Author Topic: The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd  (Read 5648 times)

KDC501

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The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd
« on: August 25, 2011, 10:33:48 AM »
For couple of weeks now I wasn't 100% convinced in  timing of the Night of Decree. Even though I said on a previous post a few weeks ago that the Night of Decree most likely had to be during the longest nights of the year(December 21st or 22nd   of each year)There wasn't really any hard evidence besides the simple calculation of Jesus? Conception in the Quran as proof . This calculation still did not answer one or two questions. For example people could still rightly argue that  the appearance of Angel Gabriel to Mary around the month of December doesn't prove unanimously that December 21st (or 22nd )is the said Night the Decree( the proper time of fasting) . However now the believers ( and those who astute in the Scripture ) have another piece of evidence?..


Last night while I was sitting down watching television  a strange idea occurred to me. If  I believe that December 21st (or 22nd ) was the time in which the Messengers received Messages from the Spirit( whom I believe to be Gabriel) and the Angels then perhaps Dr.Rashad Khalifa received his messengership around that specific time.  Note that for the several weeks that I had believed in this interpretation (that the Night of Decree had to be during the longest night) it had never occurred to me to look and check to see exactly when the previous messenger received messengership.

To my utter surprise it turns out that Dr.Rashad Khalifa did indeed receive messengership on December 21st 1971?..The longest night during the year(in the northern hemisphere)

Could this be a coincidence?


A question only for the code 19 believers: Am I the first to recognize this or did anyone else notice this strange coincidence???

Well after this knowledge was made know to me I was at rest. I'm now 100% certain  that the timing of the fast (and the Night of Decree) has be without a doubt  during longest nights of the year (December 21st or 22nd of each year)



Peace,

Kevin








Eikonoklastes

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Re: The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2011, 01:21:49 PM »
Peace KDC501,

So prior to Rashad Khalifa's claim, how do you believe Muslims would have known the Night of Decree was at this time? The only piece of "evidence" would be Jesus' alleged time of conception, in which there is no indication that the Spirit/Angels were there at the time, and in which the time can vary within 1-2 months (at the least) which is not sound evidence for the Winter Solstice being the Night of Decree.

Also, care to provide a valid source for this date being the time of his claim?

May peace be with you.
Now, we must all fear evil people. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good people.

Eikonoklastes

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Re: The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2011, 01:30:18 PM »
Peace,

Just another thought. I don't see why people are so stuck on believing that the Night of Decree has to be the longest night of the year. What would be the purpose of this? All traditionalist thinking aside, there is no reason for all of this time. Are the Spirit/Angels bound by our time that they need(ed) the longest time? Do we need to do anything more than reflect on this night, and would it matter if we did it for some 8-10 hours as opposed to 1, etc.? It makes no sense in light of Quran-alone thinking.

Also, if it was so easy as thinking it must be the longest night, why wasn't this ideology adopted long ago by a big group of traditionalists?

May Allah guide us all.
Now, we must all fear evil people. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good people.

Layth

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Re: The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2011, 01:44:34 PM »
Salam Eikon,

The conclusion that it is the longest night of the year has to do with the characteristic of God that He taught us, which is His "mercy". If God were to select a night in which to bless mankind with peace and guidance, then it goes without saying that He would chose the "longer" rather than the "shorter". And, since the birth of Jesus as you said places us back to the period of Nov-Dec-Jan, then the choice falls to the one in which God's mercy would be greatest? Answer, the one with the longest night.   
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

KDC501

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Re: The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2011, 03:29:39 PM »
Peace KDC501,

So prior to Rashad Khalifa's claim, how do you believe Muslims would have known the Night of Decree was at this time? The only piece of "evidence" would be Jesus' alleged time of conception, in which there is no indication that the Spirit/Angels were there at the time, and in which the time can vary within 1-2 months (at the least) which is not sound evidence for the Winter Solstice being the Night of Decree.

Also, care to provide a valid source for this date being the time of his claim?

May peace be with you.


If you read Appendix 2 ?God?s Messenger of the Convenant  in Dr.Khalifa?s Translation you will see the date in which he claimed  to have received messengership.


?During my Hajj pilgrimage to Mecca, and before sunrise on Tuesday, Zul-Hijjah 3, 1391, December 21st , 1971, I , Rashad Khalifa, the soul, the real person , not the body, was taken to some place in the universe where I was introduced to all the prophets as God?s Messenger of the Convenant?..?


In regards to your question ?how do you believe Muslims would have known the Night of Decree was at this time?? My answer to that question is that people long ago are not as stupid/dumb as some may think they were. If the Jews (and people of other races and religions) back then could calculate the exact timing of there own festivals then I believe the believers would have been able to do the same.

In any case I firmly believe that December 21st (or 22nd) have to be without a doubt the correct dates for the Night of Decree(The time in which the Quran was revealed and the proper time of fasting). Those who are aware of the Scripture cannot now posses doubt about its time. Now we have the smoking gun. No one can say that this is Dr.Rashad Khalifa's teaching since during his time he did not believe(not came up with the interpretation as yet) that the Night of Decree was on December 21st or the 22nd.

As I  have said previously in my posts , Dr.Rashad Khalifa was still learning the Quran. The studies that exist after his death are just his own interpretations of the Quran. Some i believe to be accurate and others i believe to be wrong. But just because i believe that some of his work is incorrect does not mean that he wasn't a messenger of God. As far as I'm concerned there is not a single verse in the Quran that says that messenger's are teachers of the Quran Anyone who says or believes otherwise must be reading from some other book that I am not aware of. The Book that I read on a daily basis says that God  is the teacher and not his messenger. For example I'm 100% sure that Prophet Muhammad  could not have known all the interpretation's of the Quran. There are some parts he could have never guessed correctly it's interpretation(eg. the splitting of the moon and other prophecies, the numerical and scientific signs in the Quran). 



 
Peace,

Kevin.



Eikonoklastes

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Re: The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2011, 06:18:25 PM »
Salam Eikon,

The conclusion that it is the longest night of the year has to do with the characteristic of God that He taught us, which is His "mercy". If God were to select a night in which to bless mankind with peace and guidance, then it goes without saying that He would chose the "longer" rather than the "shorter".

Peace Layth,

I understand this is the belief behind it, but I don't find it to be a valid one. May I ask, what do you believe a Muslim should do on this particular night? Do you think we should stay up all night, and we will receive some type of upgrade? Or that we will experience another realm of peace or more guidance if we ask/study on this night than on any other night (which would surely IMO mean we should pull the all-nighter to take advantage of it)? What is the significance behind this length? Like I said, are the Spirit/Angels bound by our time that they need(ed) the longest night? Do we need to do anything more than reflect on this night, and would it matter if we did it for some 8-10 hours as opposed to 1, etc.? It makes no sense in light of Quran-alone thinking. The length of the night does not matter, it is the quality. If you believe we should be up all night to experience this length, then I don't find it to be quite merciful for those who will be tired and groggy the following morning for farming and work in general.

Quote
And, since the birth of Jesus as you said places us back to the period of Nov-Dec-Jan, then the choice falls to the one in which God's mercy would be greatest? Answer, the one with the longest night.

I'm guessing we agree to disagree on this point, since I've made mine before and you hold this one. But again, if the Spirit/Angels make the connection, then there is no evidence that they were around at the time of Jesus' conception (even if it was in December), as they were there for the announcement to Mary (time not indicated), but not at the time of conception as far as we know. There is substantial evidence that there was no "immaculate conception" (http://www.freewebs.com/nadqur/birth.htm), therefore the link is broken as the announcement featuring the Spirit/Angels could have been at any time.

May peace be with you.
Now, we must all fear evil people. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good people.

Eikonoklastes

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Re: The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2011, 06:40:04 PM »

If you read Appendix 2 ?God?s Messenger of the Convenant  in Dr.Khalifa?s Translation you will see the date in which he claimed  to have received messengership.


?During my Hajj pilgrimage to Mecca, and before sunrise on Tuesday, Zul-Hijjah 3, 1391, December 21st , 1971, I , Rashad Khalifa, the soul, the real person , not the body, was taken to some place in the universe where I was introduced to all the prophets as God?s Messenger of the Convenant?..?

Peace Kevin,

Thanks for the source. The information is interesting. How do you suppose Rashad Khalifa met all of the prophets of Allah when they are dead and awaiting Judgement Day? This would defy Allah's laws. Perhaps he was trying to be in line with the traditional belief about Muhammad's ascension to heaven, which is just that, traditional belief. There is no Quranic proof of it, much like there is no Quranic proof of the claims of Rashad.

Do you not also think that if Rashad had this same belief in the Winter Solstice, and had an agenda (or was mentally ill), that it would be rather convenient to pick this date as his miracle? If I find something rarely known or unknown about the Quran, and would like to be glorified for it, I could easily pick December 21st as my miracle date too. It's not solid proof at all. But this is besides the bigger point, I find his account of this alleged journey to be strange.

Quote
In regards to your question ?how do you believe Muslims would have known the Night of Decree was at this time?? My answer to that question is that people long ago are not as stupid/dumb as some may think they were. If the Jews (and people of other races and religions) back then could calculate the exact timing of there own festivals then I believe the believers would have been able to do the same.

The Winter Solstice is a well-known period and has been for a very, very long time. It's difficult to believe that no significant number has considered it before as the Night of Decree (probably because there is no valid reason to). Also, there is no real calculation behind it. It's just a suggestion that such a night as the Night of Decree should be the longest. But what would be the purpose for this length? There is none at all as Allah is not bound by our time to need the longest night.

Also, my original question was that without Rashad's claim that he received his miracle on this date, there is way too much doubt. So I was asking, without this knowledge, how would Muslims prior have been convinced of this date as much as you are now?

Quote
In any case I firmly believe that December 21st (or 22nd) have to be without a doubt the correct dates for the Night of Decree(The time in which the Quran was revealed and the proper time of fasting). Those who are aware of the Scripture cannot now posses doubt about its time. Now we have the smoking gun. No one can say that this is Dr.Rashad Khalifa's teaching since during his time he did not believe(not came up with the interpretation as yet) that the Night of Decree was on December 21st or the 22nd.

It is still only a matter of opinion. There are plenty of valid reasons to believe otherwise. Let's not set such sturdy bars.

May peace be with you.
Now, we must all fear evil people. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good people.

Eikonoklastes

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Re: The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2011, 07:36:29 PM »
Peace Kevin,

Apparently in 1971, the Winter Solstice just so happened to be on December 22nd. It is commonly on the 21st, but occasionally happens on the 22nd as well.

This dismantles your theory. Rashad Khalifa claimed to have had his miracle on December 21, 1971. And if one believes that he may have chose this date to try and be in line with the Winter Solstice theory, it clearly shows that he fumbled.

Source: http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/seasons.html?year=1950&n=151

May peace be with you.
Now, we must all fear evil people. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good people.

KDC501

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Re: The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2011, 09:24:12 PM »
Peace Kevin,

Apparently in 1971, the Winter Solstice just so happened to be on December 22nd. It is commonly on the 21st, but occasionally happens on the 22nd as well.

This dismantles your theory. Rashad Khalifa claimed to have had his miracle on December 21, 1971. And if one believes that he may have chose this date to try and be in line with the Winter Solstice theory, it clearly shows that he fumbled.

Source: http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/seasons.html?year=1950&n=151

May peace be with you.


No it doesn't dismantle the theory at all. You are under the illusion that during the year 1971 that people were 100% correct in calculating the winter solstice period. However if you were to ask any astronomer they will tell you that all calendar calculations are APPROXIMATIONS . Not in million years could any calendar calculation could have been 100% accurate. No one can prove otherwise.

?The Seasons Calculator calculates the approximate time and date of the March equinox, the June solstice, the September equinox and the December solstice?..?

In regards to this other issue on ?Dr.Khalifa may have chosen this date to try and be in line with the Winter Solstice theory? ?is very eccentric and irrational thinking. It also shows that you barely read anything about the ?submitters group? Dr.Rashad Khalifa believed in the traditional month of Ramadan that 90% of the ?muslims? believe in today. The Winter Solstice theory is a new interpretation that started AFTER his death and not before. Also it was not developed by ?submitters?( who I believe have somewhat strayed from the Way) but another group. If you want to know more ask Layth. His group I believe is responsible for the Winter Solstice theory and NOT THE SUBMITTERS.

Peace,

Kevin.

KDC501

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Re: The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2011, 06:17:40 AM »
Peace Kevin,

Thanks for the source. The information is interesting. How do you suppose Rashad Khalifa met all of the prophets of Allah when they are dead and awaiting Judgement Day? This would defy Allah's laws.


God's servants never die:

3:169 Do not count that those who are killed in the sake of God are dead. No, they are alive at their Lord receiving provisions.

2:154 Do not say of those who are killed in the sake of God that they are dead; no, they are alive but you do not perceive.

8:24 O you who acknowledge, answer the call of God and His messenger when he calls you to what will grant you life. Know that God comes between a person and his heart, and that to Him you will be gathered.

44:56 They do not taste death therein except for the first death, and He has spared them the retribution of hell.


Do not carelessly jump to conclusion's before carefully studying the Quran.
20:114 Then High above all is God, the King, the Truth. Do not be hasty with the Quran before its inspiration is
completed to you, and say, "My Lord, increase my knowledge."

Peace,
Kevin