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How did so much change by the time of Imam Malik?

Started by ayyub, November 01, 2011, 05:41:33 PM

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ayyub

First I want to preface this by saying I am not trying to sell an opinion, just looking for answers.

Imam Malik was born in Madina in 93 AH. He is the earliest of the major hadith collectors. A lot of things argued as inovations by the non-hadith followers can be found in his collection Al-Muwatta, which is said to have been approved by the elders of Madina (Prayer times, how to pray, how to pay zakat, etc.)

My question is how was there so much inovation in the city founded by the Prophet (pbuh) in such a short period of time? Wouldn't there be (is there) record of people saying "no this is bidah."?

Again, not trying to make a point, just something I was thinking about and wanted to hear some views.
"Do not read to contradict and refute, nor to believe and take it for granted, but to weigh and consider." - Francis Bacon

Producer

my stance on hadith

7:185
Do they not look into the realm of the heavens and the earth and everything that Allah has created and that perhaps their appointed time has come near? So in what Hadith hereafter will they believe?

31:6
And of the people is he who buys the amusement of speech/hadith to mislead from the way of Allah without knowledge and who takes it in ridicule. Those will have a humiliating punishment.


2:26
Indeed, Allah is not timid to present an example - that of a mosquito or what is smaller than it. And those who have believed know that it is the truth from their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, they say, "What did Allah intend by this as an example?" He misleads many thereby and guides many thereby. And He misleads not except the defiantly disobedient.


to elaborate my statement, I use Microsoft's "Hadiths" to help me with Windows XP.

Magnus

Peace.

regard the following as purely speculative:

Kaliph Umar's active campaign against codifying the hadith could have something to do with it.
Imagine that hadith telling was an underground activity, something people wanted to indulge in but had to do so in secret. A clumsy analogy could be today's international illegal and clandestine markets. Since what they do is illegal, they do everything out of sight. The process is opaque, which is my point. If hadith-writing was against the law for a time, the content of the hadith told could have changed dramatically without the change being obvious - even more so if not only writing but also telling/transmitting hadith was actively discouraged.
It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.

Student of Allah

Quote from: ayyub on November 01, 2011, 05:41:33 PM
First I want to preface this by saying I am not trying to sell an opinion, just looking for answers.

Imam Malik was born in Madina in 93 AH. He is the earliest of the major hadith collectors. A lot of things argued as inovations by the non-hadith followers can be found in his collection Al-Muwatta, which is said to have been approved by the elders of Madina (Prayer times, how to pray, how to pay zakat, etc.)

My question is how was there so much inovation in the city founded by the Prophet (pbuh) in such a short period of time? Wouldn't there be (is there) record of people saying "no this is bidah."?

Again, not trying to make a point, just something I was thinking about and wanted to hear some views.

Shalom,

Very good question. I myself was wondering about this the other day. However, let us see somethings from the Qur'an to see how much time it takes for people to mislead others with their innovatons:

Division were already there when the messenger was around:

6:159    Those who have divided their system and become sects, you are not with them in anything. Their matter will be with God, then He will inform them of what they had done
30:32    From those who have divided their system and become sects, each group is happy with what it has.

Hypocrisy of the people around the messenger :

3:167 And to let those who are hypocrites know, that they were told: "Come fight in the cause of God or defend," they said: "If we knew how to fight we would have followed you." They are closer to rejection than they are to belief. They say with their mouths what is not in their hearts, and God is aware of what they conceal.
4:88 What is the matter with you that you are divided into two groups over the hypocrites, while God has regressed them for what they have earned? Do you want to guide those whom God misguides? Whoever God causes to be misguided, you will never find for him a path.
4:142 The hypocrites seek to deceive God, while He is deceiving them; and if they stand to make the contact prayer, they do so lazily, only to show the people; they do not remember God except very little.
9:101 And from among the *al-arabu" around you are hypocrites, and from among the people of the city, they persist in hypocrisy. You do not know them, but We know them. We will punish them twice, then they will be returned to a great punishment.


My understanding:

I was around sunnis/shias all my life. Everything I knew about the messenger and Islam was not necessarily true. The image these people painted on my head was that everything was 100% ok when the messenger was in town. All the people around him are 100% trust worthy. THUS, it became hard for me to comprehend how Islam can be distorted after like 1 century only. However, now that I read the Qur'an, the truth seems to be far from it. The Qur'an never gave a happy ending to Muhammad where everyone that was around him became the best people in the world. Infact, from the verses I quoted above, it is clear that people already broke up and divided into sects when messenger was around. There were hypocrites whom even the messenger didnt know , only God knew that in their hearts they were hypocrites. Now that I am equipped with this knowledge, it is no more a surprise for me. It was only a surprise when I ignorant/blindly believed the mullahs/sheikhs/scholars who said that in the days of the messenger things were 100% pure around him. The rest depends on "who" is in political power. If people can divide and makes sects and be such hypocrites and deceive messenger when he is present, just imagine 100 years later.

PEACE
----------------------------- Student of Allah
[url=http://studentofallah.blogspot.com/]"Student of Allah"'s blog[/url]

Paradox Uncreated

It`s not neccesarily that "so much changed". It`s just one man, who made a claim. Imagine that Muhammad and other prophets were just one man too, but they changed all of society. Now if just one man makes a claim that seems to go with these teachings, and it gets popular, that again changes things. Unfortunately with the hadith, in a negative way.

Looking from my experience with music, and getting known, idolaters seem likely to try and change peoples perception of you, into a satan, as soon as they gain knowledge of you. When other people say "he is a good artist", they would add satanic statements "and probably a big <insert devil-properties here>". They read into the artist all the know from idols, he has money, power, all the women he can want, etc. Soon they are seeing satan. In an online archive where I was popular, a song I did not make, was added "give your soul to satan". It further strenghtened their idea of me, being a satan. When I went online on IRC, and went to the place where these people were, they expected a satan, not a kind man. So when I was a kind man, I became unpopular, and this image they created of me, seemed to live on, on it`s own.

I am ofcourse saying this because, Mohammed has been treated in a similar way in hadith. They turned him into a satan. Prayers were exaggarated, and repetitions included, until it resembled a obsessive-compulsive ritual, rather than honest dialogue with God. Mohammed was turned into a man who made nonsensical remarks, and Islam was turned into a religion were simple things could be done, and one gained paradise, regardless of morality. Even papers on how to piss and shit, were included, and called religion.

Now, I started with music when I was around 13. Or even earlier really, but I made my first track then. (on amiga soundtracker).
So I discovered this about myself around about 1999, when I started using IRC, and got internet at home. I was 23. So in ten years, one could see a certain development. Now I made myself quite clear on the internet that I wasn`t this person, and also I became interested in the study of religion, and made a www-page detailing the concentrate of my belief. So that may have succeeded in killing that original satanic development, of how I was percieved in certain online environments. Because today they seem aware that I am a religious person. Some of them have therefore started to call me crazy, and know I am against homophilia also, so they gay try to slander me, and often try to portray me as evil. I feel no sorrow for this though, I am confident in my faith. I have a LOT of joy, because of my faith :) BUT if Mohammed lived today, and could simply put up a webpage, I think that hadith-culture would have been killed, and people would see him for what he is.

Mohammed is a man of high morality. Of excellent character and of high intelligence. I think he knew mysteries that most do not, and posessed an unusually high rank in the angelic realm. There is no scripture like this, and has never been. Instead in the Quran, Mohammed is presented as someone who tries to follow God. And even that is shrouded in mystery. I think the mind of Mohammed, is a mystery to most. Unpercievable.

Unfortunately because he is a mystery, people can attribute sayings to him, and turn him into a satanic image they know. I mean after all, satan seems common in the world. Angelic nature seems unknown. Indeed, they have no idea.

Does a man, who KNOWS God, and therefore FEARS God, behave and say the stupid things in hadith. Again, ofcourse not.

There is a certain logic, in The Quran. The idolaters, have no ears or eyes. Sometimes even Mohammed is told by God "have you no sense".

Intelligence seems neccesary. And satan follows his desire.

A man of Mohammeds rank, cannot be the shaitan in hadith. He must be intelligent, and the Quran says, that he is to "follow such a Quran".

Hadithists often quote the verse of Mohammed being a good example. But then they should follow The Quran, like Mohammed did.

Quran doesn`t state, and then you shall follow Quran, and your own sunna. That would be nonsense. No, Mohammed was to follow The Quran.

And ofcourse, he followed The Quran, and embraced the morality of it. And thus shaitan-mohammed in hadith, can be ruled out.

No mindlessness attributed to Mohammed in hadith, can be true. And to gain the position as messenger of God, he must have had a very high rank to begin with also. Probably very intelligent, thinking, and monotheistic.

But the idolater doesn`t see this.

Indeed the atheist Kader Adbolah says on translating The Quran, and writing about Mohammed from hadith, "I found myself".  (0:45)

Now he can mean a lot with this, but he also repeats the same lie, that one cannot understand the Quran if one does not understand hadith-Mohammed. And he is an atheist. Ofcourse an atheist cannot understand the Quran. But the hadiths, he is presented as a shaitan like himself. THEN he "understands".  :rotfl:

That is probably why the quran is so overlooked by sunnis also. The same mechanism are there. They have this satanic mohammed in hadith, which forms their view on the Quran. Now we had a couple of hadithists in here. And satan follows his desire (quran). They seem to descend into sexual thinking, almost the minute they got here. They understand the satanic mohammed in hadith, and not the Quran.

Mohammed and similar gnostics, would not be popular among them. Just like I was rejected among those who worshipped an image of me, instead of liking the religious values I stood for, have done the same thing with Mohammed.

And I am a gnostic too, and have done a lot of thinking on religion. And that gets me banned in the local sunni forum..

Indeed, the jews "banned" Jesus, and wanted him crucified. And the christians would probably ban Jesus, as he rejects the trinity. And Mohammed would probably be banned, because he rejects "sunna". (He was ordained by God, to follow The Quran).

.. Peace!
Paradox Void is the infinitely superior.

Paradox Void is an attribute of God, or any other entity it should point to, which is the same entity.
Designer of all dimensions. Former of forms, shaper of shapes. According to truth.
Peace.

ayyub

This is interesting. I found this on Wikipedia and gives a context to the condition of the time. Appears the Muwatta was called for as a reaction to there being so many different opinions:

"Due to increase in juristic differences, the Caliph of the time, Abū Ja?far Mansūr, requested Imam Malik to produce a standard book that could be promulgated as law in the country. The Imam refused this in 148 AH, but when the Caliph again came to the Hijaz in 163 AH, he was more forceful and said:

?O Abū ?Abd Allāh, take up the reign of the discipline of fiqh in your hands. Compile your understanding of every issue in different chapters for a systematic book free from the extremism of ?Abd Allāh b. ?Umar, concessions and accommodations of ?Abd Allāh b. ?Abbās and unique views of ?Abd Allāh b. Mas?ūd. Your work should exemplify the following principle of the Prophet: ?The best issues are those which are balanced.? It should be a compendium of the agreed upon views of the Companions and the elder imāms on the religious and legal issues. Once you have compiled such a work then we would be able to unite the Muslims in following the single fiqh worked by you. We would then promulgate it in the entire Muslim state. We would order that no body acts contrary to it.? [4]

Historical reports attest that another ?Abbāsī caliph Hārūn al-Rashīd too expressed similar wishes before Imām Mālik who remained unmoved. He, however, compiled Muwattā, keeping before himself the target of removing the juristic differences between the scholars.

It is reported that Imam Malik selected only about 1% of authentic Ahadith for inclusion into the Muwatta, from the corpus of 100,000 narrations available to him. Thus, the book has been compiled with great diligence and meticulousness."
"Do not read to contradict and refute, nor to believe and take it for granted, but to weigh and consider." - Francis Bacon

Bigmo

Quote from: ayyub on November 01, 2011, 05:41:33 PM
First I want to preface this by saying I am not trying to sell an opinion, just looking for answers.

Imam Malik was born in Madina in 93 AH. He is the earliest of the major hadith collectors. A lot of things argued as inovations by the non-hadith followers can be found in his collection Al-Muwatta, which is said to have been approved by the elders of Madina (Prayer times, how to pray, how to pay zakat, etc.)

My question is how was there so much inovation in the city founded by the Prophet (pbuh) in such a short period of time? Wouldn't there be (is there) record of people saying "no this is bidah."?

Again, not trying to make a point, just something I was thinking about and wanted to hear some views.

I think this subject is somewhat beyond the scope of this forum. However there has been many studies regarding the historicity of hadith. I use to spend a lot of time in this topic but I don't anymore.

There are many books written by Joseph Schacht, Juynboll and Herbert berg.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/schacht.asp

http://www.scribd.com/doc/37518378/Herbert-Berg-Summary-of-Hadith-Criticism

This is a good place to start. You have to do a lot of reading though. Schacht tends to be my favorite. There is also a goodcounter work done by Azzami against Scahcht.

I have some PDF files but i am not able to link it here for some reason. I can't find the attachment function.

88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe