an  (Read 74003 times)

mirjamnur

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Re: Inheritance according to Qur’an
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2012, 06:48:07 AM »
Salam Noonwalqalami

4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine) فإن so if كن be نساء females فوق above اثنتين two (feminine) فلهن so for them ثلثا two thirds ما what ترك left وإن and if كانت she was واحدة one فلها so for her النصف the half ولأبويه and for their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left إن if كان is له to person ولد walad/son فإن so if لم not يكن is له to person ولد waladun child/born وورثه and heirs أبواه person’s parents (if only parents) فلأمه so to his mother الثلث the third فإن so if كان is له to person إخوة ikh'watun brothers/siblings (at least one male present) فلأمه so to his mother السدس the sixth من from بعد after وصية a will يوصي have made بها in it أو or دين judgment آباؤكم your parents وأبناؤكم and your children لا not تدرون you know أيهم which of them أقرب closer لكم to you نفعا benefit فريضة obligation من from الله The God إن indeed الله The God كان is عليما Knowing حكيما Wise[/b].


directs you The God in your CHILDREN (waladakum) to the male (al thakkar) like share the two feminine(al unthaiyn)...


God is clear in his testimony. He uses in 4.11 walad for children and clearly differentiated by Thakkar and Unthain the sexes.
It can be assumed that walad in this matter, the word refers to the children and not sons.
Then everything is much easier

now the example husband three daughters

4.12 husband become 1/4 because there are childrens
the daughters become all the rest, because there is no boy. i understand the 2/3 for the girls, when there are males also
because why 2/3 for whom the rest??? this would be illogical what you have proved...

wait, because to much Math in the morning ;) Allah may give me knowledge
peace

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Inheritance according to Qur’an
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2012, 01:37:14 PM »
directs you The God in your CHILDREN (waladakum) to the male (al thakkar) like share the two feminine(al unthaiyn)...


God is clear in his testimony. He uses in 4.11 walad for children and clearly differentiated by Thakkar and Unthain the sexes.
It can be assumed that walad in this matter, the word refers to the children and not sons.
Then everything is much easier

now the example husband three daughters

4.12 husband become 1/4 because there are childrens
the daughters become all the rest, because there is no boy. i understand the 2/3 for the girls, when there are males also
because why 2/3 for whom the rest??? this would be illogical what you have proved...

wait, because to much Math in the morning ;) Allah may give me knowledge
peace

Peace mirjamnur,

Take your time and clearly think it through before posting; it cannot be 2/3 for the girls when there are males.

It was explained in beginning of  thread the word can mean son, child, or born/begot...
37:152 ولد begot الله The God وإنهم and indeed they لكاذبون surely liars

Example: mother, father, husband, 3 daughters, son

If we give 3 daughters 2/3 and the parents 1/3 leaves nothing to give the husband and son.

4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine)  ولأبويه and for their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left إن if كان is له to person ولد walad/son

4:12 ولكم and for you نصف half ما what ترك left أزواجكم your spouse’s إن if لم not يكن is لهن for them ولد waladun child/born فإن so if كان is لهن for them ولد walad/son فلكم so for you الربع the fourth

If children mixed 2:1 ratio male to female always the case for mixed children or siblings.
If son = true 1/6 mother
If son = true 1/6 father
If son = true 1/4 husband

1 - 1/6 mother - 1/6 father - 1/4 husband = 5/12 children at 2:1 ratio male to female (1/12 x 3 daughters + 1/6 son)

mirjamnur

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Re: Inheritance according to Qur’an
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2012, 07:20:45 AM »
Salam
I will meditate over the problem :hmm :hail first in german and when i'm finished i will come back here. o.k?
thanks for your sabr...

peace

Wakas

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Re: Inheritance according to Qur’an
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2012, 12:05:51 PM »
salaam Nun,

Have you posted this on anti-Islam websites and asked them to refute? If so, please provide the links. Thanks.

If you have, and all attempts to refute have failed, then I am willing to offer help to develop a dedicated site for this, i.e. an online calculator. I have experience in such projects, e.g. AreYouMuslim.com, Learn-About-Islam.com, QuranConnection.com etc.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

StopS

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Re: Inheritance according to Qur’an
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2012, 04:29:51 PM »
It is quite funny to see my video used here as a challenge to the Koranic inheritance guidelines :)

The problem is simple: there are numerous calculators on the net concerning Islamic inheritance rules and laws. None of them really follow the rulings in the Koran and they differ between each other.

The reason is that a simple example will show that the mathematics used is insufficient to create a realistic solution, which leaves only one possibility: the sentences in question are merely allegorical and are there to serve not as accurate calculations but concepts.


Wakas

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Re: Inheritance according to Qur’an
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2012, 11:53:44 PM »
salaam/peace StopS,

Please provide the author of this thread with your "simple example".

Thanks.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

StopS

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Re: Inheritance according to Qur’an
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2012, 11:25:23 AM »

Please provide the author of this thread with your "simple example".


Sure, I was under the impression everybody knew it.

Calculate the inheritance for a wife, 3 daughters and 2 parents of a man who died.

1/8 wife/wives    3/24          have children, then for them of what you leave an eighth
2/3 daughters    16/24     women above two, then for them two-thirds of what he leaves
2/6 parents    8/24            parents to each one of the two the sixth of what he leaves

= 3 + 16 + 8 = 27/24

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Inheritance according to Qur’an
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2012, 12:35:27 PM »
salaam Nun,

Have you posted this on anti-Islam websites and asked them to refute? If so, please provide the links. Thanks.

If you have, and all attempts to refute have failed, then I am willing to offer help to develop a dedicated site for this, i.e. an online calculator. I have experience in such projects, e.g. AreYouMuslim.com, Learn-About-Islam.com, QuranConnection.com etc.

Peace Wakas,

Thank you for making this thread a sticky; it's for the benefit of those who seek understanding for their own souls and if they truly desire they'll be quided here. I have little interest in evangelizing or proving anything to anyone especially annoying missionaries, followers of hearsay, math deficiate numerologists or the godless aroused at miss-leading others into the abysss chanting...

"Our nada who art in nada, nada be thy name thy kingdom nada thy will be nada in nada as it is in nada. Give us this nada our daily nada and nada us our nada as we nada our nadas and nada us not into nada but deliver us from nada; pues nada [then nothing]. Hail nothing full of nothing, nothing is with thee."
― Ernest Hemingway http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clean,_Well-Lighted_Place


Noon waalqalami

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Re: Inheritance according to Qur’an
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2012, 12:36:35 PM »
It is quite funny to see my video used here as a challenge to the Koranic inheritance guidelines :)

The problem is simple: there are numerous calculators on the net concerning Islamic inheritance rules and laws. None of them really follow the rulings in the Koran and they differ between each other.

The reason is that a simple example will show that the mathematics used is insufficient to create a realistic solution, which leaves only one possibility: the sentences in question are merely allegorical and are there to serve not as accurate calculations but concepts.

Hello, peace and welcome StopS,

Your video was funny too and inaccurate according to Qur'an. In addition, the other sites and people that you were debating are clueless on the subject of inheritance verses, cannot follow simple instructions, and lack basic IF THEN ELSE logic.

Sure, I was under the impression everybody knew it.

Calculate the inheritance for a wife, 3 daughters and 2 parents of a man who died.

1/8 wife/wives    3/24          have children, then for them of what you leave an eighth
2/3 daughters    16/24     women above two, then for them two-thirds of what he leaves
2/6 parents    8/24            parents to each one of the two the sixth of what he leaves

= 3 + 16 + 8 = 27/24

All combinations and their appropriate mathamatical distributions were posted at beginning of this thread.

Here are the verses which if followed literally will give precise amounts without excess/shortfall.

4:11 يوصيكم directs you الله The God في in أولادكم your children للذكر to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine) فإن so if كن be نساء females فوق above اثنتين two (feminine) فلهن so for them ثلثا two thirds ما what ترك left وإن and if كانت she was واحدة one فلها so for her النصف the half ولأبويه and for their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left إن if كان is له to person ولد walad/son فإن so if لم not يكن is له to person ولد waladun child/born وورثه and heirs أبواه person’s parents (if only parents) فلأمه so to his mother الثلث the third فإن so if كان is له to person إخوة ikh'watun brothers/siblings (at least one male present) فلأمه so to his mother السدس the sixth من from بعد after وصية a will يوصي have made بها in it أو or دين judgment آباؤكم your parents وأبناؤكم and your children لا not تدرون you know أيهم which of them أقرب closer لكم to you نفعا benefit فريضة obligation من from الله The God إن indeed الله The God كان is عليما Knowing حكيما Wise

4:12 ولكم and for you نصف half ما what ترك left أزواجكم your spouse’s إن if لم not يكن is لهن for them ولد waladun child/born فإن so if كان is لهن for them ولد walad/son فلكم so for you الربع the fourth مما from what تركن they left من from بعد after وصية a will يوصين they made بها in it أو or دين judgment ولهن and for them الربع the fourth مما from what تركتم you left إن if لم not يكن is لكم to you ولد waladun child/born فإن so if كان is لكم to you ولد walad/son فلهن so for them الثمن the eight مما from what تركتم you left من from بعد after وصية a will توصون you made بها in it أو or دين judgment وإن and if كان is رجل a man يورث inherited كلالة kalālatan (fatherless spouseless) أو or امرأة woman وله and has أخ a brother أو or أخت sister فلكل so for each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth فإن so if كانوا they were أكثر more من from ذلك that فه so they مشركاء partners في in الثلث the third من from بعد after وصية a will يوصى is recommended بها in it أو or دين judgment غير not مضار harmful وصية a will من from الله The God والله and The God عليم Knowing حليم Forbearing

4:176 يستفتونك they seek your ruling قل say الله The God يفتيكم gives you a ruling في in الكلالة al-kalālati (the fatherless spouseless) إن if امرؤ a person هلك died ليس is not له to that person ولد waladun child/born وله and has أخت sister فلها so for her نصف half ما what ترك left وهو and he يرثها inherits it إن if لم not يكن is لها to her ولد waladun child/born فإن so if كانتا were اثنتين two (feminine) فلهما so to them الثلثان the two thirds مما from what ترك left وإن and if كانوا they were إخوة ikh'watun brothers/siblings رجالا men/males ونساء and females فللذكر so to the male مثل like حظ share الأنثيين the two (feminine) يبين clarifies الله The God لكم to you أن lest تضلوا you stray والله and The God بكل in every شيء a thing عليم Knowing


mother, father, husband/wife, 3 daughters: 1/9 1/9 1/9 2/3


Quote
Calculate the inheritance for a wife, 3 daughters and 2 parents of a man who died.

4:11 فإن so if كن be نساء females فوق above اثنتين two (feminine) فلهن so for them ثلثا two thirds
3 daughters = 2/3

4:11 ولأبويه and for their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left إن if كان is له to person ولد walad/son

IF son THEN each parent share = 1/6 ELSE parents share = variable/unstated
It's same as in case mother and son (1 - 1/6 mother = 5/6 son variable/unstated )

4:12... ولهن and for them الربع the fourth مما from what تركتم you left إن if لم not يكن is لكم to you ولد waladun child/born فإن so if كان is لكم to you ولد walad/son فلهن so for them الثمن the eight

IF no child/born THEN wife share = 1/4 (false, there are daughters i.e. children)
ELSE IF son THEN wife share = 1/8 (false, no son)
Thus wife share for this case = variable/unstated

Therefore: 1 - 2/3 (3 daughters, 2/9 each) = 1/3 (1/9 mother, 1/9 father, 1/9 wife)

StopS

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Re: Inheritance according to Qur’an
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2012, 01:56:44 PM »
Quote
4:11 فإن so if كن be نساء females فوق above اثنتين two (feminine) فلهن so for them ثلثا two thirds
3 daughters = 2/3

4:11 ولأبويه and for their parents لكل to each واحد one منهما from them السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left إن if كان is له to person ولد walad/son

IF son THEN each parent share = 1/6 ELSE parents share = variable/unstated
It's same as in case mother and son (1 - 1/6 mother = 5/6 son variable/unstated )

4:12... ولهن and for them الربع the fourth مما from what تركتم you left إن if لم not يكن is لكم to you ولد waladun child/born فإن so if كان is لكم to you ولد walad/son فلهن so for them الثمن the eight مما from what تركتم you left

IF no child/born THEN wife share = 1/4 (statement = false, there are daughters i.e. children)
ELSE if son THEN wife share = 1/8 (statement = false, no son)
ELSE wife share = variable/unstated

Therefore: 1 - 2/3 (3 daughters, 2/9 each) = 1/3 (1/9 mother, 1/9 father, 1/9 wife)

Could you drop the emotional garbage, please? Thanks. I would prefer a civilised discussion.

You are playing games. Please don't.

Quote
"And for his parents for each of them there is one-sixth of the inheritance if he has a child, but if he does not have a child and the parents are the heirs then for the mother one-third." [Quran 4:11]

The Arabic word "walad" has been variously translated as child, son, children and offspring by translators. However, there is universal agreement amongst the Sunni Muslim jurists that "walad" here refers to any child or agnatic grandchild (grandchild through son).

If there is a child or agnatic grandchild amongst the heirs then each of the parents inherits one-sixth. In the absence of a child or agnatic grandchild the mother inherits one-third, the share of the father is not mentioned under these circumstances. The father in fact inherits as a residuary (a residuary heir gets whatever remains of the inheritance after the Quranic sharers have been allocated their shares, residuary heirs are generally male agnates) under these circumstances.

http://www.kalamullah.com/fatwa13.html

This fatwa also interprets and deviates from the decree in the Koran by insinuating that the father receives what is left, which not in the Koranic text.

Another opinion says:

Quote
the Court stated simply that "so long as the deceased is survived by children, either male or female, the rights of inheritance of the deceased's blood relations, except for parents and spouse, are foreclosed". The only reasoning or authority cited in support of this interpretation was a brief reference to the views of Ibnu Abbas, one of the companions of the Prophet, who construed the word walad in Koran 4: 176 as embracing both male and female children.

Another one says:

Quote
The word 'walad' in in kana lahu walad (if he has children) and fa in lam ya kun lahu walad (if he does not have children) is used both for male and female children. In the Arabic language, this connotation is conventional and customary. Besides being used here, it has also been used subsequently where the shares of the spouses are stated. In this writer's opinion, in all these instances it has the same meaning. There is no contextual indication, intrinsic or extrinsic, to believe that the word has specifically been used for male children. Linguists maintain that it is used in the singular as well as the plural sense and, also, both for the masculine and the feminine gender. In all the cases mentioned, whether boys and girls in the indicated numbers are present or absent, these connotations of the word shall be considered understood.

This means that your view of walad being a single boy is not universally accepted.

Please show me where in the Koran it says that the inheritance is divided into shares which can be re-allocated?
Where in my example is there a son?
Please show me where in the Koran the 1/9 comes up.
Where is the adherence of the text which says very explicitly: "parents to each one of the two the sixth of what he leaves, if he has children" or "parents, a sixth share to each"???
What happened to the decree for the wives: "if you have children, then for them of what you leave an eighth"? Can 1/8 decided in the Koran, be changed to 1/9 by a human?

What you also leave out is the "bequeath for their widows a year's maintenance and residence" stated in 2:240, which is also not considered.

Sorry, but your argument is based on the obfuscation of a word, which you are re-assigning a new meaning to and then following it up with re-interpretation.