Which are the four Sacred Months according to Quran ???

[mmkhan]

10:5  He is the One who has made the sun a radiance, and the moon a light, and He has measured its phases; that you may know the number of the years and the count. God has not created this except with the truth. He clarifies the revelations for a people who know.

Salaam tlihawa,

You missed it bro "its phases" referring to only moon not both. I pointed out just to help you understand better, inshaAllah.


May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path 
mmKhan

[tlihawa]

Salaam tlihawa,

You missed it bro "its phases" referring to only moon not both. I pointed out just to help you understand better, inshaAllah.


May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path 
mmKhan

Salam mmkhan,
Sure, 'its phases' referring to only moon. The verse talked about counting the years and it mentioned both sun and moon. So I think both of them is used as parameter, in other words, it refers to luni-solar year.

But thanks anyway to remind me.

peace..

[mmkhan]

Salam mmkhan,
Sure, 'its phases' referring to only moon. The verse talked about counting the years and it mentioned both sun and moon. So I think both of them is used as parameter, in other words, it refers to luni-solar year.

But thanks anyway to remind me.

peace..

Salaam brother tlihawa,

Yes, I agree with you . Just now I checked the aayat's text and found you correct that it is referring to luni-solar years.

10:5 ہُوَ الَّذِیۡ جَعَلَ الشَّمۡسَ ضِیَآءً وَّ الۡقَمَرَ نُوۡرًا وَّ قَدَّرَہٗ مَنَازِلَ لِتَعۡلَمُوۡا عَدَدَ السِّنِیۡنَ وَ الۡحِسَابَ ؕ مَا خَلَقَ اللّٰہُ ذٰلِکَ اِلَّا بِالۡحَقِّ ۚ یُفَصِّلُ الۡاٰیٰتِ لِقَوۡمٍ یَّعۡلَمُوۡنَ

The tashdeed on two waw explained that they are interlinked.


May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path 
mmKhan

[tlihawa]

Salamun alaykum,
one thing crossing in my mind, that 4 sacred month no longer exist after the year when the Believers had made covenant with the Rejecters. Some of the rules in Al Quran has been made based on the situation in Rasulullah Muhammad time. And this rule could not be applied anymore along with the death of Rasulullah.

For example this rule:

4:59    O you who believe, obey God and obey the messenger and those in authority <ulil amri> among you. But if you dispute in any matter, then you shall refer it to God and His messenger if you believe in God and the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for knowing.

Since the messenger no longer with us, we could ask, who the authority among us? and what the things fall to dispute?

The answer is in 4:83:

4:83   And if any matter regarding security, or fear, (during the war) comes to them they make it publicly known, but if they had referred it to the messenger and to authority <ulil amri> among them then it would have been known by those who studied it from them. And had it not been for the grace of God upon you and His mercy, you would have followed the devil, except for a few.

So the matter was about security and fear during the war in Muhammad time. And the authority among them were those who studied the matter (also known as intelligence).

How do we fall into dispute about the thing which had been done centuries ago, and the people whose had the authority to investigate it had died?

So this verse, 4:59, contain the rule which only applicable at the Muhammad time, and no longer applicable in our time nowadays.

Now, what about the 4 sacred months?

As you can see that the four sacred months has been declared based on the Allah and Rasul revocation in this verse:

9:1   A revocation is made by God and His messenger to those with whom you have made a covenant from among the polytheists.
9:2   "Therefore, roam the land for four months and know that you will not escape God, and that God will humiliate the rejecters."

The four sacred months here means to make a truce with the Rejecters, and its duration is 4 months. That's why the months are called "ashurul hurumu" or the months to refrain from a thing, and the thing here is war.

Ha-Ra-Miim =  refrain from a thing

Also you could consider these following verses:

9:7   How can the polytheists have a covenant with God and with His messenger? Except for those with whom you made a covenant near the Masjidil Harami, as long as they are upright with you, then you are upright with them. God loves the righteous.

The covenant made near the Masjidil Haram.

9:28   O you who believe, the polytheists are impure, so let them not approach the Masjidil Haram after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

So the place that Believers made covenant with the Rejecters is near the Masjidil Haram, and 9:28 confirming that there's no other way for the Rejecters to approach the Masjidil Haram after theirs year (the year when the covenant had made). It means that there is no more covenant will be made after that. And it means the Sacred months to make a truce no longer needed.

So I think, the sacred months, must be treated the same way just like a rule in 4:59 which is no longer applicable nowadays.

But even so, I believe that there is a moral behind the stories to strengthen our heart, but not to argue what month does the sacred months, cause it really depend on when the covenant being made.

And regarding 9:36, I encourage you to read and put this verse into the context of Surah at-taubah.

Surah at-Taubah is unique, it's a kind of live report during the war. To inform Rasulullah about the war, and its preparation, the strategy, the covenant, and to inform the betrayer among the believers, confirming God's help, inform the weakness of Believers, intelligence, etc.

Yes, this war is so important.

Any thoughts?

peace

[Bender]

Salam A2Z,
I get confused same as you, until I realize something in 74:30-31 could explain about the exact math. You should focus at the word used on those verses.

74:29   A signal <lawwāḥatun> to human beings.
74:30   Upon it is nineteen.

74:31   And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be angels; and We did not make their prescribed number (of time period) <ʿiddatahum> except as a test for those who have rejected, so that those who were given the Book would understand, and those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that those who have been given the Book and the believers do not have doubt, and so that those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would say: "What did God mean with an example such as this?" It is such that God misguides whom He wishes, and He guides whom He wishes. And none know the soldiers of your Lord except He; and it is but a reminder for human beings.

Here, you should treat the word 'iddatahum' as cycle of time period. Please check the same word used in 2:184, 2:185, 33:49, 65:1, and 65:4 to understand the context.

And the time period here is 19. The cycle of nineteen.

Please note that the believers and people of the book knew about it, and it is the sign to all human beings (74:29). I would like to show you how this 19 cycle works regarding timing period. This calculation is taken from people of the book's calendar.


The Jewish calendar is based on three astronomical phenomena: the rotation of the Earth about its axis (a day); the revolution of the moon about the Earth (a month); and the revolution of the Earth about the sun (a year). These three phenomena are independent of each other, so there is no direct correlation between them. On average, the moon revolves around the Earth in about 29? days. The Earth revolves around the sun in about 365? days, that is, about 12.4 lunar months.

This calendar matches with the Al Quran requirements regarding year count:

• 
  Revolution the earth about the sun and revolution the moon about the earth.

10:5  He is the One who has made the sun a radiance, and the moon a light, and He has measured its phases; that you may know the number of the years and the count. God has not created this except with the truth. He clarifies the revelations for a people who know.

• 
  And the rotation of the Earth about its axis (a day) as well:

17:12And We made the night and the day as two signs, so We erased the sign of night and We made the sign of day to see-in, that you may seek bounty from your Lord, and that you may know the number of the years and the count. And everything We have detailed completely.

By knowing this, I have no doubt that 12-13 month issue is just a test for us. The Luni Solar year will be synchronized automatically every 19 years, and it well documented in the book. Verse 9:36 is just to confirm that the year is based on 12-month cycle, but we need to consider the 74:31 to get the big picture.

And what about intercalary month in 9:37?

It seems that the Rejecter didn't count the 13th month (if any) as part of the restricted months.

peace..

Salaam again tlihawa,

It looks like I am blind cos I can't see any relationship between 74:29-31 and a luni-solar system and what 19 has to do with it. As per my understanding it has nothing to do with any time-system, but Allah knows best.

Please also note the red part:
74:31 And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be angels; and We did not make their number except as a test for those who have rejected, so that those who were given the Book would understand, and those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that those who have been given the Book and the believers do not have doubt, and so that those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would say: "What did God mean with an example such as this?" It is such that God misguides whom He wishes, and He guides whom He wishes. And none know the soldiers of your Lord except He; and it is but a reminder for human beings.

Maybe it's just better to say this: "We believe in it, all is from our Lord."

Salaam,
Bender

[tlihawa]

Salaam again tlihawa,

It looks like I am blind cos I can't see any relationship between 74:29-31 and a luni-solar system and what 19 has to do with it. As per my understanding it has nothing to do with any time-system, but Allah knows best.

the keyword here is ʿiddatahum in 74:31. Here is the dictionary taken from Corpus for the similar words. Sometimes it talks about number and mostly talked about time frame:
Noun
(2:184:10) faʿiddatun   then a prescribed number   فَمَنْ كَانَ مِنْكُمْ مَرِيضًا أَوْ عَلَىٰ سَفَرٍ فَعِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَيَّامٍ أُخَرَ
(2:185:24) faʿiddatun   then prescribed number (should be made up)   وَمَنْ كَانَ مَرِيضًا أَوْ عَلَىٰ سَفَرٍ فَعِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَيَّامٍ أُخَرَ
(2:185:37) l-ʿidata   the prescribed period   يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ بِكُمُ الْيُسْرَ وَلَا يُرِيدُ بِكُمُ الْعُسْرَ وَلِتُكْمِلُوا الْعِدَّةَ
(9:36:2) ʿiddata   (the) number   إِنَّ عِدَّةَ الشُّهُورِ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ اثْنَا عَشَرَ شَهْرًا فِي كِتَابِ اللَّهِ
(9:37:15) ʿiddata   the number   يُحِلُّونَهُ عَامًا وَيُحَرِّمُونَهُ عَامًا لِيُوَاطِئُوا عِدَّةَ مَا حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ
(18:22:18) biʿiddatihim   their number   قُلْ رَبِّي أَعْلَمُ بِعِدَّتِهِمْ مَا يَعْلَمُهُمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلٌ
(33:49:17) ʿiddatin   waiting period   فَمَا لَكُمْ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِنْ عِدَّةٍ تَعْتَدُّونَهَا
(65:1:7) liʿiddatihinna   for their waiting period   إِذَا طَلَّقْتُمُ النِّسَاءَ فَطَلِّقُوهُنَّ لِعِدَّتِهِنَّ وَأَحْصُوا الْعِدَّةَ
(65:1:9) l-ʿidata   (of) the waiting period   إِذَا طَلَّقْتُمُ النِّسَاءَ فَطَلِّقُوهُنَّ لِعِدَّتِهِنَّ وَأَحْصُوا الْعِدَّةَ
(65:4:9) faʿiddatuhunna   then their waiting period   إِنِ ارْتَبْتُمْ فَعِدَّتُهُنَّ ثَلَاثَةُ أَشْهُرٍ
(74:31:9) ʿiddatahum   their number   وَمَا جَعَلْنَا عِدَّتَهُمْ إِلَّا فِتْنَةً لِلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا

That's why I put the iddatahum in 74:31 as time-cycle or system and not the number of the malaika. All of this is a sign for human beings.
At the first time, I think there's no way to accept the Luni-Solar calendar for me since it has 13th month for every 2-3 years. I think it's not a perfect creation and miss the calculation, until I realize that the imperfect of the Luni-Solar is required to support the perfect time-system called 19 years cycle, as you can see in my quote.

But feel free to have your own opinion, it doesn't have to be the same for everyone.

peace

[ayman]

Thanks for the reply?Of course the root word is ?ra ba ayn? and the statement is saying that its root is from the word of Arba?a which means 4 and it is correct BUT  one letter made it sounds incorrect !!It depends on how one would like to read the statement and wants to hear what it meant!!

The more complex form ARB'A is derived from the simple root RB' and not the other way around as you just said.

This is the problem with you Ayman ,you read and hear what you?d like to hear not what the truth is?Lexicon dictionary has extensive explanation of the root word and its derivative especially about Rabi ?You only stick to the spring meaning and left no explanation how on earth Arab would have/call two months as spring season !

Actually, the dictionary explains exactly how we ended up with first spring and second spring. Here is a copy and paste from the dictionary:

العرب تجعل السنة ستة أَزمنة: شهران منها الربيع الأَوّل، وشهران صَيْف، وشهران قَيظ، وشهران الربيع الثاني، وشهران خريف وشهران شتاء؛

Translation: The Arabs made the year into six seasons, each two months: Rabi Alawal, Sayf, Qayz, Rabi Althani, Khareef, Shitaa

You distorted the Sacred months and the Ramadan just because never put your Trust in God to be so Kind and Merciful leaving us some kind of mark and guidance for those who wish to be guided...
You don?t believe in a Merciful God Who is asking us to fast and perform the Hajj helping the people have some kind of calendar to follow it?.
And a Merciful God to mark the beginning of the Hajj by letting the people name the first month of it as Zulhijjah/posseser of Hajj and then revealing it  the Sacred months are consecutive months?.

OK. We are in full agreement that the present month so-called Zulhijjah was named by people. You also said that I "never put my trust in the god", then why do you demand of me to put my trust in the people???

Who are the genius people that invented this name?
When did they invent it?
And why did they do it at that precise moment?
Had they invented a month later then what you know as Muharram would have been Zhulhijjah.
How did they decide on the relative order of the months?
Why didn't they invent this a few years earlier or later? Even with all things being equal, had they invented the name 3 years earlier then your Zulhijjah would have been what is presently known as Zhulqiida, due to the fact that the lunar calendar falls behind by about a month every three years. Had they invented it 9 year earlier then this past Zulhijjah would have been in the heat of the summer and not in November.

And a Merciful God Who is revealing that the phases of the moon is for timing the Hajj, teaching us using the lunar calendar and proving that the people knew  about the
Hajj and the calendar but testing His Messenger by beating around the bush ?.

So how come you don't use any of the phases of the moon for the timing of the "hajj"? Your so-called Hajj arbitrarily starts on the 8th of Zulhijjah and not with any phase of the moon and arbitrarily ends on 13th of Zulhijjah and not with any of the phases of the moon.

And a Merciful God Who is telling us in 56:40 ?? Many from the later generations? will go to Paradise reminding us their Quiblah , Hajj and fasting were accepted .

If your "hajj" like that of Khalifa and Edip consists of the idoltarous practices of spinning around some pagan stone cube and pagan Black Stone then you are buying a one way ticket to hell and not paradise.

And a Merciful God Who doesn't make the religion complicated or difficult to follow it..

Yes.

Do the Muslims? worlds know any Focal point other than the Kaaba? Do they know any sacred months other than at least Zulhijjah and Safar and Moharram? Do they know any month other than Ramadan for fasting according the calendar?

Actually, they know nothing. If you don't believe me go ask any so-called Muslim about the four "sacred months" and what do they do in them and how does their behavior change in them or what is special about them. They never pay attention to those supposed four months and they come and go every year without anyone noticing.

If there hasn?t been one believer for the last 1400 years on the right path then we all should put our hope and trust in people like you guiding us to the right direction not God, you who don?t even show your face to the public dear Ayman!!!

As you admitted earlier, you are putting your hope and trust in some mysterious unknown people who named a month Zulhijjah. So you might as well put your hope and trust in me. 

Ayman my Trust in God is so strong that I believe even if it is for the sake of one believer to be saved  on this earth He would keep the sacred months, Ramadan and Quiblah as they are?.It all depends on how we know God and how much we trust Him...

How do those things that people named "sacred months", "Ramadan" and Qiblah save anyone???

Peace,

Ayman

[mmkhan]

the keyword here is ʿiddatahum in 74:31. Here is the dictionary taken from Corpus for the similar words. Sometimes it talks about number and mostly talked about time frame:
Noun
(2:184:10) faʿiddatun   then a prescribed number   فَمَنْ كَانَ مِنْكُمْ مَرِيضًا أَوْ عَلَىٰ سَفَرٍ فَعِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَيَّامٍ أُخَرَ
(2:185:24) faʿiddatun   then prescribed number (should be made up)   وَمَنْ كَانَ مَرِيضًا أَوْ عَلَىٰ سَفَرٍ فَعِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَيَّامٍ أُخَرَ
(2:185:37) l-ʿidata   the prescribed period   يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ بِكُمُ الْيُسْرَ وَلَا يُرِيدُ بِكُمُ الْعُسْرَ وَلِتُكْمِلُوا الْعِدَّةَ
(9:36:2) ʿiddata   (the) number   إِنَّ عِدَّةَ الشُّهُورِ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ اثْنَا عَشَرَ شَهْرًا فِي كِتَابِ اللَّهِ
(9:37:15) ʿiddata   the number   يُحِلُّونَهُ عَامًا وَيُحَرِّمُونَهُ عَامًا لِيُوَاطِئُوا عِدَّةَ مَا حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ
(18:22:18) biʿiddatihim   their number   قُلْ رَبِّي أَعْلَمُ بِعِدَّتِهِمْ مَا يَعْلَمُهُمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلٌ
(33:49:17) ʿiddatin   waiting period   فَمَا لَكُمْ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِنْ عِدَّةٍ تَعْتَدُّونَهَا
(65:1:7) liʿiddatihinna   for their waiting period   إِذَا طَلَّقْتُمُ النِّسَاءَ فَطَلِّقُوهُنَّ لِعِدَّتِهِنَّ وَأَحْصُوا الْعِدَّةَ
(65:1:9) l-ʿidata   (of) the waiting period   إِذَا طَلَّقْتُمُ النِّسَاءَ فَطَلِّقُوهُنَّ لِعِدَّتِهِنَّ وَأَحْصُوا الْعِدَّةَ
(65:4:9) faʿiddatuhunna   then their waiting period   إِنِ ارْتَبْتُمْ فَعِدَّتُهُنَّ ثَلَاثَةُ أَشْهُرٍ
(74:31:9) ʿiddatahum   their number   وَمَا جَعَلْنَا عِدَّتَهُمْ إِلَّا فِتْنَةً لِلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا

That's why I put the iddatahum in 74:31 as time-cycle or system and not the number of the malaika. All of this is a sign for human beings.
At the first time, I think there's no way to accept the Luni-Solar calendar for me since it has 13th month for every 2-3 years. I think it's not a perfect creation and miss the calculation, until I realize that the imperfect of the Luni-Solar is required to support the perfect time-system called 19 years cycle, as you can see in my quote.

But feel free to have your own opinion, it doesn't have to be the same for everyone.

peace

Salaam tlihawa,

Do you really think brother that the word Iddat has two meanings? I don't think so. Every word of AlQuraan has a single concept as per my understanding.

Instead of using two different meanings for the word Iddat, you can use the word count, it may suite all the aayaats inshaAllah.

Brother you are simply using the same logic as 19er, but just to differ them from the direct usage of 19 you took it as time-system. It seems to me such, may Allah forgive me if I am wrong. Does it make any difference if you use the number 19 directly on your concept?

I totally agree with you on the blue part above.


May Allah bless you and guide us to His true path 
mmKhan

[farida]

the keyword here is ʿiddatahum in 74:31. Here is the dictionary taken from Corpus for the similar words. Sometimes it talks about number and mostly talked about time frame:
Noun
(9:36:2) ʿiddata   (the) number   إِنَّ عِدَّةَ الشُّهُورِ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ اثْنَا عَشَرَ شَهْرًا فِي كِتَابِ اللَّهِ
(9:37:15) ʿiddata   the number   يُحِلُّونَهُ عَامًا وَيُحَرِّمُونَهُ عَامًا لِيُوَاطِئُوا عِدَّةَ مَا حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ

(74:31:9) ʿiddatahum   their number   وَمَا جَعَلْنَا عِدَّتَهُمْ إِلَّا فِتْنَةً لِلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا

That's why I put the iddatahum in 74:31 as time-cycle or system and not the number of the malaika. All of this is a sign for human beings.
At the first time, I think there's no way to accept the Luni-Solar calendar for me since it has 13th month for every 2-3 years. I think it's not a perfect creation and miss the calculation, until I realize that the imperfect of the Luni-Solar is required to support the perfect time-system called 19 years cycle, as you can see in my quote.

But feel free to have your own opinion, it doesn't have to be the same for everyone.

peace

Salaam tlihawa
I am not a 19r but as this number is mentioned in the Quran for that reason I think your point of view is plausible. Since there are two types of time period/year in the Quran sana and 3am could it be that your understanding of ʿiddatahum? in 74:31 as cycle of 19 years period which is actually 3am???
See in 9:37, which is about the sacret months year, the word used is ?Aaman?.
Whereas the word used to signify a ?day?, in the sight of Allah, is ?sanat? Also see 22;47 which, as I understand it, means that a full lunar cycle of days is 1x1000.... ?Verily a Day in the sight of our Lord is like a thousand years of our taAAuddoona...what do you think?

Regarding Hajj and Ramadan: Timing for the Hajj and fasting were known to people at the time of the revelation of the Quran, so they followed it as this was not a new addition to the Deen. For that reason I firmly believe that, even though names have been allocated to the lunar months, their pattern remains unchanged.
Peace

[Asana]

Peace  Ayman

The more complex form ARB'A is derived from the simple root RB' and not the other way around as you just said.

One more time you misunderstood it?.The word of Arba?a is four and its root is the same as Rabi?.The statement was saying that.

Actually, the dictionary explains exactly how we ended up with first spring and second spring. Here is a copy and paste from the dictionary:

I didn?t want to know or meant to ask you why there is two springs!....I gave you hint that you just mentioned the spring without further explanation?.BTW it?s written that Arab say Sharul-Rabi ?the word of Shar/month is necessarily added in order to discriminate between the months thus called and the season called Rabi??. So Ayman why would you only like to stick to what you?d like to hear??!!!!!!If Arabs want to call their season Rabi and call a month Rabi too what?s your problem trying to confuse the people over it? Who cares how many seasons they had/have etc?.the important thing that concerns us is they call/name 2 months Rabi in their calendar  too??.END OF STORY !

OK. We are in full agreement that the present month so-called Zulhijjah was named by people. You also said that I "never put my trust in the god", then why do you demand of me to put my trust in the people???

Please do not twist the logic and essence of my message?.Nothing happens without God?s Will?.God Willed the Lunar calendar take form in order people use it for the time of Hajj and 4 sacred months?Maybe name of the Lunar calendar were chosen by some godly man chosen by God ,who knows?Whatever happened surely the month of Zulhijjah took after certain rite as Hajj and means possessor of the Hajj ?. God teaches us there are 4 consecutive sacred months...For a sincere believer that?s enough without further debating.

So how come you don't use any of the phases of the moon for the timing of the "hajj"? Your so-called Hajj arbitrarily starts on the 8th of Zulhijjah and not with any phase of the moon and arbitrarily ends on 13th of Zulhijjah and not with any of the phases of the moon.

As much as it concerns me from the teaching of the Quran month of Zulhijjah is beginning of the season of the hajj and it last for 4 months?.No matter when one would like to go there during these months?They should observe what they?re asked to.

If your "hajj" like that of Khalifa and Edip consists of the idoltarous practices of spinning around some pagan stone cube and pagan Black Stone then you are buying a one way ticket to hell and not paradise.

Please don?t be so clever saying something that you think is very intelligent utterance?.The whole universe is spinning around some entity that you and me can't fathom His greatness.....Everybody knows the significant of  the circumvolution around the Kaaba??.I?ve been there and I know the feeling?.The sincere believer immerse in his/her own thought glorifying The Lord of universe without paying attention or noticing of the environment ?.Your concept/utterence is like Satan when was asked to prostrate to Adam saw himself above him?.Adam was a clay to him?.Kaaba is a clay to you too not that it's the command of God in doing what you are asked to.
BTW if Khalifa, I and Edip are buying a one way ticket to hell, there is still hope for us but you should know that you have reached there!

Actually, they know nothing. If you don't believe me go ask any so-called Muslim about the four "sacred months" and what do they do in them and how does their behavior change in them or what is special about them. They never pay attention to those supposed four months and they come and go every year without anyone noticing.

I agree but what is got to do with having the calendar ?!!

Peace
Asana