41:11 "Come willingly or unwillingly." They said "We come willingly"

[nimnimak_11]

Peace all

I had a question on 41:11 Then He settled to the heaven, while it was still smoke, and He said to it, and to the earth: Come willingly or unwillingly. They said: We come willingly

How can they respond with we come willingly if there are without freewill? Or are they with freewill?

Any ideas?

[Mazhar]

It was command for one time execution. They were to obey. No free will is involved. Only choice is given to comply in either way.


Thereafter, having created the Earth and its wherewithal, He attended/directed towards the Sky, which was existing gaseous. Thereby, it was ordained for the Sky and for the Earth [solid mass/matter], "you [both] develop relationship either of attraction [willingly which attracts] or repulsion".  They said, "We have assembled like those who develop relationship of affection/attraction desiring proximity". [41:11]

The verb is perfect, they have carried out the command. They are reporting compliance. Free will means when one can deny the command.

[interesting: these are first two feminines who developed relationship of attraction for each other]

[nimnimak_11]

It was command for one time execution. They were to obey. No free will is involved. Only choice is given to comply in either way.


Thereafter, having created the Earth and its wherewithal, He attended/directed towards the Sky, which was existing gaseous. Thereby, it was ordained for the Sky and for the Earth [solid mass/matter], "you [both] develop relationship either of attraction [willingly which attracts] or repulsion".  They said, "We have assembled like those who develop relationship of affection/attraction desiring proximity". [41:11]

The verb is perfect, they have carried out the command. They are reporting compliance. Free will means when one can deny the command.

[interesting: these are first two feminines who developed relationship of attraction for each other]

Thanks for the help

I think I understand what your saying but consider this. They are told to come/develop relationship. They are then given two possible ways in doing this: 1) willingly/with attraction or 2) unwillingly/ with repulsion. Since it has not been determined for them in which of these two manners they will come/develop relationships, this implies that they and not the God determine this. If they and not the God determine this, then this implies that they are choosing.

Should we instead say that whilst the God is not determining the repulsion or attraction, that the heaven and earth are not actually choosing rather it is just a matter of probability.

Similar to the flip of a coin. The analogy would be like this. A coin is flipped, the command is land. The options are heads or tails.

Does this mean that the God did not determine how this is done (either with attraction or with repulsion) in 41:11? Or is it the case that the God did determine that they would be attracted to one another?

[Mazhar]

Thanks for the help

I think I understand what your saying but consider this. They are told to come/develop relationship. They are then given two possible ways in doing this: 1) willingly/with attraction or 2) unwillingly/ with repulsion. Since it has not been determined for them in which of these two manners they will come/develop relationships, this implies that they and not the God determine this. If they and not the God determine this, then this implies that they are choosing.

Should we instead say that whilst the God is not determining the repulsion or attraction, that the heaven and earth are not actually choosing rather it is just a matter of probability.

Similar to the flip of a coin. The analogy would be like this. A coin is flipped, the command is land. The options are heads or tails.

Does this mean that the God did not determine how this is done (either with attraction or with repulsion) in 41:11? Or is it the case that the God did determine that they would be attracted to one another?

Command is develop association this way or the other way specifically defined.

They complied and chose attraction.

Causality---physical sciences ------existing one comes in operation.

Had they chose other style

Causality-----physical sciences would have been different.

Allah the Exalted demonstrated He is above causality. His Will is the Prime Cause.

[GODsubmitter]

Interesting lecture on creation of the earth and sky form The Torah:



http://vimeo.com/15110780

[nimnimak_11]

Command is develop association this way or the other way specifically defined.

They complied and chose attraction.

Causality---physical sciences ------existing one comes in operation.

Had they chose other style

Causality-----physical sciences would have been different.

Allah the Exalted demonstrated He is above causality. His Will is the Prime Cause.

Im not sure I understand you Mazhar.
They are forced to come, but whether they come wth attraction or repulsion is not decided by the God. If not decided by the God then either its a case of pure chance or a decision is made by some other entity. How can this be different?

[Mazhar]

Im not sure I understand you Mazhar.
They are forced to come, but whether they come wth attraction or repulsion is not decided by the God. If not decided by the God then either its a case of pure chance or a decision is made by some other entity. How can this be different?

There is no philsophical puzzle in it. Decision is something independent and reflects one's own desire. Here it is not decision. Here decision is of Allah. He the Exalted has given choice between A or B. Nothing else. It would be their decision if they could do something other than A or B.

[nimnimak_11]

There is no philsophical puzzle in it. Decision is something independent and reflects one's own desire. Here it is not decision. Here decision is of Allah. He the Exalted has given choice between A or B. Nothing else. It would be their decision if they could do something other than A or B.

The will of the God is such that they choose between A or B but it is not God's will which of the two they will choose . What i was trying to understand was that when they say we come willingly, is that metaphorical for something like chance or is it literal in the sense that they had a very limited freewill to the extent that they could choose between only two things: A or B.

[GODsubmitter]

I think the emphasis is on the Will of God as the ONLY thing there is; and nothing else ever has a free choice or free will.
The accent is on the submission=Islam, a doctrinal or theological point, to metaphorically show that even the earth and the sky submitted willingly or unwillingly, and as we too should do...

[nimnimak_11]

I think the emphasis is on the Will of God as the ONLY thing there is; and nothing else ever has a free choice or free will.
The accent is on the submission=Islam, a doctrinal or theological point, to metaphorically show that even the earth and the sky submitted willingly or unwillingly, and as we too should do...

I believe that the God is almightly but i don't believe that we are without freewill. We have a will. Whether God allows us to carry out what we will is something that we don't decide. We just hope.