Road of the Patriarch

[GODsubmitter]

Salaam,

I know that this topic is a bit old but it is certainly worth reviving it. It is a great analysis done with critical mind, I myself verified few things and although I am tend to agree with many analysis, too many questions remain unanswered and I wouuld be very grateful if Pazuzu could address them:

1. Still, this research doesnt really say where is the Baka, any indications on the old maps would help, linguistic, ethnographic analysis, could anyone help? Up until now I tend to believe that it is in Jerusalem, although I am open to logical and convincing argument which would show otherwise

2. Horticultural clues for the city of peace, Surah at Tin:

Sūrat al-Tīn (Arabic: التين‎, The Fig, The Figtree) is the 95th sura of the Qur'an with 8 ayat.

Translation:

(I Swear) By the fig and (by) the olive (1)

And [I Swear by] Mount Sinai (it says Sineen) (2)

And [I Swear by] this secure land (what land, does it say Baka/Dar us Salam or what?), (3)

We have certainly created man (and woman) in the best of stature; (4)

Then We returned (him/her) to the lowest of the lowest, (5)

Except those who believe (in the oneness of Allah) and do righteous deeds, for they will have a reward uninterrupted. (6)

So what yet causes you to deny the Recompense? (7)

Is not Allah the most just of judges? (8

My understanding of this surah is that figs and olives can be a very important clue to understand where this secure land or Baka was
Now, according to Wikipedia (I know what you're going to say but I'm not a horticulturist so I have no idea what are more reliable surces to study the origin of these two species):

'The edible fig is one of the first plants that was cultivated by humans. Nine subfossil figs of a parthenocarpic (and therefore sterile) type dating to about 9400?9200 BC were found in the early Neolithic village Gilgal I (in the Jordan Valley, 13 km north of Jericho). The find predates the domestication of wheat, barley, and legumes, and may thus be the first known instance of agriculture' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_fig#History

and olive tree
'The edible olive has been cultivated for at least 5,000 to 6,000 years,[14] with the most ancient evidence of olive cultivation having been found in Syria, Israel and Crete.[15]The olive tree is native to the Mediterranean region and Western Asia, and spread to nearby countries from there.' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olive#Prehistory

What do you think about this approach, archeologist are using the carbon method to date the fossils and I tend to believe that it might be more or less correct? How about Yemen? As far as I know it was never the ancient habitat of olive and fig, it used to be mediterranean region??

3. Pazuzu, could you please provide me with the links, if any, to your research about the Mother of the Languages and about origin of Hebrew, I've done degree in african linguistics and to me it's really fascinating to analyse what is the origin of languages, I will appreciate it a lot.

Great work and looking forward to your response:) 

Peace
M.

Thank you for a very good post, I add my questions, too.

Of course Baka is Jerusalem, and I like your information about the olive tree.

Peace.

[Cana2010]

Peace evryone
I'm sorry for my english.  I'm from switzerland.  I just want to share an interesting link  www.koranlitranslateandtheconspiracy.com  there's an other theory for the location of the holy land.  Look at the topic Mekka is not Bakka ( pdf ).

[virtueorvice]

Salaam,

I know that this topic is a bit old but it is certainly worth reviving it. It is a great analysis done with critical mind, I myself verified few things and although I am tend to agree with many analysis, too many questions remain unanswered and I wouuld be very grateful if Pazuzu could address them:

1. Still, this research doesnt really say where is the Baka, any indications on the old maps would help, linguistic, ethnographic analysis, could anyone help? Up until now I tend to believe that it is in Jerusalem, although I am open to logical and convincing argument which would show otherwise

2. Horticultural clues for the city of peace, Surah at Tin:

Sūrat al-Tīn (Arabic: التين‎, The Fig, The Figtree) is the 95th sura of the Qur'an with 8 ayat.

Translation:

(I Swear) By the fig and (by) the olive (1)

And [I Swear by] Mount Sinai (it says Sineen) (2)

And [I Swear by] this secure land (what land, does it say Baka/Dar us Salam or what?), (3)

We have certainly created man (and woman) in the best of stature; (4)

Then We returned (him/her) to the lowest of the lowest, (5)

Except those who believe (in the oneness of Allah) and do righteous deeds, for they will have a reward uninterrupted. (6)

So what yet causes you to deny the Recompense? (7)

Is not Allah the most just of judges? (8

My understanding of this surah is that figs and olives can be a very important clue to understand where this secure land or Baka was
Now, according to Wikipedia (I know what you're going to say but I'm not a horticulturist so I have no idea what are more reliable surces to study the origin of these two species):

'The edible fig is one of the first plants that was cultivated by humans. Nine subfossil figs of a parthenocarpic (and therefore sterile) type dating to about 9400–9200 BC were found in the early Neolithic village Gilgal I (in the Jordan Valley, 13 km north of Jericho). The find predates the domestication of wheat, barley, and legumes, and may thus be the first known instance of agriculture' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_fig#History

and olive tree
'The edible olive has been cultivated for at least 5,000 to 6,000 years,[14] with the most ancient evidence of olive cultivation having been found in Syria, Israel and Crete.[15]The olive tree is native to the Mediterranean region and Western Asia, and spread to nearby countries from there.' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olive#Prehistory

What do you think about this approach, archeologist are using the carbon method to date the fossils and I tend to believe that it might be more or less correct? How about Yemen? As far as I know it was never the ancient habitat of olive and fig, it used to be mediterranean region??

3. Pazuzu, could you please provide me with the links, if any, to your research about the Mother of the Languages and about origin of Hebrew, I've done degree in african linguistics and to me it's really fascinating to analyse what is the origin of languages, I will appreciate it a lot.

Great work and looking forward to your response:) 

Peace
M.

Salam,

why don't you guys trouble yourself and read the three books to get the idea?!

ARABIA: The Untold Story
Book 1: The Search for Pharaoh
http://www.scribd.com/doc/132840113/Arabia-The-Untold-Story-Book-1-Search-for-Pharaoh

ARABIA: The Untold Story
Book 2: Road of the Patriarch
http://www.scribd.com/doc/132844965/ARABIA-The-Untold-Story-Book-2-Road-of-the-Patriarch

ARABIA: The Untold Story
Book 3: Israel and Sheba
http://www.scribd.com/doc/159441825/ARABIA-The-Untold-Story-Israel-and-Sheba

The two prominent links in this research are Linguistics and Archeological Evidences!

There are also books written by Israeli scholars that suggest the Kingdom of David and Solomon is a myth because the archeological evidence found in Israel is scant and doesn't allude to the presence of a mighty kingdom there!

I believe many guys who post on this forum just have to educate themselves before posting and wasting space and time!

[Zulf]

I also strongly recommend people to read these three books. They contains some very interesting, sound and solid information, and facts. The books are based on facts, and then we can all draw our conclusions. There is no need to expect final answers. It is enough to find out what can NOT be true or reasonable.

Anyone who finds an interest in this topic should read the books, and if someone doesn't feel like reading them, I don't think they're that serious about the topic.

Peace

[roshan_m]

I believe many guys who post on this forum just have to educate themselves before posting and wasting space and time!

Salaam to all,

I believe many guys who post on this forum and apparently consider themselves as the most knowledgeable in the universe just have to educate themselves how to be more patient and less arogant with others who might have happened to only recently discovered things and have a lot of questions about them. Seems that the latter forgot the time when they used to be confused and following conjencture!!

Anyways, thanks virtueorvice man for wasting your time to provide the links to the books, at least you let me to save mine  

I also strongly recommend people to read these three books. They contains some very interesting, sound and solid information, and facts. The books are based on facts, and then we can all draw our conclusions. There is no need to expect final answers. It is enough to find out what can NOT be true or reasonable.

Anyone who finds an interest in this topic should read the books, and if someone doesn't feel like reading them, I don't think they're that serious about the topic.

Peace

Thank you zulf for the recommendation, I only yesterday learned about the existence of these books and am very excited to read them, such a feast for the intellect to have on a table 

Peace evryone
I'm sorry for my english.  I'm from switzerland.  I just want to share an interesting link  www.koranlitranslateandtheconspiracy.com  there's an other theory for the location of the holy land.  Look at the topic Mekka is not Bakka ( pdf ).

Thanks cana2010 for the link, I happened to read the document already some time ago, although the rejection of mekka made sense to me, their proposal that it is the Sinai mountain didn't, so I kept on searching until now. Will see where it goes from there.

God bless you all
M.

[virtueorvice]

I believe many guys who post on this forum and apparently consider themselves as the most knowledgeable in the universe just have to educate themselves how to be more patient and less arogant with others who might have happened to only recently discovered things and have a lot of questions about them. Seems that the latter forgot the time when they used to be confused and following conjencture!!

Salam,

I don't claim that I am a knowledgeable person.

But i have to let you know that before posting i went through all the posts by Pazuzu, trying to read them one by one. In addition I have studied all the three books mentioned above, and the reason i joined this forum was to know more about Pazuzu and their research.

Anyway, not every person has the same tactics and strategies!

By wasting time and space I was mentioning the amount of few precious posts that get lost among so many unrelated, unimportant and futile posts by many others!

[roshan_m]

By wasting time and space I was mentioning the amount of few precious posts that get lost among so many unrelated, unimportant and futile posts by many others!

Salaam,

Also I wanted to let you knowt that I have read carefully ALL the posts on this thread and have considered asking the questions which I did, being aware that the thread is slightly inactive. The main point of my post were:

1) the analysis of horticulture (case study of olive and fig tree) in relation to the proposed by Pazuzu theory. After 2 days of research on his posts I am on the 15th page of his posts and yet still didn't find much analysis about those two trees apart from few mentions that they existed in Yemen without much references.
2) Question of Bakka: I think I found more or less convincing answer here
3) request for more references on lingistics and the Theory of the Mother of Languages. As i have said, I am very interested with this topic and done some proper research on the roots of many languages of the world and their similarity to roots in Arabic and other semitic languages and I believe that I also could contribute to the discussion very valuable points if someone could be willing to hear my feedback. I thought that it would beatifully compliment pazuzu's research, but never mind if you claim that my posts are irrelevant, unimportant and futile!

Peace
M.

[virtueorvice]

Salaam,

Also I wanted to let you knowt that I have read carefully ALL the posts on this thread and have considered asking the questions which I did, being aware that the thread is slightly inactive. The main point of my post were:

1) the analysis of horticulture (case study of olive and fig tree) in relation to the proposed by Pazuzu theory. After 2 days of research on his posts I am on the 15th page of his posts and yet still didn't find much analysis about those two trees apart from few mentions that they existed in Yemen without much references.
2) Question of Bakka: I think I found more or less convincing answer here
3) request for more references on lingistics and the Theory of the Mother of Languages. As i have said, I am very interested with this topic and done some proper research on the roots of many languages of the world and their similarity to roots in Arabic and other semitic languages and I believe that I also could contribute to the discussion very valuable points if someone could be willing to hear my feedback. I thought that it would beatifully compliment pazuzu's research, but never mind if you claim that my posts are irrelevant, unimportant and futile!

Peace
M.

The valleys of ‘Aseer and Yemen have also been known to harbor breeding grounds for locusts, up until not too long ago. (So when you think of the Old Testament stories speaking of locusts and famine which plagued the land of Msrim, you know where to look). It is also the region that sees the most rainfall in all of Arabia, both in winter and in summer. It is a land known for its wooded mountains (Tūr), on which trees of many varieties grow, including Junipers, Lote trees Cedars, Acacia, Bramble, and Cyprus  trees. Its mountain slopes have been made into stepped terraces ideal for agriculture, for over 4000 years, and are among the most fertile regions in the Middle East. Figs, olives, dates, grapes, pomegranates and a wide variety of nuts and seeds are grown there until today. The honey of Yemen (the legendary Cedar Honey) is greatly prized globally, and considered one of the finest brands of honey in the world. It is a land known for its rich livestock grazing grounds as well as for its mineral resources of iron, gold, and copper, some of whose reserves remain untapped. - The Road of The Patriarch

The advocates of the Palestinian Ṭūr  theory actually thought that the Qur’ān supported their argument, specifically in the following passage: {And a tree which emerges from Ṭūr Seenā’; it grows with oil and is a relish for those who eat}…[23:20]. Their argument is that olives do not - nor did they ever - grow on the so-called “Sinai Peninsula”, which means that the Egyptian Ṭūr theory clearly contradicts the Qur’ān. Whereas, on the other hand, the “Blessed Land” (al-arḍ  al-mubāraka) - which they automatically assumed was Palestine - had plenty of olive trees all year round. In fact, the mountain in question, which overlooks Jerusalem, is called “the Mount of Olives”, and its peak is around 850 meters above sea level. Their conclusion was that Ṭūr Seenā’ is in fact the Mount of Olives.

What the proponents of the Mount of Olives didn’t realize  is that they had  fallen under the influence of an old and fruitless Jewish debate regarding the true location of “Mount Sinai”, a debate that is still raging until today. In fact, some Jewish sects firmly believe that the Mount of Olives is “Mount Sinai”, where the Lord spoke to Mūsa. A more recent theory among Biblical scholars and academics has even placed Mount Sinai in the far north of Saudi Arabia, claiming that it is none other than  the famous Jabal al-Lawz, a peculiar-looking mountain with a blackened peak, located near the city of Tabūk, not far from the Jordanian border. Still, others have claimed that Mount Sinai  is somewhere in the Negev desert! -Search for Pharaoh

The Books II and III are filled with place names: the similarity between the names cited in Arabian Poetry and Geographical Books with the names in the Old Testament!

As far as I know, Bakkah and Makkah will be tackled in the upcoming books... anyway, I hope Pazuzu will shed more light!

Also you can see The Queen of Sheba and Biblical Scholarship by Bernard Leeman: http://www.scribd.com/doc/86438965/2009-Queen-of-Sheba-and-Biblical-Scholarship

You might also be interested in reading Kamal Salibi's books if you can find them!

[huruf]

I think that to pick a place just on the fig and the olive is to hazardous. Those species will grow anywhere where the climate is right and there is enough water. So, in a quite wide lattitude range. To think without proper verification that in the whole of the Arabian peninsula there could not be any fig or olives is too daring for my taste.

Even, classical Mekka, how can we be sure there weren't plenty of those?
If there was water, the climate is right. And there was water, otherwise there could no be habitation.

Salaam

Salaam

[hafeez kazi]

Peace all

The following are verses from the Quran which proves that the present MECCA in Saudi Arabia is not the Mecca of the Quran

And assuredly We have destroyed the CITIES/TOWNS AROUND YOU, and We have variously propounded our signs, that haply they might return 46:27

What is the meaning of AROUND YOU (MECCA)

See the map of Mecca and find out how many villages/towns/cities were around it. Were there any TOWNS around MECCA destroyed by Allah? Can the above statement be validated by history and archaeology of Mecca? You won't find a single place being destroyed by Allah around MECCA.

Is it not a WARNING for them (to observe) how many generations We destroyed before them, amid whose DWELLING places they do WALK? Lo! Therein verily are Signs! Will they not then heed? 32:26

Is it not a WARNING to such men (to call to mind) how many generations before them We destroyed, in whose DWELLINGS they do WALK? Verily, in this are Signs for men endued with understanding 20:128

Is there any archaeological proof that the people of Mecca were walking in the DWELLINGS wich was destroyed by Allah before? Was MECCA or around MECCA destroyed by Allah?

And indeed they have come upon the town (town of LOUT, supposed to be in Jordan, some 1400 kms away from Mecca) whereon was rained the fatal rain. Can it be that they have not seen it? Nay, but they hope for no resurrection 25:40

The people of Mecca saw the ruins of the people of LUT. How did the people of Mecca saw the ruins of Lut when it was under the DEAD SEA) If Jordan is the destination of the people of Lout then where should be the location of the following prophets

"And O my people! let not my dissent (from you) cause you to sin, lest ye suffer a fate similar to that of the people of Noah or of Hud or of Salih, nor are the people of Lut far off from you 11:89

Prophet Shuaib proclaimed to his people that the people of Noah, Hud, Salih and Lut are NOT FAR AWAY FROM YOU and this means that the people of Shuaib were the successors to these people and knew the stories of the said prophets because their dwelling place was not far away from each other. If Lut was in Jordan then the rest of the prophets should also be in Jordan but according to the verses of the Quran and the historical data available there is no doubt that all these prophets were never in Jordan but old Yemen.   

And surely (the town of Lout) it is on a road established /that still abides 15:76

So We took retribution from them (Lut and Shuaib), and indeed, both [cities] are on a clear highway 15:79

If the town of Lout is under the Dead Sea in Jordan, then why Allah is saying that it is on a road established and on a highway?

You pass by {their habitations (of Lout)} (IN JORDAN) in the morning and by night: will ye not understand 37:137/138

Is it possible to see the ruined town of Lout in the morning and at night while Jordan is located at a distance of 1400 kms from Mecca?

And ye dwell in the dwellings of those who had wronged themselves and it had become manifest unto you in what wise We had dealt with them, and We had propounded for you similitudes. 14:45

In whose dwellings the people of Mecca were dwelling? Of Noah, Hud, Salih,or Shuaib? TO THE PEOPLE OF MECCA it was MANIFEST in what way Allah dealt with the prior people. Is the verse applicable to the people of Mecca.

The people of Mecca nor the Prophet knew about the previous prophets and people

Such are some of the stories of the unseen, which We have revealed unto thee: before this, neither thou nor thy people knew them. So persevere patiently: for the End is for those who are righteous 11:49

We do relate unto thee the most beautiful of stories, in that We reveal to thee this (portion of the) Qur'an: before this, thou too was among those who knew it not. 12:3

Such is one of the stories of what happened unseen, which We reveal by inspiration unto thee; nor wast thou (present) with them then when they concerted their plans together in the process of weaving their plots 12:102

We relate to you such accounts of earlier towns: some of them are still standing; while others have ceased to exist; 11:100

And all that We relate unto thee of the story of the messengers is in order that thereby We may make firm thy heart. And herein hath come unto thee the Truth and an exhortation and a reminder for believers 11:120

Thus do We relate to thee some stories of what happened before: for We have sent thee a Message from Our own Presence 20:99

The prophet and his people were unaware of the stories of the people and the messengers of the past and it is Allah who is relating the prophet their stories through Quran and in the same Quran the above fabricated story of Abraham, his wife Hajar, the Zam Zam is not mentioned. The absence of the story in the Quran, the prophet and his people?s unawareness of the stories of the past messengers and its people are a clear indication that the above story is 100% fabricated. The truth is that Abraham never put his foot on the soil of Mecca but somewhere in Yemen. We find the story of Abraham arguing with his father, praying for his father?s forgiveness, Abraham breaking the idols, Abraham being thrown into the fire, Abraham migrating with Lout, Abraham pleading for Lout?s people, Abraham settling his SONS in a valley, Abraham raising the foundation of the Kaaba (traditional translation) but what is surprising is that the story which is the foundation of Islam is nowhere mentioned in the Quran. The Quran says that the prophet was unaware of the stories of the past and the above story of Abraham is also not mentioned in the Quran, but the pro hadithers  say that the above story was related by the prophet and thus by proclaiming this, they are contradicting the statement of the Quran. Anything that is not mentioned in the Quran should be considered as a conjecture and should be discarded.


And (the tribes of) A'ad and Thamud! (Their fate) is manifest unto you from their (ruined and deserted) dwellings. Satan made their deeds seem fair unto them and so debarred them rom the Way, though they were keen observers 29:38

The ruined dwellings of Aad and Thamud were manifest to the people of the First House (MECCA/KAABA) but unfortunately these towns were located in YEMEN.

That is from the stories of the Cities (of Noah, Hud, Salih, Lout, Shuaib, Moses) which We recount unto thee: of them some are standing and some mown down 11:100

Some of the above towns did exist during the period of the prophet while some were mown by the pass of the time.

The above verses disqualifies Mecca / Kaaba as the claimant of the FIRST HOUSE

For we are going to bring down on the people of this township (LOUT) a Punishment from heaven, because they have been wickedly rebellious And assuredly We have left thereof MANIFEST SIGN for a people who reflect. 29:34/35

So THOSE ARE THEIR HOUSES desolate because of the wrong they had done. Indeed in that is a SIGN for people who know27:52

The RUINS of the previously destroyed DWELLINGS were the manifest SIGN for the current inhabitants

Do you find such HOUSES around Mecca / Kaaba?

IF YOU STILL BELIEVE THAT THE ABOVE VERSES ARE REVEALED IN THE CONTEXT OF SAUDI MECCA THEN GO AHEAD AND IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THEN THINK OVER IT.

I BELIEVE THAT THE ABOVE VERSES AND DISCOVERY OF THE TOWN OF AAD'S PEOPLE (IRAM /UBAR) NEAR OMAN / YEMEN BORDER AND SURAH AHQAF IS A POINTER TOWARDS YEMEN

Read more on UBAR / IRAM

http://harunyahya.com/en/Books/904/perished-nations/chapter/3291

Thanks