Convert - Shia inclined but very curious

[chickpea]

Salams,

I hope you are all well.
I am very new to Islam (started praying salat 2010, 1st read Quran Ramadan 2011) and my introduction came through Shia friends of mine.
I am both attracted and repelled by Quran only Islam. Attracted because im aware of the propensity for people to corrupt and manipulate according to their own weaknesses and desires, and this leads to me to worries about putting too much store in ahadith and being misled (i dont know too much about ahadith science as yet, but from what ive read it leads me to favour a healthy skeptisim, whilst trying not to throw the baby out with the bath water, as its unlikely that its all baloney as well. So i tend to only consider ahadith that is considered most authentic or mutawatir). Repelled because im aware of the propensity for people to corrupt and manipulate according to their own weaknesses and desires, and this leads to me to worries about people interpreting Quran to fit their own personal morality, rather than what is likely and proveable.
As im so green and very early in my Arabic learning i have to rely heavily on other people for translation and understanding, and its alarming at how wildly it can differ and how plausable opposing arguments can sound.

Anyway, i'm hoping hanging around here can help me to get to something like a comfortable resolution and hope to make some friends along the way =)

[Producer]

my stance on Hadith;

7:185
Do they not look into the realm of the heavens and the earth and everything that Allah has created and that perhaps their appointed time has come near? So in what statement/Hadith hereafter will they believe?

The Universe is a Hadith.

Al Gore make misleadings Hadith about Global Warming.

Hadith means statements.


31:6
And of the people is he who buys the amusement of speech/Hadith to mislead from the way of Allah without knowledge and who takes it in ridicule. Those will have a humiliating punishment.

2:26
Indeed, Allah is not timid to present an example - that of a mosquito or what is smaller than it. And those who have believed know that it is the truth from their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, they say, "What did Allah intend by this as an example?" He misleads many thereby and guides many thereby. And He misleads not except the defiantly disobedient.


Quran-Alone Muslim is incorrect based on Quran 7:185, but Ottoman Empire is killed by misleading hadiths.

misleading hadiths has been tried for 88years, it doesn't work for good. It works very effectively for evil.

there's is True Hadith & Misleading Hadith. For example Quran is a True Hadith. Rejecting all Hadith including Quran?

Quran-alone Muslim is wrong, Allah-Alone Muslim is Correct.

More discussion on "Quran-alone Muslim is wrong" here;
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603183.msg288193#msg288193

[Student of Allah]

Salams,

I hope you are all well.
I am very new to Islam (started praying salat 2010, 1st read Quran Ramadan 2011) and my introduction came through Shia friends of mine.
I am both attracted and repelled by Quran only Islam. Attracted because im aware of the propensity for people to corrupt and manipulate according to their own weaknesses and desires, and this leads to me to worries about putting too much store in ahadith and being misled (i dont know too much about ahadith science as yet, but from what ive read it leads me to favour a healthy skeptisim, whilst trying not to throw the baby out with the bath water, as its unlikely that its all baloney as well. So i tend to only consider ahadith that is considered most authentic or mutawatir). Repelled because im aware of the propensity for people to corrupt and manipulate according to their own weaknesses and desires, and this leads to me to worries about people interpreting Quran to fit their own personal morality, rather than what is likely and proveable.
As im so green and very early in my Arabic learning i have to rely heavily on other people for translation and understanding, and its alarming at how wildly it can differ and how plausable opposing arguments can sound.

Anyway, i'm hoping hanging around here can help me to get to something like a comfortable resolution and hope to make some friends along the way =)

Shalom,

You need not worry. After all, its all about living a righteous life . I dont believe that God would suffer a lose or gain from your acceptance or rejection. The reason you are given specific commands is for you. So, do your best to understand your system/way/religion better. Personally, I dont follow anything that contradicts the Qur'an. In other words, if God comes down and says its ok to do something when scholars/hadiths say otherwise, I will chose God as my savior. So any hadith you bring me, if it contradicts, it is evil in my eyes. Let me tell you something really awsome, for most part of my life as God alone muslim, I have been reading off traditionalist translations. Yes, my friend, God guides WHOEVER HE WILLS. As you mature in the field, you will notice how much knowledge you will have as you keep on Reading in the name of your Lord.

PEACE
---------------------- Student of Allah

[Student of Allah]

my stance on Hadith;

7:185
Do they not look into the realm of the heavens and the earth and everything that Allah has created and that perhaps their appointed time has come near? So in what statement/Hadith hereafter will they believe?

The Universe is a Hadith.

Al Gore make misleadings Hadith about Global Warming.

Hadith means statements.


31:6
And of the people is he who buys the amusement of speech/Hadith to mislead from the way of Allah without knowledge and who takes it in ridicule. Those will have a humiliating punishment.

2:26
Indeed, Allah is not timid to present an example - that of a mosquito or what is smaller than it. And those who have believed know that it is the truth from their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, they say, "What did Allah intend by this as an example?" He misleads many thereby and guides many thereby. And He misleads not except the defiantly disobedient.


Quran-Alone Muslim is incorrect based on Quran 7:185, but Ottoman Empire is killed by misleading hadiths.

misleading hadiths has been tried for 88years, it doesn't work for good. It works very effectively for evil.

there's is True Hadith & Misleading Hadith. For example Quran is a True Hadith. Rejecting all Hadith including Quran?

Quran-alone Muslim is wrong, Allah-Alone Muslim is Correct.

More discussion on "Quran-alone Muslim is wrong" here;
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603183.msg288193#msg288193

hahahhahahhahah..........LMAO........ you made my day.

God bless you

PEACE
-------------------------- Student of Allah

[Ozi Kristi-lee]

Salam,
I also converted to Islam in 2010!! I was very strict and into Hadith for about 3-4 months until I saw that they were nothing comparable to the Quran, with ridiculous stories, rules Allah never mentioned and contradictions with the Quran etc. Welcome

[chickpea]

Shalom,

You need not worry. After all, its all about living a righteous life . I dont believe that God would suffer a lose or gain from your acceptance or rejection. The reason you are given specific commands is for you. So, do your best to understand your system/way/religion better. Personally, I dont follow anything that contradicts the Qur'an. In other words, if God comes down and says its ok to do something when scholars/hadiths say otherwise, I will chose God as my savior. So any hadith you bring me, if it contradicts, it is evil in my eyes. Let me tell you something really awsome, for most part of my life as God alone muslim, I have been reading off traditionalist translations. Yes, my friend, God guides WHOEVER HE WILLS. As you mature in the field, you will notice how much knowledge you will have as you keep on Reading in the name of your Lord.

PEACE
---------------------- Student of Allah

Ws =) and thank you. In Shia Islam you cannot follow ahadith that contradicts Quran. There is of course a bias towards interpretation of certain verses in Shia tradition, but there are many Shia who are open minded about this and do not rely on Taqleed for all thier ahadith info and Quran interpretation. Many Shia's study ahadith for them selves and use the practices of hadith science to judge a hadith. You are encouraged to educate and study for yourself. There are also many beautiful and inspiring ahadith about the Ahlulbayt(as) as examples of the living Quran which have enhanced my experience of coming to Islam.

[chickpea]

Salam,
I also converted to Islam in 2010!! I was very strict and into Hadith for about 3-4 months until I saw that they were nothing comparable to the Quran, with ridiculous stories, rules Allah never mentioned and contradictions with the Quran etc. Welcome

Ws, mashAllah =)

Yes, Quran is always the primary source, hadith can be a minefield and there is, without doubt, much corruption to be identified. There is no Shia ahadith book that claims to be authentic in entirety, Shi'ites are generally very open about that, the process of ahadith verification is on going in the Shia community and you will find disagreements. It makes sense to me that the person best served to understand Quran and to exemplify its message was the Prophet(saw) and the people closest to him after that (Ali(as) and Fatima(as)) and their decendants. So their example is what Shia's strive to verify and take indpiration from as living examples of best conduct.

[rraza]

It may be that Ali and Fatima and Hassan and Hussain know the most after the prophet. But even in that case, good for them...it doesnt really affect us in the present day. They lived a good pious life and pleased God. Good on them.They passed the test with flying colours. It is our turn now. And its hard to tell fact from fiction after so many years...and its hard to follow in a persons footsteps when you dont even know them except from a few historic sources which may or may not be correct.

Im shia inclined too in the sense that my family is all shia and have a huge amount of respect for the prophet and his family. But apart from that, this preference doesnt make a difference in my spirituality or connection with God.

Peace.

[chickpea]

It may be that Ali and Fatima and Hassan and Hussain know the most after the prophet. But even in that case, good for them...it doesnt really affect us in the present day. They lived a good pious life and pleased God. Good on them.They passed the test with flying colours. It is our turn now. And its hard to tell fact from fiction after so many years...and its hard to follow in a persons footsteps when you dont even know them except from a few historic sources which may or may not be correct.

Im shia inclined too in the sense that my family is all shia and have a huge amount of respect for the prophet and his family. But apart from that, this preference doesnt make a difference in my spirituality or connection with God.

Peace.

I can understand that, i believe that there is no 1 religion, in the sense that, even if a person identifies with a certain 'path', in reality we all process and manifest that experience differently and our spiritual experience is unique to us. God knows how honest we're being in our intentions to find truth and whether we are looking to fit ourselves into truth or looking to fit truth into ourselves. There are things in Islam i struggle with, regardless of sect affiliation and its a struggle to ascertain how much i resist because of cultural bias informing my morality. This is the greatest danger with Quranists i think, its hugely appealing perhaps more because of our weaknesses (ego, distress at what might be very uncomfortable truths to a modern, though not necessarily correct, but easy morality), though i dont doubt that many Quranists have a genuin desire to ascertain God's law, irrespective of how difficult the reality of that law may be to come to terms with in a 21st century time and place culture. If we're not struggling we're probably not on the right path, i dont think its meant to be easy.

[Student of Allah]

Ws =) and thank you. In Shia Islam you cannot follow ahadith that contradicts Quran. There is of course a bias towards interpretation of certain verses in Shia tradition, but there are many Shia who are open minded about this and do not rely on Taqleed for all thier ahadith info and Quran interpretation. Many Shia's study ahadith for them selves and use the practices of hadith science to judge a hadith. You are encouraged to educate and study for yourself. There are also many beautiful and inspiring ahadith about the Ahlulbayt(as) as examples of the living Quran which have enhanced my experience of coming to Islam.

Shalom,

The shia people will obviously not subscribe to sunni documents. If you really want to see their "openness" to truth, simply ask them to show you where in the Qur'an did they get the briefing of the righteousness of Ali or Muhammad's family. The shias and sunnis decided to idolize via 2 different systems. So it is not a surprise that when you go to them with questions designed for sunnis, they will tend to look so much open for correction. I do not know the prophet and his family members personally, so one should not interpret what I say as attack on them. I am only attacking, if at all, their idolization.

PEACE
------------------- Student of Allah

[rraza]

If we're not struggling we're probably not on the right path, i dont think its meant to be easy.

Salam

Thankyou for your reply. You said you believe there is no one religion..just different paths to God? I think so too. However, if you believe in that then how come you believe in the quranic path to be true? PLease correct me if I am assuming stuff about you.

and i dont necessarily think Gods path is one full of struggle...on the contrary I think its the path that brings us most peace and tranquility and strength, so we stay focused on doing good in this life instead of looking into things like ..which hand does God want us to use while eating food..or what sort of goat does God want us to sacrifice after pilgrimage. But then again, Im only searching..that is merely how I think at this point in time. May God guide all of us to the Truth.

[Sirius]

Every hadith is probably not all baloney but I'd argue that it's besides the point. I guess the question is, what is their purpose? Or do they have a place in Islam? Or are they relevant? Even if every hadith was hypothetically verifiable these questions will still stand. Authenticity is an issue of course but it's not the only one in my opinion.

Looking forward to seeing more of your thoughts around the forum

[Producer]

President Ahmadenijad versus Ayatollah Ali Khamenei

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei brain damage by Misleding Hadith accusing President Ahmadenijad of Witchcraft.

I don't know if Ahmadenijad is doing witchcraft, or experiment with nuclear power or high-energy physics weapon. (high-energy physics is "witchcraft" to brain damage 'Shia).

Ahmadinejad, may worship Ali, that is wrong.

But also see what he does right - Guarding his God Give Life(quran 4:29);
1. Build a Nuclear Power Plant.
2. Support High-Technology Industries
3. Defense of Local Economy, Sustainability, Independence.

Sure people can look at his bad side on Speech and Economic Freedom.

Its hard to do Anarcho-Capitalist when Parasites simply rips and loots everything with their muscle Nato and IMF.


Many Mullahs thinks Technologies are Witchcraft(conjure from misleading hadiths). Without technology, that goes against guarding god give life.

[Indelwyn]

 
Sorry I missed this when I was away. 

WELCOME!!

[Aryan Warrior]

This is pretty late but I wanna reply as a shia inclined Quranist myself.

Basically first off welcome and how I see things as a shia inclined Quranist is that:

-Considering the religion was new and considering the fact that God had promised to keep this book and religion perfect, it would only make sense for God to send people who would keep according to the Quran.
-During that era you had the Caliphs coming in such as Abu Bakr and Omar and especially Yazid who wanted to change rules that were allowed or disallowed in the Quran. Thus the belief is that you have the imams who opposed change.
-the imams i've realized reference the Quran and not hadiths like what Omar tried to do at times (probably a bunch being fabricated) thus they were great Quranists themselves.
-While there are hadiths from both Muhammad and the imams in traditional Shia Islam, the only hadiths I might look for are ones that back up some claims in the Quran and reject all those that contradict or add new rules to the Quran.

Thus Shia Inclined Quranism

[Aryan Warrior]

but one other thing i'd like to add is that Shiaism by itself is quite Quranist as it takes the Quran in hand first and hadiths in second, thus hadiths that contradict the Quran are not accepted unlike the Sunnis who say otherwise. Thus why you see Shias pray 3 times a day as the Quran states unlike Sunnis who go 5 times for example.

Though the only problem with shiaism that keeps it from actually being pure Quranist is that it accepts far too many traditions not mentioned in the book as law, thus they like to ban music or chess sometimes :/ though as mentioned earlier in the topic, not all of them are unified in such views and many reject a lot of those anyways such as the one about music and chess (thus why both are legal and allowed in Iran)

Thus Shias in general are our closest brothers to  Quranists in the end

[SarahY]

Shias and sunnis alike both claim they take Quran first then Hadith. Whilst books and records mention that they are not 100% authentic actions respond differently. Hadith sources are not as largely expelled in shiasm compared to sunnism. there exists a whole fiqh of their school of thought. with more reading you'd notice similarities between shias and sunnis.

Every shia is required to follow a marja which has their specific rulings to be followed. Who were you thinking of taking as your marja?

although shiasm seems more intriguing it's not free from the errors. if you can stomach and believe the infallibility of the imams well i guess you're a step closer to shiasm

[Aryan Warrior]

Shias and sunnis alike both claim they take Quran first then Hadith. Whilst books and records mention that they are not 100% authentic actions respond differently. Hadith sources are not as largely expelled in shiasm compared to sunnism. there exists a whole fiqh of their school of thought. with more reading you'd notice similarities between shias and sunnis.

Every shia is required to follow a marja which has their specific rulings to be followed. Who were you thinking of taking as your marja?

although shiasm seems more intriguing it's not free from the errors. if you can stomach and believe the infallibility of the imams well i guess you're a step closer to shiasm

Well as I said, i'm SHIA inclined, so there is quite a bit of difference.

For one I don't follow a marja, but I do look at some opinions from various to see the thoughts on some thing and see if traditions are mixed in or not.

I also don't take the Imams are "infalliable" as they are human though I guess I can take them as "infalliable as a human gets" meaning they knew Gods laws better than most, which has proven considering how what they ruled made a more sense than any of the Caliphates like Omar or Yazid.

Regardless there is quite a lot of difference between Shia and Sunnis really as i've studied both and as a result really HATE sunnism for that as they abrogate the Quran  which means Hadith>Quran for the Sunnis.

As well unlike a traditional Shia I don't accept "new rules" from traditions that were never mentioned in the Quran like the hijab or beards or any of that stuff.

[Ervin]

Peace. Welcome brother. Your own deep understanding of the Quran is as close as you personally can come to. Others can only make sugestions. General guideline is that God is good. Now if someone says to you to do something that is bad or that it is shown to have bad results it  can't be from God.
The following verse from the Quran explains it:

Chapter 7 7:28 And if they commit lewdness, they say: "We found our fathers doing such, and God ordered us to it." Say: "God does not order immorality! Do you say about God what you do not know?

Thanks

[SarahY]

true, there's a difference.

lots of rules are based on opinion that's the beauty of scholarship

infallible as a human gets.. well that's an interesting concept but prob not the right wording

not many people praise Yazid nor did all Imams "rule" in the same sense of power as caliphate.. also lots of corruption took place so that messes things up.

Many Sunni's are against abrogation of the Quran. There are people that did abrogate Quran with hadith however there are many hard line against it. so i wouldnt say it's sunnism. but rather a branch of people/scholars therein.

there is alot of similarities and differences with shia/sunni

interesting views.

Welcome to the forum

peace

[Aryan Warrior]

true, there's a difference.

lots of rules are based on opinion that's the beauty of scholarship

infallible as a human gets.. well that's an interesting concept but prob not the right wording

not many people praise Yazid nor did all Imams "rule" in the same sense of power as caliphate.. also lots of corruption took place so that messes things up.

Many Sunni's are against abrogation of the Quran. There are people that did abrogate Quran with hadith however there are many hard line against it. so i wouldnt say it's sunnism. but rather a branch of people/scholars therein.

there is alot of similarities and differences with shia/sunni

interesting views.

Welcome to the forum

peace

Yeah like I don't see how an imam or a prophet can be without sin as they are human and humans are made to sin at least once, thus why they can't be completely infallible but probably as infallible as humans get means that they sin less then others. Though I bet a lot of Shias think of them as without sin :/

There are indeed sunnis who are against abrogation, as I remember there being one in Tunisia for example who was against what Omar abrogate and some hadith that supported his claim. But most I have realized most do abrogate, such as abrogate good things like art which is clearly allowed as Solomon was described as an artist and yet a prophet who followed well in the work of God. Shias on the other hand allow these things as the Quran has clearly given an example of it being used.

As a shia-inclined, the Sunni mind set does disturb me a lot as they are so freakin strict on everything O_O

Regardless this is why i'm a shia

[SarahY]

well of course not, shias view the imams/ prophets as infallible i.e. perfect.

many sunnis are against abrogation. maybe you're an unfortunate person who live in an area where most do abrogate.

lots of muslims have artwork. in fact most mosques have beautiful intricate art. Shias have artwork but in noway would they paint the faces of the imams or prophets. nor would either shia or sunni pray in a direction of an art (particularly one with life i.e. an animal) as it would be perceived as a form of idol worship.

every scholar, scholarly opinion or marja3 will have their interpretations. i guess this is how bid3a evolves. while people say they dont do things they justify others in the name of religion. 

shias could be perceived as strict too.

just out of curiousity, what sources do you use to gain shia knowledge? and how do you gauge authenticity? or you don't do that?

[JLM]

As'salamu alaikum and welcome.

I'm an ex-shia myself, but we won't focus on that too much here. I just want to say that one should be weary of ahadith since it is all based upon oral accounts. As you probably know, oral accounts are not accepted as evidence in a court of law as it's weak and tends to be distorted. With that in mind why should oral accounts in ahadith be considered any different? It's just a little something to think about before venturing into this site.

Congrats on the conversion by the way.

[khan25]

first of all different shia sects  such as zaidia ,nizaria, mustaalids and imamites(12ers)  are all commercial sects rather than religious . 
secondly. shia (12er) hadiths were written long after the death of  prophet MUhammad and imam jaffar . and there is no hadith book written by any of the shia imams  themselves.and one get surprised when one knows that 2/3 of the shiites ' books are written just 3 or 400 years ago in safavid era in iran lolz.

[SarahY]

interesting what do you know about the safavid era, didn't they just promote shiaism? and revive islamic (shia) philosophy?

or you think they just reinvented the wheel?

[Aryan Warrior]

first of all different shia sects  such as zaidia ,nizaria, mustaalids and imamites(12ers)  are all commercial sects rather than religious . 
secondly. shia (12er) hadiths were written long after the death of  prophet MUhammad and imam jaffar . and there is no hadith book written by any of the shia imams  themselves.and one get surprised when one knows that 2/3 of the shiites ' books are written just 3 or 400 years ago in safavid era in iran lolz.

Haven't heard this one about them being written during the Safavid era. Al Kafi which is the Shia Bukhari was written about 300 years after the Prophets death and also contains hadiths of the Imams. Though the major difference is that Al Kafi when first collected was called by its collector as unreliable and that one should look at it and throw away whatever contradicts the Quran.

interesting what do you know about the safavid era, didn't they just promote shiaism? and revive islamic (shia) philosophy?

or you think they just reinvented the wheel?

Personally I as Persian clearly like the Safavid era for Persia came back but as for Shiaism, that is something i'm glad grew as well in opposition to Sunnism. While Shiaism is also traditionally runned, it at least isn't as fundamental as Sunnism O_O The difference in opinions we have now I think we can someone contribute to shiaisms opposition to the regular sunni standards then.

[youssef4342]

peace be upon you as well.

About shia's, a few days ago i was blessed with having a talk with a Shia Muslim Lady.
[Glory belongs to God Almighty, the Most Great! because just the day before that i was reading about some Shia ?Theology?, and here she was a living example that seemingly popped out of ?nowhere? in the middle of a wal-mart store!]

I don?t think she heard of following the Quran alone. To say, i kind of like her because
1) she kind of encouraged me to follow the Quran and use my mind/reasoning
2) she kind of was sympathetic with the 3 salat a day ?theory?, since shia muslims do accept the tradition that the Prophet combined his 5 salats and thus only did salat at only 3 times per day. [I currently do, to say, a ?liberal? version of salat, 3 times daily. I don?t observe rak?a counts however]
3) she was much liberal and kind.

I?ve had talks with sunnis before, but now, i think shia?s might just be a better audience.
Shia forums anyone?

[Aryan Warrior]

peace be upon you as well.

About shia's, a few days ago i was blessed with having a talk with a Shia Muslim Lady.
[Glory belongs to God Almighty, the Most Great! because just the day before that i was reading about some Shia ?Theology?, and here she was a living example that seemingly popped out of ?nowhere? in the middle of a wal-mart store!]

I don?t think she heard of following the Quran alone. To say, i kind of like her because
1) she kind of encouraged me to follow the Quran and use my mind/reasoning
2) she kind of was sympathetic with the 3 salat a day ?theory?, since shia muslims do accept the tradition that the Prophet combined his 5 salats and thus only did salat at only 3 times per day. [I currently do, to say, a ?liberal? version of salat, 3 times daily. I don?t observe rak?a counts however]
3) she was much liberal and kind.

I?ve had talks with sunnis before, but now, i think shia?s might just be a better audience.
Shia forums anyone?

Ah nice. Shiachat is a forum where Shias mainly are on. Yeah shias do pray 3 times as we normally agree on. Even thoigh they say that there are 5, they always combine it to 3 and even at mosques when they do it together. But one thing i've learned from shias is that the hadith is not as withstanding as it is with the sunnis in that if you reject a hadith, they won't call you a kaffir did you tell her of your
Quran only beliefs?

[youssef4342]

Yes i told her, but i don't think she herd about it before.
There might be a need to spread the message around!

[Aryan Warrior]

Yes i told her, but i don't think she herd about it before.
There might be a need to spread the message around!

Very true. The message does need to spread. Its just how the Protestant religion started against the Catholic beliefs, in this case its us vs the sunnis. This type of protest was what led Europe to the modern ages of freedom, let's hope this can spread similarly and be what brings the middle east to the same era

[youssef4342]

An idea would be to just come up to muslims (women night be easier to notice because of their coverings), and just ask a kind of "interview question"

are you sunni or shia?
have you ever herd of following the Quran alone?
you should research about it.

[Aryan Warrior]

An idea would be to just come up to muslims (women night be easier to notice because of their coverings), and just ask a kind of "interview question"

are you sunni or shia?
have you ever herd of following the Quran alone?
you should research about it.

Women... hmm what I fear for them is that if they start rebelling against their possibily strict husbands that it can make things tough.

Also I have had this idea for a bit that the place that it can spring with success would be Iran or Turkey considering the people have a pretty secular mind as is and Quran alone fits the secular ideology quite well.