Confusion over 2:259

[mubashir55]

Salam Friends





Following are two versions of 2:259:



[Muhammad Asad]



Or [art thou, O man, of the same mind] as he who passed by a town deserted by its people, with its roofs caved in, [and] said, "How could God bring all this back to life after its death?" Thereupon God caused him to be dead for a hundred years; where after He brought him back to life [and] said: "How long hast thou remained thus?" He answered: "I have remained thus a day, or part of a day." Said [God]: "Nay, but thou hast remained thus for a hundred years! But look at thy food and thy drink-untouched is it by the passing of years - and look at thine ass! And [We did all this so that We might make thee a symbol unto men. And look at the bones [of animals and men] - how We put them together and then clothe them with flesh!" And when [all this] became clear to him, he said: "I know [now] that God has the power to will anything!"



[Amatul Rahman Omar]



Or consider the case of him (- Ezekiel) who passed by a town (- Jerusalem as it was left in desolation by Nebuchadnezzar) and it had fallen in upon its roofs. He said, `When will Allah restore this (town) to life after its destruction?' So (in his vision) Allah kept him in a state of death for a hundred years, then He raised him (to life). Then (God) said, `How long have you stayed (in this state of death)?' He replied, `I may have stayed a day or a part of a day (in this state).' (God) said, `(Yes this too is correct) but (as you have witnessed in your vision) you have stayed for a hundred years. Now look at your food and drink, they have escaped the action of time, and look at your donkey (too, years have not passed over it). And (We have made you visualize all this) that We may make you a sign to the people. And look at the (dead) bones how We set them together and then clothe them with flesh.' Thus when the fact of the matter became clear to him, he said, `I know that Allah is the Possessor of full power to do all that He will.'

I am sure it's me but I fail to understand, by the way this verse has been translated, how is it providing proof of life after death (for nations/individuals).



From what I have understood, a man is given proof of Allah's revival by Allah:



1. causing him to die
2. Resurrecting him after 100 years.
3. Drawing his attention to his food and drink and his donkey to show no effects of decay
4. Giving him example of how the process of process of creation of life proceeds by bones being clothed by flesh.



I can understand Allah giving death to the man and reviving him after 100 years but would it not make more sense if Allah had shown him remains of his decayed body of his donkey and spoilt food as proof of him being dead for such a long time?



Would appreciate your comments.





Mubashir







It is necessary to the happiness of man that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving, it consists in professing to believe what one does not believe. -- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1794)

[nimnimak_11]

Why would that make more sense? Does he have to see his own dead body to believe that a 100 years have passed?

Perhaps the the sign that he was meant to witness was just the revival of the town which took 100 years to be rebuilt and so on.

His own body not being dead for him to witness might be because the way in which The God put him to death was by maybe freezing him and the fruits? Some accident causes him to freeze by the will of God and it takes 100 years for him to defrost and in that time the town has been rebuilt. 

[mubashir55]

The story or parable is to provide proof of how Allah revives the dead nations/cities/individuals.

Therefore If the food had rotted and all that was left of the donkey was a decayed skeleton (which is what happens to such things over a period of 100 years) the resurrected man would have believed that he was indeed dead for a 100 years.

[amuslim]

Peace,

Here is how Dr. Shabbir conveys this verse and maybe it might help you:

2:258 Think of the one who adamantly argued with Abraham about his Lord
because God had given him power. Abraham said to him, ?My Lord is He Who
gives life and causes death." He answered, ?I give life and cause death.?
Abraham said, ?God makes the sun rise from the East; make it rise from the
West.? Thereupon the rejecter of the truth remained dumbfounded. And God
does not guide people who choose to do wrong.

[Nimrod Shaddad, King of Babylon, Abraham?s contemporary and staunch
enemy, used to proclaim divinity. Being a tyrant he could impose or cancel
death penalty. That is what he means by giving life and causing death]

2:259 (Later on, came another king in the dynasty of Nimrods, his name,
Nebuchadnezzar, 630-562 BC. He invaded Jerusalem, oppressed Israelites and
enslaved them. One hundred years of tribulation passed before King Cyrus of
Persia liberated them and reinstated them back in Jerusalem. This history
bears a lesson for posterity.)

The similitude of this history is that someone passes by the ruins of a town
and wonders if that town could ever come back to life again, and God causes
him to die for a hundred years and then revives him. He thinks it was only a
matter of a day or a part of it. He even finds his food, drink, and donkey
standing beside him. God creates you in the wombs of your mothers, in bone
and flesh. And when the matter became clear to him, he said, ?I know now that
God is Able to do all things. God is the all Powerful Designer of His laws and
He does all things in the Universe in duly appointed measure.? [13:18, 25:2,
65:3, 54:49]

2:260 Abraham wanted to understand the law of Revival of nations. God asked
him if he believed that it were possible. Abraham said he believed but that he
wanted a practical example to educate his heart and mind. God told him to
take four birds and train them in a kind manner, and then to leave them far
apart on separate hilltops. And then call them; they will come in quickly. Then
know that God is Exalted in Power, Wise.
[At one call of Abraham, those birds came flying back to him. This is how
mankind can be brought to the Word of God with decent advice and training,
giving them a new life]

Peace

[mubashir55]

For the sake of further discussion allow me to share how G A Parwez interprets this verse:

258        O Jama?at-ul-Momineen! you will face great difficulties in the establishment of the Divine Order as was the case with Abraham. The king himself was his adversary and disputed even the existence of Allah merely on the basis of his worldly power. Abraham told the king that he believed in Allah Who has control over life and death. The king said that in his kingdom he had control over life and death. Seeing the king?s mentality, Abraham did not pursue the point but said: ?If you have supreme authority in your kingdom then you should make the sun which rises in the East in accordance with Allah?s Law, come out from the West.? The king was dumbfounded by Abraham?s argument.

               Persons with such mentality seldom adopt the right path.

259        (From Laws relating to an individual?s life and death We now move to the Laws relating to the life and death of nations.) As is known in history, after the destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar, the Bani-Isr?ael lived in captivity for about a hundred years. Then they were liberated and re-established in Jerusalem. This story has been narrated in the Quran symbolically as follows: A person passing through a ruined habitation asked if such a devastated place could have new life. Allah kept him in a death-like state for a hundred years, then gave him new life and asked him: ?How long have you remained in this state?? He replied: ?May be a day or so.? Allah said to him: ?You have been in this state for a hundred years but your food and drink has not gone bad and your ass is still standing as before. You should also reflect upon the process by which man develops from the embryonic state to where he becomes a living human being.? 

              When the passer-by had reflected upon the parable, he said: ?Now I can understand how Allah can give life to dead nations.?

260        Each Nabi has been confronted with the problem of giving life to a dead nation. For instance, Abraham faced such a problem and said to Allah: ?What is the process by which new life may be infused into a dead nation??. Allah asked him: ?Do you not believe that dead nations may receive new life??. Abraham said: ?I do believe but I would like to know by what process, so that I can undertake it with full confidence.? Allah explained the process to Abraham through an example. He said: ?Take four untamed birds. At first they will seek to get away from you. Make them familiar with yourself gradually. This will bring about remarkable change in them. Even if you set them free and call to them, they will come to you swiftly.? This is how you must patiently reform those who rebel against your call and bring them close to yourself and make them understand and appreciate the Divine System. This is how they will receive ?life.? Most certainly Allah is All-Mighty, Wise. 

[Bigmo]

One of the biggest dissappointments I had wth Koranist is their trampling with the Koranic verses when they translate but end up trying to interpret by placing words in paragraphs that is not part of the Arabic text. This made me realize that religion can often be pushed by agendas. That is why the only people who can translate the Koran are people who do not believe its divinity. This way they can translate it linguistically and leave the interpretation for the reader.

We are VERY luck we have the original Arabic text or else we would have had different versions each trying to push an agenda.

Its a very unethical practice and shows the lack of understanding between tranlsation and interpretation.

[mubashir55]

Dear Bigmo

You do have a point. However, if a person translating the Qur'an clearly states that it is not a translation, but an exposition/interpretation according to the best of his knowledge than the reader knows what he/she is dealing with.

Dr Shabbir and G A Parwez clearly spell their method of interpretation out so we should not blame them and take it as another attempt to present the Quran.

Regards

[mubashir55]

Here is a response that I would like to share to help us arrive at a reasonable conclusion. As a few translators suggested that when the man woke up the donkey was alive, it creates confusion. This also underscores the importance of reading multiple transations when we find something in the Qur'an that does not makes sense to us. Besides we are told in the Qur'an that believers do not fall deaf/dumb/blind over Allah's signs (which includes His scripture):

Aslamaolaikum br. Mubashir / all.

I find this a straight forward parable which shows that God is beyond human concept of time and that life, death and ultimate raising is within God's power. I find Yusuf Ali's note quite compelling:

Note. 305:

"A man is in despair when he sees the destruction of a whole people, city, or civilization. But Allah can cause resurrection, as He has done many times in history, and as He will do at the final Resurrection. Time is nothing before Allah. The doubter thinks that he has been dead or "tarried thus" a day or less when the period has been a century. On the other hand, the food and drink which he left behind is intact, and as fresh as it was when he left it. But the donkey is not only dead, but nothing but bones is left of it. And before the man's eyes, the bones are reunited, clothed with flesh and blood, and restored to life. Moral: Time is nothing to Allah; it affects different things in different ways; The keys of life and death are in Allah's hands; Man's power is nothing; his faith should be in Allah."

What would be the problem in accepting such an explanation or are we suggesting that miracles don't happen? If so, if we can't accept that God could resurrect the donkey, then how can one believe that resurrection on the Day? Surely we can't deny that too. It is within God's power to do anything.

My two cents worth. Thanks, Saba.

[amuslim]

Peace

One of the biggest dissappointments I had wth Koranist is their trampling with the Koranic verses when they translate but end up trying to interpret by placing words in paragraphs that is not part of the Arabic text. This made me realize that religion can often be pushed by agendas. That is why the only people who can translate the Koran are people who do not believe its divinity. This way they can translate it linguistically and leave the interpretation for the reader.

We are VERY luck we have the original Arabic text or else we would have had different versions each trying to push an agenda.

Its a very unethical practice and shows the lack of understanding between tranlsation and interpretation.

While what you say is true to some extents, we have to keep in mind that the Arabic is compounded with many different meanings.  Hence, one word can relate an entire sentence.  That is the beauty of Arabic that we do not necessarily have in English and therefore it should be translated to the best of the translators abilities.  Dr. Shabbir even states in the opening of his rendition that it is not a literal/word-by-word translation. 

http://www.linguisticmiracle.com/language

Peace

[NOMAD]

Sallam

I dont want to be rude to get in middle of the debate 

But as long as we keep proper names of People and Places:EX ISa And Maryam(Ibn Imrain, and Sister of HArun and Musa) and not just translated by Jesus and Mary, we will be able to find by ourselfs and search roots, wotherwise the much time we keep the false translations of Names and Places to "fill NT LOVERS and HADITH" we will be roaming in the Desert,