Night of the decree , Ramadan , Pilgrimage and the Restricted Months

[Alkitab الكتاب]

Salam
I find that very interesting. That would point to  a solaric year? what criteria would then determine the new year? By  Ayman's theory it is the 'red full moon' but this  falls away from  your theory- maybe the summer solstice?
Thanks for your response . 

salam

will be back to this incha allah soon

[kamking]

Salam Alkitab ,
Plz do explain who are Those People Who Do/did not witness Month of Ramadhan ?

[ayman]

These are some of my conclusion and points that i think are to be reviewed in the thread you post previously :

First " الأهله Alahilah "translated as  the crescent moons is not precisely correct , " الأهله Alahilah " come from the root "أهل A.H.L" mean to announce , mean the announcers , maybe the English translation i used here is not the best one but you will understand :
حرمت عليكم الميتة والدم ولحم الخنزير وما اهل لغير الله به والمنخنقة والموقوذة والمتردية والنطيحة وما اكل السبع الا ما ذكيتم وما ذبح على النصب وان تستقسموا بالازلام ذلكم فسق اليوم يئس الذين كفروا من دينكم فلا تخشوهم واخشون اليوم اكملت لكم دينكم واتممت عليكم نعمتي ورضيت لكم الاسلام دينا فمن اضطر في مخمصة غير متجانف لاثم فان الله غفور رحيم
5:3    Forbidden to you is that which is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was َAnnounced /dedicated to other than Allah , and that which has been strangled, and that which has been beaten to death, and that which has fallen from a height, and that which has been gored, and that which the wild animals have eaten from except what you managed to rescue, and what has been slaughtered on altars, and what you divide by the arrows of chance. This is vile.

in our place the guy who come at night to announce the time of eating before the dawn during Ramadan is called "َhalal الهلال " the announcer , but surely they look at the moon and its stages and announce the time of pilgrimage and other events. this is why the quran said to the guy used to tell people about this timing to not come from the back of the homes to announce this timing for pilgrimage and other events , because that thought is a piety to do so , so the Quran tell them to announce this timing by coming from the front of the homes and piety is about being righteous , because they thought that hiding from the women of the home would be more piety so it tell them come from the front and be righteous  :

يسالونك عن الاهلة قل هي مواقيت للناس والحج وليس البر بان تاتوا البيوت من ظهورها ولكن البر من اتقى واتوا البيوت من ابوابها واتقوا الله لعلكم تفلحون
2:189    They ask you regarding the  Announcement , say: "They are a timing mechanism for the people and the Pilgrimage." And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whoever is righteous and comes to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of Allah that you may succeed.

How are "announcements" a timing mechanism?? Don't "announcements" themselves need to be timed by something?

So what doesThe root "R.M.D ر م ض" mean :
This is the etymological examination of that root from the book dictionary " Makayeesse Alogha معجم مقاييس اللغة"
( رمض ) الراء والميم والضاد أصل مطرد يدل على حدة في شيء من حر وغيره . فالرمض : حر الحجارة من شدة حر الشمس . وأرض رمضة : حارة الحجارة . وذكر قوم أن رمضان اشتقاقه من شدة الحر ; لأنهم لما نقلوا اسم الشهور عن اللغة القديمة سموها بالأزمنة ، فوافق رمضان أيام رمض الحر . ويجمع على رمضانات وأرمضاء . ومن الباب أرمضه الأمر ورمض للأمر .
ورمض أيضا ، إذا أحرقته الرمضاء . ويقال رمضت اللحم على الرضف ، إذا أنضجته . ومن الباب سكين رميض . وكل حاد رميض . وقد رمضته أنا . ورمضت الغنم ، إذا رعت في شدة الحر فقرحت أكبادها . ويقال : فلان يترمض الظباء ، إذا تبعها وساقها حتى تفسخ قوائمها من الرمضاء ثم يأخذها . ويقال ارتمض بطنه : فسد ، كأن ثم داء يحرقه . فأما قول القائل : أتيت فلانا فلم أصبه فرمضت ترميضا ، وذلك أن ينتظره . وممكن أن يكون شاذا عن الأصل . ويمكن أن يكون الميم مبدلة من باء ، كأنه ربضت ، من ربض .
This is the etymological examination of that root from the book dictionary " Lissan Alarab لسان العرب"
[ رمض ]
رمض : الرمض والرمضاء : شدة الحر . والرمض : حر الحجارة من شدة حر الشمس ، وقيل : هو الحر والرجوع عن المبادي إلى المحاضر ، وأرض رمضة الحجارة . والرمض : شدة وقع الشمس على الرمل وغيره ، والأرض رمضاء . ومنه حديث عقيل : فجعل يتتبع الفيء من شدة الرمض ، وهو ، بفتح الميم ، المصدر ، يقال : رمض يرمض رمضا . ورمض الإنسان رمضا : مضى على الرمضاء ، والأرض رمضة . ورمض يومنا ، بالكسر ، يرمض رمضا : اشتد حره . وأرمض الحر القوم : اشتد عليهم . والرمض : مصدر قولك رمض الرجل يرمض رمضا إذا احترقت قدماه في شدة الحر ; وأنشد :
فهن معترضات والحصى رمض والريح ساكنة والظل معتدل
ورمضت قدمه من الرمضاء أي : احترقت . ورمضت الغنم ترمض رمضا إذا رعت في شدة الحر فحبنت رئاتها وأكبادها وأصابها فيها قرح . وفي الحديث : صلاة الأوابين إذا رمضت الفصال ; وهي الصلاة التي سنها سيدنا رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم في وقت الضحى عند ارتفاع النهار . وفي الصحاح : أي : إذا وجد الفصيل حر الشمس من الرمضاء ، يقول : فصلاة الضحى تلك الساعة ; قال ابن الأثير : هو أن تحمى الرمضاء ، وهي الرمل فتبرك الفصال من شدة حرها وإحراقها أخفافها . وفي الحديث : فلم تكتحل حتى كادت عيناها ترمضان ، يروى بالضاد ، من الرمضاء وشدة الحر . وفي حديث صفية : تشكت عينيها حتى كادت ترمض ، فإن روي بالضاد أراد حتى تحمى . ورمض الفصال : أن تحترق الرمضاء وهو الرمل فتبرك الفصال من شدة حرها وإحراقها أخفافها وفراسنها . ويقال : رمض الراعي مواشيه وأرمضها إذا رعاها في الرمضاء وأربضها عليها .وقال عمر بن الخطاب ، رضي الله عنه ، لراعي الشاء : عليك الظلف من الأرض لا ترمضها ; والظلف من الأرض : المكان الغليظ الذي لا رمضاء فيه . وأرمضتني الرمضاء أي : أحرقتني . يقال : رمض الراعي ماشيته وأرمضها إذا رعاها في الرمضاء . والترمض : صيد الظبي في وقت الهاجرة تتبعه حتى إذا تفسخت قوائمه من شدة الحر أخذته . وترمضنا الصيد : رميناه في الرمضاء حتى احترقت قوائمه فأخذناه . [ ص: 225 ] ووجدت في جسدي رمضة أي : كالمليلة . والرمض : حرقة الغيظ . وقد أرمضه الأمر ورمض له ، وقد أرمضني هذا الأمر فرمضت ; قال رؤبة :
ومن تشكى مغلة الإرماض     أو خلة أعركت بالإحماض
قال أبو عمرو : الإرماض كل ما أوجع . يقال : أرمضني أي : أوجعني . وارتمض الرجل من كذا أي : اشتد عليه وأقلقه ; وأنشد ابن بري :
إن أحيحا مات من غير مرض     ووجد في مرمضه حيث ارتمض
عساقل وجبأ فيها قضض
وارتمضت كبده : فسدت . وارتمضت لفلان : حزنت له . و
وارتمضت كبده : فسدت . وارتمضت لفلان : حزنت له . والرمضي من السحاب والمطر : ما كان في آخر القيظ وأول الخريف ، فالسحاب رمضي والمطر رمضي ، وإنما سمي رمضيا لأنه يدرك سخونة الشمس وحرها . والرمض : المطر يأتي قبل الخريف فيجد الأرض حارة محترقة . والرمضية : آخر المير ، وذلك حين تحترق الأرض لأن أول المير الربعية ثم الصيفية ثم الدفئية ، ويقال : الدثئية ثم الرمضية . ورمضان : من أسماء الشهور معروف ، قال :
ثم الرمضية [/u]. ورمضان : من أسماء الشهور معروف ، قال :
جارية في رمضان الماضي     تقطع الحديث بالإيماض
أي : إذا تبسمت قطع الناس حديثهم ونظروا إلى ثغرها . قال أبو عمر مطرز : هذا خطأ ، الإيماض لا يكون في الفم إنما يكون في العينين ، وذلك أنهم كانوا يتحدثون فنظرت إليهم فاشتغلوا بحسن نظرها عن الحديث ومضت ، والجمع رمضانات ورماضين وأرمضاء وأرمضة وأرمض ; عن بعض أهل اللغة ، وليس بثبت . قال مطرز : كان مجاهد يكره أن يجمع رمضان ويقول : بلغني أنه اسم من أسماء الله عز وجل قال ابن دريد : لما نقلوا أسماء الشهور عن اللغة القديمة سموها بالأزمنة التي هي فيها فوافق رمضان أيام رمض الحر وشدته فسمي به . الفراء يقال هذا شهر رمضان ، وهما شهرا ربيع ، ولا يذكر الشهر مع سائر أسماء الشهور العربية . يقال : هذا شعبان قد أقبل . وشهر رمضان مأخوذ من رمض الصائم يرمض إذا حر جوفه من شدة العطش ، قال الله عز وجل : شهر رمضان الذي أنزل فيه القرآن وشاهد شهري ربيع قول أبي ذؤيب :
به أبلت شهري ربيع كليهما     فقد مار فيها نسؤها واقترارها
نسؤها : سمنها . واقترارها : شبعها . وأتاه فلم يصبه فرمض : وهو أن ينتظره شيئا . الكسائي : أتيته فلم أجده فرمضته ترميضا ; قال شمر : ترميضه أن تنتظره شيئا ثم تمضي . ورمض I . ابن السكيت : الرمض مصدر رمضت النصل رمضا إذا جعلته بين حجرين ثم دققته ليرق . وسكين رميض بين الرماضة أي : حديد . وشفرة رميض ونصل رميض أي : وقيع ، وأنشد ابن بري للوضاح بن إسماعيل :
وإن شئت فاقتلنا بموسى رميضة     جميعا فقطعنا بها عقد العرا
وكل حاد رميض . ورمضته أنا أرمضه وأرمضه إذا جعلته بين حجرين أملسين ثم دققته ليرق . وفي الحديث : إذا مدحت الرجل في وجهه فكأنما أمررت على حلقه موسى رميضا ; قال شمر : الرميض الحديد الماضي ; فعيل بمعنى مفعول ; وقال :
I highlight all the explanation that has connection of the root "R.M.D رمض " as being a result of the heat not the heat itself , look at the first examination of the root in  " Makayeesse Alogha معجم مقاييس اللغة" dictionary it says : 
( رمض ) الراء والميم والضاد أصل مطرد يدل على حدة في شيء من حر وغيره
** "R.M.D رمض " is a "basic origin root" that is "steady, uniform, equable" who mean a "sharpnessحده" in something from the heat or something else
**ومن الباب سكين رميض a sharp knife
how to make a knife sharp ?  you need to heat the iron and hit it , again becoming sharp is a cause of the steady heat.
** رمضت اللحم على الرضف ، إذا أنضجته  using the verb "Ramadtou رمضت "as to putting a piece of meat under the fire to cock it , the physical scientific phenomena in this action is simply about drying the meat from water by the heat , the same thing that the sun/summer season do to the earth/ trees / and all organic entities. again becoming cocked is a cause of the steady heat.
** look at this as its one of the interesting examination of the that root :
والرمضي من السحاب والمطر : ما كان في آخر القيظ وأول الخريف ، فالسحاب رمضي والمطر رمضي ، وإنما سمي رمضيا لأنه يدرك سخونة الشمس وحرها . والرمض : المطر يأتي قبل الخريف فيجد الأرض حارة محترقة . والرمضية : آخر المير ، وذلك حين تحترق الأرض لأن أول المير الربعية ثم الصيفية ثم الدفئية ، ويقال : الدثئية ثم الرمضية .
First You can notice that when they talking about seasons they are placing "Arramdiah الرمضيه as the last period / time of the weathers/ seasons of the year  والرمضية : آخر المير , notice also that there is a rain called "Ramdi رمضي " they said because he reach the last heat of the season .
For my understanding the general conclusion from this examination of that root "R.M.D رمض" is that it doesn't mean the heat but is caused by the heat , the heat is causing the phenomena of  "R.M.D رمض" witch  we can translate to English as the state of the earth/ trees in the season of autumn , being dry , witch is a phenomena coming after the season of the hot/ summer.
Now i'll make the connection between "Ramadan رمضان" - as being the last month of the year when the earth is dry and the leaves are falling from trees -  and" the night of the decree ليله القدر" witch will connect also to the greater day of pilgrimage , the ten fasting days/night , and the 4 restricted months.
any interruption or comments are very welcomed
يتبع...To be continued[/font][/font]
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All the meanings point to heat, which is not associated with fall. Also, "sayf" means spring not summer. So the "ramadiya" that comes after "sayf" would be in the summer. 

Peace,

Ayman

[ayman]

Surely not witnessing the revelation as it makes no sense at all.
In my understanding (2:185 (...) Therefore, THOSE OF YOU WHO WITNESS THE MONTH shall fast therein.)
Mean        :    Those of you who are present  at the time of the manifestation of the month of Ramadan knowing that this month occur in a specific time/season during the year and that seasons move gradually according to the earth / Sun positions ( as far as i know ) ,by the time autumn or winter season are manifesting in Arabia there is hot or spring manifesting in the opposite side. And also by the time there is a full moon raised somewhere announcing the first night of Ramadan there will be still daylight somewhere else , so it sound logic that you ,for example , being in a place where you witnessing the raising full moon or other celestial or climatic singes announcing fasting start for you while i am in another place where those singes didn't occur yet .   so while you are among  those who :  2:185 (...) Therefore, THOSE OF YOU WHO WITNESS THE MONTH shall fast therein.)   i still not yet among them as i didn't yet witness what you witnessed  , logic , no ?

Could you point to any other place in the great reading where the verb "shahid" means to be present instead of to witness?

Also, everyone is present so what is the purpose of the conditional statement? This makes the conditional meaningless.

Peace,

Ayman

[Alkitab الكتاب]

How are "announcements" a timing mechanism?? Don't "announcements" themselves need to be timed by something?

All the meanings point to heat, which is not associated with fall. Also, "sayf" means spring not summer. So the "ramadiya" that comes after "sayf" would be in the summer. 

Peace,

Ayman

Salam ,
There was a mistake in the English translation of the verse below i saw it before and forget to corrected it :

يسالونك عن الاهلة قل هي مواقيت للناس والحج وليس البر بان تاتوا البيوت من ظهورها ولكن البر من اتقى واتوا البيوت من ابوابها واتقوا الله لعلكم تفلحون
2:189    They ask you regarding the  Announcement , say: "They are a appointed times  for the people and the Pilgrimage." And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whoever is righteous and comes to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of Allah that you may succeed.

The " Al-ahilah / الأهله / Announcements " are surely not a time mechanism but appointed times , i already mentioned in some of my previous posts that the guys who announce the appointed times for pilgrimage and other events use a known method at that time to determine the date/ time of these vents.  Those mechanism / singes was known and used by the other communities who have knowledge from the previous books and from the verse it show up that  " الأميين Al-Omyeen/the community of Mohamed PBUH who do not have knowledge from the book " wasn't the people responsible for determining and calling for pilgrimage and other events this is why they asked the prophet about it in the above verse , the verse start with : 2:189    They asking you regarding the  Announcement , say: "They are a appointed times  for the people and the Pilgrimage." And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whoever is righteous and comes to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of Allah that you may succeed. 

From the Quran its show up also that determining the time for pilgrimage was known at the time of Abrahim , the command below is to Abrahim to call for pelgrimage   :

وَإِذْ بَوَّأْنَا لِإِبْرَاهِيمَ مَكَانَ الْبَيْتِ أَن لّا تُشْرِكْ بِي شَيْئًا وَطَهِّرْ بَيْتِيَ لِلطَّائِفِينَ وَالْقَائِمِينَ وَالرُّكَّعِ السُّجُودِ

وَأَذِّن فِي النَّاسِ بِالْحَجِّ يَأْتُوكَ رِجَالا وَعَلَى كُلِّ ضَامِرٍ يَأْتِينَ مِن كُلِّ فَجٍّ عَمِيقٍ

22:27 and proclaim among Mankind the Pilgrimage, and they shall come unto thee on foot and upon every lean beast, they shall come from every deep ravine

[Alkitab الكتاب]

All the meanings point to heat, which is not associated with fall. Also, "sayf" means spring not summer. So the "ramadiya" that comes after "sayf" would be in the summer. 

Peace,

Ayman

The  "Al-Ramdiya الرمضيه" as mentioned in the Lissan Al-ََArab dictionary when the root "R.M.Dرمض" was examined the author mentioned it as the last 4th season/period it come after "Al-Dafeia  الدفئية "
آخر المير ، وذلك حين تحترق الأرض لأن أول المير الربعية ثم الصيفية ثم الدفئية ، ويقال : الدثئية ثم الرمضية .
so the "Ramdiya الرمضيه" did not come till the 3th season / period is finished , the 3th one is not " Al-Sayfia الصيفيه "   as you can see but its  "Al-Dafeia  الدفئية " from the 3th root " D.F.A د ف أ " :
[ دفأ ]

دفأ : الدفء والدفأ : نقيض حدة البرد ، والجمع أدفاء

the opposite of the extreme cold is the extreme heat he named it  "Al-Dafeia  الدفئية "

the author give this 3th season / period another name" Al-Dateia الدثئية"  from the root

[ دثأ ]

دثأ : الدثئي من المطر : الذي يأتي بعد اشتداد الحر . قال ثعلب : هو الذي يجيء إذا قاءت الأرض الكمأة ، والدثئي : نتاج الغنم في الصيف ، كل ذلك صيغ صيغة النسب وليس بنسب .

the author named the "Al-Datei الدثئي " as the rain that come after the extreme heat

Yes I agree with you  that "Al-syaef الصيف " doesn't mean the summer time it doesn't mean the extreme heat  but the heat rise gradually from spring till the extreme heat period , and after the most heat period in the year the temperature start to fall down a little bit this gap / period come before the winter and after the extreme heat the author named it "Al-Ramdiya الرمضيه" witch is  automatically related to the fall season  do winter time raining and cold nights come after the extreme hot period ? no there is a gape between ! , here is another comparative quote from Lissan Al-arab from the exsamination of the root " S.Y.F ص ي ف "
[ صيف ]

صيف : الصيف : من الأزمنة معروف ، وجمعه أصياف وصيوف . ويوم صائف . أي حار
الليث : الصيف ربع من أرباع السنة وعند العامة نصف السنة . قال الأزهري : الصيف عند العرب الفصل الذي تسميه عوام الناس بالعراق وخراسان الربيع ، وهي ثلاثة أشهر ، والفصل الذي يليه عند العرب القيظ ، وفيه يكون حمراء القيظ ، ثم بعده فصل الخريف ، ثم بعده فصل الشتاء

the author placed the period of "َAl-Sayf  الصيف " as being before the extreme heat followed by the fall season and then winter

Note that the comparative wording studies are not as accurate as the study comparatively from the Quran itself , what i mean is the tongue and the words used in the Quran are the final judgement above these dictionaries , i am sure you know that . i only used them as comparative.

Note also that i am not assuming that the solar based system to be used instead of  the Lunar based system to determine the  "appointed time المواقيت"  and Ramadan period as i personally know that both of the systems are a one system and each one has its role , can the moon shine on at the night without the sun ? i most likely uphold that the "appointed time المواقيت" is determined / known by full moon plus + another celestial singes namely "planet كوكب" and or " stars نجوم" and of course these "appointed time المواقيت" will coincide with a period/season of the year these season are caused by the position of the sun , so logically all the systems  : The moonالقمر + "planet كوكب" + " stars نجوم" + " the sun الشمس " will all be in a state while the time of the event come , now what is the first singe from these systems to indicate the beginning of the event ( Ramadan , pilgrimage , night of the decree ) ?
i am doing a study that i didn't finished yet , will post it soon .

[Alkitab الكتاب]

Salam Alkitab ,
Plz do explain who are Those People Who Do/did not witness Month of Ramadhan ?

Could you point to any other place in the great reading where the verb "shahid" means to be present instead of to witness?

Also, everyone is present so what is the purpose of the conditional statement? This makes the conditional meaningless.

Peace,

Ayman

Salam kamking / Ayman ,

These are some verses from the Quran with the verb root "Sh h d شهد " (you wrote it  "shahid شاهد "  with the sound vowel / movement "aا" wich is no more a verb it become a noun,  nowhere in the Quran  "shahid شاهد " is mentioned as verb only as  a noun :

قل ارايتم ان كان من عند الله وكفرتم به وشهد شاهد من بني اسرائيل على مثله فامن واستكبرتم ان الله لا يهدي القوم الظالمين
Say:46:10 'Have you considered? If it be from Allah , and you disbelieve in it, and a witness from among the Children of Israel hears witness to its like, and believes, and you wax proud, Allah guides not the people of the evildoers.

قال هي راودتني عن نفسي وشهد شاهد من اهلها ان كان قميصه قد من قبل فصدقت وهو من الكاذبين
Arberry: 12:26 Said he, 'It was she that solicited me'; and a witness of her folk bore witness, 'If his shirt has been torn from before then she has spoken truly, and he is one of the liars.

ولا يملك الذين يدعون من دونه الشفاعة الا من شهد بالحق وهم يعلمون
43:86 And those unto whom they invoke instead of Him possess no power of intercession, only he who bears witness unto the Truth knowingly.

the verbe  "Sh h d شهد " is followed by the noun  "Shahd شاهد " in all three verses above  "Ch h d شهد " mean to witness and as you can see "the witness  Al-Shahd الشاهد" didn't see the event physically he is not witnessing the action with his eyes in a place.

now look at these other verses :

الزانية والزاني فاجلدوا كل واحد منهما مائة جلدة ولا تاخذكم بهما رافة في دين الله ان كنتم تؤمنون بالله واليوم الاخر وليشهد عذابهما طائفة من المؤمنين
Arberry: 24:2 The fornicatress and the fornicator -- scourge each one of them a hundred stripes, and in the matter of Allah's system let no tenderness for them seize you if you believe in allah and the Last Day; and let a party of the believers witness their chastisement.

أَذِّن فِي النَّاسِ بِالْحَجِّ يَأْتُوكَ رِجَالا وَعَلَى كُلِّ ضَامِرٍ يَأْتِينَ مِن كُلِّ فَجٍّ عَمِيقٍ
لِيَشْهَدُوا مَنَافِعَ لَهُمْ وَيَذْكُرُوا اسْمَ اللَّهِ فِي أَيَّامٍ مَّعْلُومَاتٍ عَلَى مَا رَزَقَهُم مِّن بَهِيمَةِ الأَنْعَامِ فَكُلُوا مِنْهَا وَأَطْعِمُوا الْبَائِسَ الْفَقِيرَ
Arberry: 22:27/28 and proclaim among Mankind  the Pilgrimage, and they shall come unto thee on foot and upon every lean beast, they shall come from every deep ravine. that they may witness things profitable to them and mention Allah's Name on days well-known over such beasts of the flocks as He has provided them: "So eat thereof, and feed the wretched poor."

قالوا تقاسموا بالله لنبيتنه واهله ثم لنقولن لوليه ما شهدنا مهلك اهله وانا لصادقون
Arberry: 27:49 they said, 'Swear you, one to another, by Allah, "We will attack him and his family by night, then we will tell his protector, We were not witnesses of the destruction of his family; and assuredly we are truthful men."'

in this  verses  "Sh h d شهد "  also mean to witness but by being present at the time when the action acquired ,  mean to witness by being present to see the fact or the action or the event by your eyes.

So the word  "Sh h d شهد " mean to witness wither as a testimony without seeing with your eyes or witnessing as being present and seeing / looking at fact and actions happening front of you  .

I saw the word "Sh h d شهد " in verse 2:185 as being from the second case mean witnessing the month of Ramadan by being present while  the singes / manifestations at the beginning of that month acquired :

2:185 The month of Ramadan, in which the Quran was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, THOSE OF YOU WHO WITNESS THE MONTH shall fast therein. Whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. Allah wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify Allah because He has guided you, that you may be thankful.

if these verse is saying that " THOSE OF YOU WHO WITNESS THE MONTH" it absolutely mean there are some who will not be able to witness it , if the command was to all the believers  the command in my understanding should be like this :  " O believers IF YOU WITNESS THE MONTH"  but the verse doesn't say that , its an exception by using the arabic sound/letter "منكم Minkom mean "those among you " ,

an exemple from some verses with the sound letter " من MN / Among"   :

ولقد علمتم الذين اعتدوا منكم في السبت فقلنا لهم كونوا قردة خاسئين
2:65 And certainly you have known those among you who exceeded the limits of the Sabbath, so We said to them: Be (as) apes, despised and hated.

ان الذين تولوا منكم يوم التقى الجمعان انما استزلهم الشيطان ببعض ما كسبوا ولقد عفا الله عنهم ان الله غفور حليم
3:155 Those among you who turned away the day the two hosts encountered -- Satan made them slip for somewhat they had earned; but Allah has pardoned them; Allah is All-forgiving, All-clement.

In all these verses " من MN / Among" mean among , or a part from the whole community , and its with the same meaning in the verse 2:185 , it mean the part or the ones among the believers who witnessed the month .

[ayman]

There was a mistake in the English translation of the verse below i saw it before and forget to corrected it :
يسالونك عن الاهلة قل هي مواقيت للناس والحج وليس البر بان تاتوا البيوت من ظهورها ولكن البر من اتقى واتوا البيوت من ابوابها واتقوا الله لعلكم تفلحون
2:189    They ask you regarding the  Announcement , say: "They are a appointed times  for the people and the Pilgrimage." And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whoever is righteous and comes to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of Allah that you may succeed.
The " Al-ahilah / الأهله / Announcements " are surely not a time mechanism but appointed times , i already mentioned in some of my previous posts that the guys who announce the appointed times for pilgrimage and other events use a known method at that time to determine the date/ time of these vents.  Those mechanism / singes was known and used by the other communities who have knowledge from the previous books and from the verse it show up that  " الأميين Al-Omyeen/the community of Mohamed PBUH who do not have knowledge from the book " wasn't the people responsible for determining and calling for pilgrimage and other events this is why they asked the prophet about it in the above verse , the verse start with : 2:189    They asking you regarding the  Announcement , say: "They are a appointed times  for the people and the Pilgrimage." And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whoever is righteous and comes to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of Allah that you may succeed. 
From the Quran its show up also that determining the time for pilgrimage was known at the time of Abrahim , the command below is to Abrahim to call for pelgrimage    :
وَإِذْ بَوَّأْنَا لِإِبْرَاهِيمَ مَكَانَ الْبَيْتِ أَن لّا تُشْرِكْ بِي شَيْئًا وَطَهِّرْ بَيْتِيَ لِلطَّائِفِينَ وَالْقَائِمِينَ وَالرُّكَّعِ السُّجُودِ
وَأَذِّن فِي النَّاسِ بِالْحَجِّ يَأْتُوكَ رِجَالا وَعَلَى كُلِّ ضَامِرٍ يَأْتِينَ مِن كُلِّ فَجٍّ عَمِيقٍ
22:27 and proclaim among Mankind the Pilgrimage, and they shall come unto thee on foot and upon every lean beast, they shall come from every deep ravine

So how did Abarham determine the timing? How did he decide when to call for it?? Again, you didn't answer the question. How are the so-called announcements "timing" if they themselves need to be timed??

Peace,

Ayman

[ayman]

The  "Al-Ramdiya الرمضيه" as mentioned in the Lissan Al-ََArab dictionary when the root "R.M.Dرمض" was examined the author mentioned it as the last 4th season/period it come after "Al-Dafeia  الدفئية "
آخر المير ، وذلك حين تحترق الأرض لأن أول المير الربعية ثم الصيفية ثم الدفئية ، ويقال : الدثئية ثم الرمضية .
so the "Ramdiya الرمضيه" did not come till the 3th season / period is finished , the 3th one is not " Al-Sayfia الصيفيه "   as you can see but its  "Al-Dafeia  الدفئية " from the 3th root " D.F.A د ف أ " :
[ دفأ ]
دفأ : الدفء والدفأ : نقيض حدة البرد ، والجمع أدفاء

the opposite of the extreme cold is the extreme heat he named it  "Al-Dafeia  الدفئية "
the author give this 3th season / period another name" Al-Dateia الدثئية"  from the root
[ دثأ ]
دثأ : الدثئي من المطر : الذي يأتي بعد اشتداد الحر . قال ثعلب : هو الذي يجيء إذا قاءت الأرض الكمأة ، والدثئي : نتاج الغنم في الصيف ، كل ذلك صيغ صيغة النسب وليس بنسب .

the author named the "Al-Datei الدثئي " as the rain that come after the extreme heat
Yes I agree with you  that "Al-syaef الصيف " doesn't mean the summer time it doesn't mean the extreme heat  but the heat rise gradually from spring till the extreme heat period , and after the most heat period in the year the temperature start to fall down a little bit this gap / period come before the winter and after the extreme heat the author named it "Al-Ramdiya الرمضيه" witch is  automatically related to the fall season  do winter time raining and cold nights come after the extreme hot period ? no there is a gape between ! , here is another comparative quote from Lissan Al-arab from the exsamination of the root " S.Y.F ص ي ف "
[ صيف ]
صيف : الصيف : من الأزمنة معروف ، وجمعه أصياف وصيوف . ويوم صائف . أي حار
الليث : الصيف ربع من أرباع السنة وعند العامة نصف السنة . قال الأزهري : الصيف عند العرب الفصل الذي تسميه عوام الناس بالعراق وخراسان الربيع ، وهي ثلاثة أشهر ، والفصل الذي يليه عند العرب القيظ ، وفيه يكون حمراء القيظ ، ثم بعده فصل الخريف ، ثم بعده فصل الشتاء
the author placed the period of "َAl-Sayf  الصيف " as being before the extreme heat followed by the fall season and then winter
Note that the comparative wording studies are not as accurate as the study comparatively from the Quran itself , what i mean is the tongue and the words used in the Quran are the final judgement above these dictionaries , i am sure you know that . i only used them as comparative.
Note also that i am not assuming that the solar based system to be used instead of  the Lunar based system to determine the  "appointed time المواقيت"  and Ramadan period as i personally know that both of the systems are a one system and each one has its role , can the moon shine on at the night without the sun ? i most likely uphold that the "appointed time المواقيت" is determined / known by full moon plus + another celestial singes namely "planet كوكب" and or " stars نجوم" and of course these "appointed time المواقيت" will coincide with a period/season of the year these season are caused by the position of the sun , so logically all the systems  : The moonالقمر + "planet كوكب" + " stars نجوم" + " the sun الشمس " will all be in a state while the time of the event come , now what is the first singe from these systems to indicate the beginning of the event ( Ramadan , pilgrimage , night of the decree ) ?
i am doing a study that i didn't finished yet , will post it soon .

Yes. This confirms what I said earlier, which is that in Classical Arabic "sayf" doesn't mean summer. Summer means "qayz" and "sayf" coincides with "spring" or "late spring" depending on whether we refer to the four season or six season systems that the Arabs used.

The scorching heat (ramadan) comes in "qayz", which is after "sayf". On the other hand, back then "kharif" was not after "sayf" like it is today.

As for you assuming that the solar system is not used, I think 17:12 makes it absolutely certain that the solar system must be used since the amount of "day" and "night" are a function of the sun cycle and not the moon or the stars:

17.12. We have made the night and the day as two signs: the sign of the night We have obscured, while the sign of the day we have made visible so that you may seek favors from your Lord, and so that you may know the number of years and the calculation, and We have explained all things in detail.

وَجَعَلْنَا اللَّيْلَ وَالنَّهَارَ آيَتَيْنِ فَمَحَوْنَا آيَةَ اللَّيْلِ وَجَعَلْنَا آيَةَ النَّهَارِ مُبْصِرَةً لِتَبْتَغُواْ فَضْلاً مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ وَلِتَعْلَمُواْ عَدَدَ السِّنِينَ وَالْحِسَابَ وَكُلَّ شَيْءٍ فَصَّلْنَاهُ تَفْصِيلاً

This leaves no doubt that we need to consider the amount of light and darkness to determine the year.

Peace,

Ayman

[ayman]

Peace Alkitab,

Salam kamking / Ayman ,
These are some verses from the Quran with the verb root "Sh h d شهد " (you wrote it  "shahid شاهد "  with the sound vowel / movement "aا" wich is no more a verb it become a noun,  nowhere in the Quran  "shahid شاهد " is mentioned as verb only as  a noun :
قل ارايتم ان كان من عند الله وكفرتم به وشهد شاهد من بني اسرائيل على مثله فامن واستكبرتم ان الله لا يهدي القوم الظالمين
Say:46:10 'Have you considered? If it be from Allah , and you disbelieve in it, and a witness from among the Children of Israel hears witness to its like, and believes, and you wax proud, Allah guides not the people of the evildoers.
قال هي راودتني عن نفسي وشهد شاهد من اهلها ان كان قميصه قد من قبل فصدقت وهو من الكاذبين
Arberry: 12:26 Said he, 'It was she that solicited me'; and a witness of her folk bore witness, 'If his shirt has been torn from before then she has spoken truly, and he is one of the liars.
ولا يملك الذين يدعون من دونه الشفاعة الا من شهد بالحق وهم يعلمون
43:86 And those unto whom they invoke instead of Him possess no power of intercession, only he who bears witness unto the Truth knowingly.
the verbe  "Sh h d شهد " is followed by the noun  "Shahd شاهد " in all three verses above  "Ch h d شهد " mean to witness and as you can see "the witness  Al-Shahd الشاهد" didn't see the event physically he is not witnessing the action with his eyes in a place.
now look at these other verses :
الزانية والزاني فاجلدوا كل واحد منهما مائة جلدة ولا تاخذكم بهما رافة في دين الله ان كنتم تؤمنون بالله واليوم الاخر وليشهد عذابهما طائفة من المؤمنين
Arberry: 24:2 The fornicatress and the fornicator -- scourge each one of them a hundred stripes, and in the matter of Allah's system let no tenderness for them seize you if you believe in allah and the Last Day; and let a party of the believers witness their chastisement.
أَذِّن فِي النَّاسِ بِالْحَجِّ يَأْتُوكَ رِجَالا وَعَلَى كُلِّ ضَامِرٍ يَأْتِينَ مِن كُلِّ فَجٍّ عَمِيقٍ
لِيَشْهَدُوا مَنَافِعَ لَهُمْ وَيَذْكُرُوا اسْمَ اللَّهِ فِي أَيَّامٍ مَّعْلُومَاتٍ عَلَى مَا رَزَقَهُم مِّن بَهِيمَةِ الأَنْعَامِ فَكُلُوا مِنْهَا وَأَطْعِمُوا الْبَائِسَ الْفَقِيرَ
Arberry: 22:27/28 and proclaim among Mankind  the Pilgrimage, and they shall come unto thee on foot and upon every lean beast, they shall come from every deep ravine. that they may witness things profitable to them and mention Allah's Name on days well-known over such beasts of the flocks as He has provided them: "So eat thereof, and feed the wretched poor."
قالوا تقاسموا بالله لنبيتنه واهله ثم لنقولن لوليه ما شهدنا مهلك اهله وانا لصادقون
Arberry: 27:49 they said, 'Swear you, one to another, by Allah, "We will attack him and his family by night, then we will tell his protector, We were not witnesses of the destruction of his family; and assuredly we are truthful men."'
in this  verses  "Sh h d شهد "  also mean to witness but by being present at the time when the action acquired ,  mean to witness by being present to see the fact or the action or the event by your eyes.
So the word  "Sh h d شهد " mean to witness wither as a testimony without seeing with your eyes or witnessing as being present and seeing / looking at fact and actions happening front of you  .
I saw the word "Sh h d شهد " in verse 2:185 as being from the second case mean witnessing the month of Ramadan by being present while  the singes / manifestations at the beginning of that month acquired :
2:185 The month of Ramadan, in which the Quran was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, THOSE OF YOU WHO WITNESS THE MONTH shall fast therein. Whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. Allah wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify Allah because He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
if these verse is saying that " THOSE OF YOU WHO WITNESS THE MONTH" it absolutely mean there are some who will not be able to witness it , if the command was to all the believers  the command in my understanding should be like this :  " O believers IF YOU WITNESS THE MONTH"  but the verse doesn't say that , its an exception by using the arabic sound/letter "منكم Minkom mean "those among you " ,
an exemple from some verses with the sound letter " من MN / Among"   :
ولقد علمتم الذين اعتدوا منكم في السبت فقلنا لهم كونوا قردة خاسئين
2:65 And certainly you have known those among you who exceeded the limits of the Sabbath, so We said to them: Be (as) apes, despised and hated.
ان الذين تولوا منكم يوم التقى الجمعان انما استزلهم الشيطان ببعض ما كسبوا ولقد عفا الله عنهم ان الله غفور حليم
3:155 Those among you who turned away the day the two hosts encountered -- Satan made them slip for somewhat they had earned; but Allah has pardoned them; Allah is All-forgiving, All-clement.
In all these verses " من MN / Among" mean among , or a part from the whole community , and its with the same meaning in the verse 2:185 , it mean the part or the ones among the believers who witnessed the month .

In English transliteration I write the "a" since short vowels are written, unlike Arabic.

In none of the occurences of "shahad" that you brought the meaning can be construed as "being present". In all of them the clear meaning is "to witness" even when one is not "present" as in the case of Youssef's witness. So your proposed meaning of "present" doesn't fit any of the passages and is therefore certainly incorrect.

This incorrect meaning as "present" then leads you to the second logical error where you have made the conditional "mn" meaningless. I agree with you that "mn" means "amongst" or "part" but since EVERYONE who is alive is present then this makes the "amongst" or "part" meaningless and illogical. On the other hand, not everyone can witness. Therefore in your very own statement you intuitively said:

"its with the same meaning in the verse 2:185 , it mean the part or the ones among the believers who witnessed the month."

As you can see, you intuitively admitted that the meaning of "present" is incorrect and that the meaning of "witness" is the correct one.

So now that the meaning of "being present" has been established as false, the question becomes, how can some part of a community 'witness" a month? Moreover, since the verb witness is in the perfect tense, then how can some part of a community witness the entire month and then
go back in time and fast for a month? Surely, the word "shahr" must denote a marker event and not a time period.

Peace,

Ayman