Islam, the veil and slavery

[Confused]

I was talking to a friend of mine about the veil in Islam. My friend is an atheist, but with a Muslim background and he is quite well informed.

Anyway, I was telling him that I don't believe that the veil is a fard in Islam because it is not really mentioned in the Koran. He responded by saying that the verse in the Koran pertaining to the veil has a story behind it.

The verse is:
?O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.? (Quran 33:59)


My friend said that the verse was referring to the fact that at the time, there were free Muslim women and slave Muslim women. While it was completely banned to harass or bother a free woman in anyway, it was ok to harass a non-veiled woman because they thought of her as sub-human with no feelings. So, Mohamed came up with a verse asking the free women to "draw their cloaks around them," so that the men can know if they are free or not and whether is it acceptable to harass them or not. That's why the verse continues to the second part which is "that will be better, so they may be recognized and not annoyed," by recognized meaning that people will be able to identify them as free women and not bother them.

Now, the story does make sense, especially if you compare it to the verse. However, what really disturbed me was the whole idea that it was ok to harass female slaves because they were considered sub-human. Islam never banned slavery but only "recommended," that people free their slaves. This for me is beyond comprehension. Now, however I am even more shocked that slave women were considered sub human and Muslim men were given the green light to do whatever they want with them. What kind of religion allows this sort of behavior?

[Zulf]

The answer to your question is: Not the system of conduct you find in the quran at least!

I would like you to realize that there is the traditional islam made up by humans, and it is full of crap (but not more crap than other religions)... and then you have the system of conduct outlined in the quran, which is light years apart from the aforementioned traditional one. Please do ponder this! Be sure to know what islam you are looking for.

For my/other readers' information sake:
Which one are you interested in?
What do you hope to find out?

peace

[Confused]

Zulf, could you please stop with this philosophical stuff and answer my question?  What does the second part of the verse mean? What story does it refer to?

[huruf]

I was talking to a friend of mine about the veil in Islam. My friend is an atheist, but with a Muslim background and he is quite well informed.

Anyway, I was telling him that I don't believe that the veil is a fard in Islam because it is not really mentioned in the Koran. He responded by saying that the verse in the Koran pertaining to the veil has a story behind it.

The verse is:
?O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.? (Quran 33:59)


My friend said that the verse was referring to the fact that at the time, there were free Muslim women and slave Muslim women. While it was completely banned to harass or bother a free woman in anyway, it was ok to harass a non-veiled woman because they thought of her as sub-human with no feelings. So, Mohamed came up with a verse asking the free women to "draw their cloaks around them," so that the men can know if they are free or not and whether is it acceptable to harass them or not. That's why the verse continues to the second part which is "that will be better, so they may be recognized and not annoyed," by recognized meaning that people will be able to identify them as free women and not bother them.

Now, the story does make sense, especially if you compare it to the verse. However, what really disturbed me was the whole idea that it was ok to harass female slaves because they were considered sub-human. Islam never banned slavery but only "recommended," that people free their slaves. This for me is beyond comprehension. Now, however I am even more shocked that slave women were considered sub human and Muslim men were given the green light to do whatever they want with them. What kind of religion allows this sort of behavior?

So what? That friend tells that, and some other persone may tell you something else.

You are a woman, you live in an environment where some feel good considering that if a womn is molested it is because somehow she invited it. Many of us know that kind of human mentality, it is felt as a great advantage by those who have it. Thereby they have all the freedom and none of the guilt. The guilt is always for the molested.

Now look at the Qur'an and read what it says, from several ayas before and continue with those after. Read it by yourself, get into what it says, into the conditions and situation it evoques. Where are slaves mentioned? where are free women mentioned? Nowhere. However, there is talk about those who annoy Allah and the Messenger, and what Allah does with them, and those who harass believing men and women (you see, it is not about women slaves or not, men are harassed too). And then tells the Prophet to tell the believing women (no talk of slaves or free) to throw garments over themselves so that they are recognized and not molested (give no excuse to the molesters of saying that those women are molestable)


and then goes on to say:

"Truly if the Hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a desease... do not desist..."



Desist from what? From harassing and molesting  believing men and believing women


So we know, who those were who molested and harassed believing men and women: the hypocrites, the diseased of the heart, the seditious... And God says also what He will do with them: Throw them out of the city

Really what is so obscure about the whole thing? What has made that from a set of ayas which deal with the hard time the believers had to go through because of bad people and what Allah has in store for the torturers it has become instead a means of repression of women by means of clothing? What is wrong with muslims to come to that, to acknowledge that their societies are ones of hypocrites, heart diseased and seditious people? So God advises so that women are known and not molested by hypocrites, and muslims of today are quite ready to acknowledge themselves as hypocrites, heart diseased and seditious, since they exact from their women to observe the same need of protection as they had to assume when they were under siege?

Confused, sister, there are many things in the Qur'an which need of deep spiritual goodness and knowledge to get their benefit, but there other things, that at mere first sight and at the most aparent level are plain, like these ayas, I think. What has seized us that we are not able to see the most elementary in them and look for some sinuous explanation? Wouldn't in a real community of believers a molester of women be readily put in his place and would the harassing of women be accept as a normal occurrence?

When we can say that in not a "non believing communities" (as it happens in many of them) women, without imposing anything on them, can circulate without being harassed, doesn't this veiling business attributed to  33.59 aya picture a dismal portrait of such a society?

Where is the need to look for slaves or free or whatever? We all know that realations of power make it easier to harass a common woman than to harass a woman of the powerful folks, unless the harasser is another powerful folk. Where is the need of slaves or free to explain that?

Do we have to run for every single thing to some expert which may explain through contorted means something which at first sight already is glaring?

Excuse my tone. I know that I have a tendency to hand sermos as if I were a  catholic priest.  Something always rubs down. Sorry for that.

Salaam

[Zulf]

Dear Confused,

Huruf just explained in a great way about what you asked, better than what I could put words on right now.
I hope you feel good about that explanation because it makes lots of sense. Do you want to see the sense in the quran or do you want material for rejecting some religion called islam? Honestly?

What is your aim of these questions anyway?
What do you hope to find out?

When you want to find the real situation, it's better to ask HOWs and WHYs, rather than WHATs. But again it depends on the intention.

Peace

ps. and by the way, if you honestly and sincerely want to find out the REAL story of things in islam... there is PLENTY of material and research done on this forum.
But maybe you are just writing an article or something which needs some attention-grabbing value??
Well, the stuff on this website is more explosive than just the same old hate-stories that people already "know about". If you were interested in goodness, you would find out through this forum, by doing your own search and research, that what the quran says is actually what anyone sensible already understands without reading anything. You would also find out how sunni (etc) islam of today has practically NOTHING to do with the quran. Interested?

[Confused]

No Zulf, I am not writing an article for "attention grabbing value."!!! I live in Egypt, we are not short of attention grabbing stuff ie. some guy crucified himself today in Tahrir Square. ANYWAY, it was simply a question. I am looking for answers and I have a right to ask whatever I want.

[Kaiokenred]

Ya ayyuha annabiyyuqul li-azwajika wabanatika wanisa-ialmu/mineena yudneena AAalayhinna min jalabeebihinna thalikaadna an yuAArafna fala yu/thayna wakanaAllahu ghafooran raheema

Hijab not seen.

Anyway it simply means to cover themselves. Don't make it such a big deal.

[Zulf]

Yes of course, you are right. It is good to ask questions, as long as they are sincere. I don't know you and should not assume anything about you. I have however come across plenty of people who were very interested in "knowing" about all the stupid and "juicy" things in "islam", only to slander and spread hatred. They were never interested in the good things or how the bad things are unfounded myths. Of course I'm not accusing you of this, since I don't know you.

Also acknowledge that you have received, from the different posters here, better, wiser and more knowledgeable answers than one would often come across from any mainstream muslim.

So, your questions should be considered answered.
And like I said, if you are ready to see it, there is plenty of material on this forum showing how the quran has virtually nothing to do with traditional/mainstream islam and all that is attributed to it.

In the end we find what we want to find.

Peace

[Confused]

Yes of course, you are right. It is good to ask questions, as long as they are sincere. I don't know you and should not assume anything about you. I have however come across plenty of people who were very interested in "knowing" about all the stupid and "juicy" things in "islam", only to slander and spread hatred. They were never interested in the good things or how the bad things are unfounded myths. Of course I'm not accusing you of this, since I don't know you.

Also acknowledge that you have received, from the different posters here, better, wiser and more knowledgeable answers than one would often come across from any mainstream muslim.

So, your questions should be considered answered.
And like I said, if you are ready to see it, there is plenty of material on this forum showing how the quran has virtually nothing to do with traditional/mainstream islam and all that is attributed to it.

In the end we find what we want to find.

Peace

If I was looking for some "juicy" bits about Islam, why would I come here and ask a question about it? Wouldn't I have just taken that piece of info and just ran with it without bothering to verify it? I only come to ask because I am trying to find answers to the things that disturb me in this faith. Where else would I go?

[Bigmo]

I was talking to a friend of mine about the veil in Islam. My friend is an atheist, but with a Muslim background and he is quite well informed.

Anyway, I was telling him that I don't believe that the veil is a fard in Islam because it is not really mentioned in the Koran. He responded by saying that the verse in the Koran pertaining to the veil has a story behind it.

The verse is:
?O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.? (Quran 33:59)


My friend said that the verse was referring to the fact that at the time, there were free Muslim women and slave Muslim women. While it was completely banned to harass or bother a free woman in anyway, it was ok to harass a non-veiled woman because they thought of her as sub-human with no feelings. So, Mohamed came up with a verse asking the free women to "draw their cloaks around them," so that the men can know if they are free or not and whether is it acceptable to harass them or not. That's why the verse continues to the second part which is "that will be better, so they may be recognized and not annoyed," by recognized meaning that people will be able to identify them as free women and not bother them.

Now, the story does make sense, especially if you compare it to the verse. However, what really disturbed me was the whole idea that it was ok to harass female slaves because they were considered sub-human. Islam never banned slavery but only "recommended," that people free their slaves. This for me is beyond comprehension. Now, however I am even more shocked that slave women were considered sub human and Muslim men were given the green light to do whatever they want with them. What kind of religion allows this sort of behavior?

I think this is a continuation of this subject matter:

24.11. Those who brought forward the lie are a body among yourselves: think it not to be an evil to you; On the contrary it is good for you: to every man among them (will come the punishment) of the sin that he earned, and to him who took on himself the lead among them, will be a penalty grievous.

12. Why did not the believers - men and women - when ye heard of the affair,- put the best construction on it in their own minds and say, "This (charge) is an obvious lie" ?

13. Why did they not bring four witnesses to prove it? When they have not brought the witnesses, such men, in the sight of Allah, (stand forth) themselves as liars!

14. Were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah on you, in this world and the Hereafter, a grievous penalty would have seized you in that ye rushed glibly into this affair.

15. Behold, ye received it on your tongues, and said out of your mouths things of which ye had no knowledge; and ye thought it to be a light matter, while it was most serious in the sight of Allah.

16. And why did ye not, when ye heard it, say? - "It is not right of us to speak of this: Glory to Allah. this is a most serious slander!"

17. Allah doth admonish you, that ye may never repeat such (conduct), if ye are (true) Believers.

18. And Allah makes the Signs plain to you: for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.

19. Those who love (to see) scandal published broadcast among the Believers, will have a grievous Penalty in this life and in the Hereafter: Allah knows, and ye know not.

20. Were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah on you, and that Allah is full of kindness and mercy, (ye would be ruined indeed).

21. O ye who believe! follow not Satan's footsteps: if any will follow the footsteps of Satan, he will (but) command what is shameful and wrong: and were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah on you, not one of you would ever have been pure: but Allah doth purify whom He pleases: and Allah is One Who hears and knows (all things).

22. Let not those among you who are endued with grace and amplitude of means resolve by oath against helping their kinsmen, those in want, and those who have left their homes in Allah.s cause: let them forgive and overlook, do you not wish that Allah should forgive you? For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

23. Those who slander chaste women, indiscreet but believing, are cursed in this life and in the Hereafter: for them is a grievous Penalty,-

24. On the Day when their tongues, their hands, and their feet will bear witness against them as to their actions.

25. On that Day Allah will pay them back (all) their just dues, and they will realise that Allah is the (very) Truth, that makes all things manifest.

26. Women impure are for men impure, and men impure for women impure and women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity: these are not affected by what people say: for them there is forgiveness, and a provision honourable.