Justice and Mercifulness

[lordfox]

(Q, please ignore this thread)
Aren't perfect justice, and perfect mercifulness concepts that are absolutely contradictory? Why and why not?

[justamuslim]

no, they are not contradictory.   let's say you wronged me causing a lot of pain and suffering that i can never be ok.  of course, you can't get away with that and there needs to be justice.  you have to stand account taking responsibility for what you did.  but if you acknowledge that you hurt me causing so much pain, feeling remorse, apologizing from your heart for the wrongs that you had done wanting to make right of your wrongs, seeking forgiveness and redemption, then you are deserving of leniency and mercy.   

[lordfox]

no, they are not contradictory.   let's say you wronged me causing a lot of pain and suffering that i can never be ok.  of course, you can't get away with that and there needs to be justice.  you have to stand account taking responsibility for what you did.  but if you acknowledge that you hurt me causing so much pain, feeling remorse, apologizing from your heart for the wrongs that you had done wanting to make right of your wrongs, seeking forgiveness and redemption, then you are deserving of leniency and mercy.

And so in your philosophy, ''mercifulness'' can only be applied when the wrongdoer is no more and sincerely feels remorse? You are mistaking the former concept with simple ''forgiveness''.

[Student of Allah]

(Q, please ignore this thread)
Aren't perfect justice, and perfect mercifulness concepts that are absolutely contradictory? Why and why not?

Shalom Aleikhem,

Ofcourse it would contradict as long as Mercifulness = forgiveness or overlooking of faults on the basis of nothing what so ever.

Thats not what I think Mercifulness is, because there is already a word for that, its called "stupidity".

Think about this case, Person A punches you unnecessarily. You think you are being Merciful by not holding him accountable for it ? You are promoting unsocial behavior that is detrimental to the welfare of humanity. This person, without learning any lesson, would not stop before punching another human being.

Now think of another case where Person B punches you unnecessarily. For the sake of the explanation, lets assume that the person had a very bad day. Random people got into fights with him, beat him up. That happened over and over again. Till the time you arrived in the scene, he is not he anymore. He is a victim of mental/physical torture. When you mess with him, he punches.

It may not be possible for a person to prove his case in the court the way I laid it down. However, in the court of God, there isnt any lack of evidence. God knows what is in the heart of a person, God would know for certain that his behavior, although anti-social is more of a result of the abuse he had to withstand prior to the crime he committed. Mercifulness will be to consider his case and be compassionate. To be honest, compassion towards this guy would be pure JUSTICE. 

Peace
----------- Student of Allah

[Maha]

Shalom Aleikhem,

Ofcourse it would contradict as long as Mercifulness = forgiveness or overlooking of faults on the basis of nothing what so ever.

Thats not what I think Mercifulness is, because there is already a word for that, its called "stupidity".

Think about this case, Person A punches you unnecessarily. You think you are being Merciful by not holding him accountable for it ? You are promoting unsocial behavior that is detrimental to the welfare of humanity. This person, without learning any lesson, would not stop before punching another human being.

Now think of another case where Person B punches you unnecessarily. For the sake of the explanation, lets assume that the person had a very bad day. Random people got into fights with him, beat him up. That happened over and over again. Till the time you arrived in the scene, he is not he anymore. He is a victim of mental/physical torture. When you mess with him, he punches.

It may not be possible for a person to prove his case in the court the way I laid it down. However, in the court of God, there isnt any lack of evidence. God knows what is in the heart of a person, God would know for certain that his behavior, although anti-social is more of a result of the abuse he had to withstand prior to the crime he committed. Mercifulness will be to consider his case and be compassionate. To be honest, compassion towards this guy would be pure JUSTICE. 

Peace
----------- Student of Allah

just my words.

[Ruuube]

I don't see how they contradict each other.

Mercy, God forgives you and overlooks your failures as long as you are of the repentant. Justice, God punishes you when you show no remorse or have no good reason.  If you have committed a massive crime, but you are repentant, you are showing remorse, and earn his mercy. Commit the same crime, show no remorse, then you have learned nothing and don't desire to progress as a person, then you are judged with justice.

[Someone]

Peace,

The god the creator provides every day for everybody on this world some air to breath, food to eat, water to drink, sun to warm up, to everybody on this earth... He is providing even the worst criminals, atheists, agnostics, sectists... He is surely the most merciful.

As for perfect justice, one can try to objectivly analyse his actions and their consequences to verify this.

[lordfox]

I think you are not analyzing my question carefully.

I have found in the translations of the Quran that Allah describes itself as being both the "most merciful" and the "most just", one should not disregard the first part of the description. The question was if the "most" is absolute, regardless of the former actions or not. If one says, absolute mercifulness goes, according to absolute justice, then it renders it to "forgiveness" which is not akin to "mercifulness" and so StudentofAllah's paragraph is self-defeating.

[IAMOP]

It fits like lego really.

If God is just to those who are just, then that is perfect justice and mercy: the unjust are corrected. Totality = justice.

If God treats the good exactly as the bad, then He is being unjust to the good. Totality = injustice.

Another way to look at it: if you jump off a tall building onto rocks, God can either bend his law to you OR let nature take its course. The prior is not just because it's not consistent in itself. The way of God does not change. It's a river that always flows downstream to enrich the Earth (mercy/grace) and always forwards in time (justice). If someone tries to flow upstream then they themselves are being unjust and unmerciful. If they swam with the river then this would not even matter!

Maybe you've heard of the Tao Te Ching?

Yet still, all beings other than God will always be less just and less merciful than God. Creation is limited and has desires whereas God is free of limits and free of desires. God is the truth itself, the only correct reality. Being unquestionable, God is always correct. Mathematically speaking it's like Godel's incompleteness theorem. If you find out why 2+2=4 then you cannot find out why the proof to why 2+2=4 is correct. Trace this recursion to the end and there is always the unquestionable - also known as God. So the answer to your question is: because.

It's a matter of the identity of God. The error in reasoning comes from treating God and truth or reality as distinct things. "Is God true?" or "Does God exist?". Questioning veiled tautologies, you see. All of these terms are synonyms.

[Student of Allah]

I think you are not analyzing my question carefully.

I have found in the translations of the Quran that Allah describes itself as being both the "most merciful" and the "most just", one should not disregard the first part of the description. The question was if the "most" is absolute, regardless of the former actions or not. If one says, absolute mercifulness goes, according to absolute justice, then it renders it to "forgiveness" which is not akin to "mercifulness" and so StudentofAllah's paragraph is self-defeating.

Shalom Aleikhem,

Well, you are 100% correct as long as the definition of Mercifulness is " Having the tendency to forgive on the basis of nothing what so ever".

If you define mercy as something which is shown on the basis of something... then there is no problem whatsoever. Just like in our human courts, sometimes a person may receive less penalty on the basis of other factors taken into consideration.

Again, showing mercy to those who deserve it is the best justice one can do.

Peace
--------------- Student of Allah

[lordfox]

@SOA

That is what I wanted to read. The problem is that we cannot change the definition of a word simply because of our current philosophical affiliation. As Allah being the ''most'' merciful is philosophically unsustainable, we must agree that the word within the Qu'ran has been mistranslated, which is a common and possible thing, due to the translators being Christianized.

[Student of Allah]

@SOA

That is what I wanted to read. The problem is that we cannot change the definition of a word simply because of our current philosophical affiliation. As Allah being the ''most'' merciful is philosophically unsustainable, we must agree that the word within the Qu'ran has been mistranslated, which is a common and possible thing, due to the translators being Christianized.

Shalom Aleikhem,

Well.... if you ask me, the problem is deeper than mis-translations. When Qur'an casts an example, lets say about Moses... we immediately picture the Christianized popular image and start reading it as if the author ever asked us to add those extra details to the story.

It doesnt matter who the stories are about, we do our best to make them fit to our preconceived ideas about them.

Peace
------------ Student of Allah

[Ruuube]

@SOA

That is what I wanted to read. The problem is that we cannot change the definition of a word simply because of our current philosophical affiliation. As Allah being the ''most'' merciful is philosophically unsustainable, we must agree that the word within the Qu'ran has been mistranslated, which is a common and possible thing, due to the translators being Christianized.

I have to ask, why is it that Allah cannot be the 'most merciful'?

[Lena]

Can there be mercy without repentance? Can we be merciful towards others because we understand what has caused their actions even though they are incapable of repenting and fully understanding the damage they have done because they themselves are damaged individuals - for example pysychopathic behaviour and other behaviours resulting from pre frontal cortex brain damage eg. embryo receiving a lack of nutrients in the womb, birth injury, effects of chemical pollution, hormonal  causes, abuse suffered as a young child etc

Is repentance a necessary precondition for God's mercy? Is God forgiving and merciful to whomever he wills without them repenting?

[Mr.Q]

As Allah being the ''most'' merciful is philosophically unsustainable, we must agree that the word within the Qu'ran has been mistranslated, which is a common and possible thing, due to the translators being Christianized.

Why exactly is God describing Himself as Most Merciful "philosophically unsustainable"?

Are you arguing against God being merciful or being the most merciful? If you claim that God cannot be the "most" or "best" of anything, then are you not implying that others can be "more" Merciful than God? "More" Just than God? Are you not implying that others can have attributes that are "greater" or "better" than God's?

Why must we agree on a false premise or a simple declarative argument without evidence?

He said: "My Lord, forgive me and my brother, and admit us in your mercy; you are the most Merciful of the merciful." (7:151)
He said: "Shall I trust him with you as I trusted you with Joseph before that? God is the best guardian, and He is the Most Merciful of those who show mercy." (12:64)
He said: "There is no blame on you this day, may God forgive you, and He is the most Merciful of those who show mercy." (12:92)

How should these verses be translated then according to you?

[lordfox]

?@Mr.Q

Why why, your vision is letting you down, you must be really getting old, as advising you to stay away from my thread was the first sentence. Leave philosophy aside, it is clearly not your thing. I would also like it if you addressed me as 'sir' next time. 

Can there be mercy without repentance? Can we be merciful towards others because we understand what has caused their actions even though they are incapable of repenting and fully understanding the damage they have done because they themselves are damaged individuals - for example pysychopathic behaviour and other behaviours resulting from pre frontal cortex brain damage eg. embryo receiving a lack of nutrients in the womb, birth injury, effects of chemical pollution, hormonal  causes, abuse suffered as a young child etc

Is repentance a necessary precondition for God's mercy? Is God forgiving and merciful to whomever he wills without them repenting?

Thank you for the thoughtful post.

Mercy means the forgiveness of a crime, as I said earlier, we have to take in account the fact that Allah, in the traditional translations, seems to describe itself as being, not only merciful, but the most merciful. To be most merciful is absolute, regardless of it being just or not. Allah describes itself as being the most just as well, but there is no philosophical problem with that, and so it prevails over the idea of it being the most merciful. This philosophical correlation can no more be, only if we agree that the Arabic word rendered as 'most merciful' is a bad translation.

Furthermore, the words translated as 'most merciful' are رَحِيمًا, الرَّحِيمِ, and  الرَّحِيمُ, I do not quite understand what made them be translated into the 'most merciful' instead of 'merciful'.

[Student of Allah]

Shalom aleikhem to all,

I guess you guys are misunderstanding what Lordfox is trying to say. He is not saying that God can or can not be most merciful. He is just pointing out that the traditional understanding of God's Mercy that we have is not necessarily correct.

Atleast thats what I understood of him.

@Lena

7:42 As for those who believe and do good; We do not burden a soul except with what it can bear; those are the dwellers of the Paradise, in it they will abide

23:62 And We do not burden a soul except with what it can bear. And We have a record that speaks with the truth, they will not be wronged

65:7 The rich shall provide support in accordance with his means, and the poor shall provide according to the means that God bestowed upon him. God does not burden any soul more than He has given it. God will provide ease after difficulty.

2:286 God does not burden a soul except with what it can bear. For it is what it earns, and against it is what it earns. "Our Lord, do not mind us if we forget or make mistakes; our Lord, do not place a burden upon us as You have placed upon those before us; our Lord, do not place upon us what we cannot bear; pardon us, and forgive us, and have mercy on us; You are our patron, so grant us victory over the disbelieving people."


2:233 And the divorced mothers are allowed to suckle their children two full years, if they wish to complete the suckling. And the man for whom the child is born is responsible for both their provisions and clothing equitably. A soul is not burdened except with what it can bear. No mother shall be harmed because of her child, nor shall a father be harmed because of his child. And for the guardian is the same requirement. So if they wish to separate out of mutual agreement and counsel, then there is no sin upon them. And if you want to hire nursing mothers, then there is no sin upon you if you return what you have been given equitably. And be aware of God, and know that God is watching over what you do.

How much more mercy should God show for us to stop taking partners/authorities beside Him ? You are not to be tested based on my knowledge, neither am I to be tested based on your knowledge. And God most certainly does not mail scholars with a degree signed by Him to show us that that specific scholar is right in his interpretation. I am glad to know from God that I will not be burdened except with what I can bear. God will not give me a fail grade because I was mentally unable to comprehend a topic.

48:17 There is no burden on the blind, nor is there any burden on the cripple, nor is there any burden on the sick. And whoever obeys God and His messenger, He will admit them into gardens with rivers flowing beneath them; and whoever turns away, He will punish him with a painful retribution.

The above ayaat is beautiful. It supports the other ayaats I quoted from a different angle. Your disability is known by God, so he will not burden you with things you can not possibly do yourself. So, when a super smart guy reads and knows more from it, and a mentally challenged guy reads but knows little, God is so merciful that he will give pass grade to both. Because at the end of the day, both of them submitted to God with the best of their abilities.

Peace
------------- Student of Allah

[nimnimak_11]

(Q, please ignore this thread)
Aren't perfect justice, and perfect mercifulness concepts that are absolutely contradictory? Why and why not?

The phrase "perfect justice" is absurd IMO

That which is perfect will exercise benevolence in the best way and it will be the most benevolent. It being the perfect, will encompass all of knowledge possible along with the most complete and highest degree of wisdom. With these attributes it will best determine when to show mercy, or a just retribution since to show mercy is not really a matter of justice IMO; its the ignoring of justice for something that could be better when the circumstances allow.

Benevolence as i understand it, is the effective sustaining of other things and supplying providence to them in the best manner possible. God being the Perfect, must necessarily be self-sufficient and also benevolent. Since all else is not almighty, only God can potentially be the most benevolent. Since all else depends on the God, and God is the provider sustainer and caretaker of all things, without getting anything back, God is the most benevolent. 

[nimnimak_11]

I think you are not analyzing my question carefully.

I have found in the translations of the Quran that Allah describes itself as being both the "most merciful" and the "most just", one should not disregard the first part of the description. The question was if the "most" is absolute, regardless of the former actions or not. If one says, absolute mercifulness goes, according to absolute justice, then it renders it to "forgiveness" which is not akin to "mercifulness" and so StudentofAllah's paragraph is self-defeating.

There is a strong distinction between the most merciful and the absolute merciful. The two terms are not alike and if the God wanted, it would have used a different term as opposed to "more".

I'm not sure that God is the most merciful or just. I think God is the most benevolent. This makes a difference.