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Winter Ramadan (as outlined by The Natural Republic) - Investigation

Started by Eikonoklastes, August 08, 2011, 04:42:11 PM

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Layth

Salam Ashraf,

QuoteFrom TNR i learned that the 1st(Ramadhan) to the 4th Month is the Restricted Months/Hajj Months

From the Quran we know that in 2:196 Hajj have some fasting involved in the process as an option for whoever have affliction to his head also in the same verse it is mentioned that for people who continues visiting till hajj need to give donation, but if he cant, thenr he needs to fast  3 days in Hajj and 7 days when we are back home

Also in 5:95 it is said that fasting is a punishment option for those who hunt animals during Hajj .

In my opinion, having Ramadhan as a part of the 4 restricted/hajj months creates a problem when the person who is already fasting(because of ramadhan - be it 10 days or a month) having to fast during the hajj months as indicated in 2:196 and 5:85. Hence my opinion that the restricted/hajj months and Ramadhan does not overlaps.

How do you address this problem?

Your observation is well pointed out, but does not refute that ramadhan & hajj can overlap.

Fasting is only for 10 days.

So, from full moon (start of the month) to the crescent moon (pilgrimage) you have 12 free days in which to fast the 10. Assuming a person did not fast at all during the 12 days, he/she would only lose the 3 days of the pilgrimage as a punishment fast, leaving the remainder of the month in which to fast - this actually seems more supportable to ramadhan & hajj being the same as the command in 2:196 tells the person not to fast the remaining 7 days until he/she returns to his/her home town - which seems to be meant to free up the remainder of the month from any punishment fasting.   
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

loli

Salam Layth,

thanx for the reply.. i'll digest it for a while.. need sometime to think.

Salam
Ashraf
23:97-98. And Say: ?My Lord, I seek refuge with you from the whispers of the devils.??And I seek refuge with you O Lord that they should come near.?

MaverickMonotheist

I've been thinking about this extensively, and I think the winter Ramadan makes more sense for the following reasons:

1) The fast, according to the verses that discuss it, say that God did not intend for it to be a hardship.  Fasting close to the winter solstice would mean the shortest days possible, making the fast less of a hardship than if fasting close to the summer solstice when the days are at their longest.

2) Prior revelation, in my very n00b opinion, supports a winter fast.  Before anyone starts throwing rotten food at me, hear me out.

First, I suspect that R-M-D may be a loan root from Aramaic (no, I don't buy that crap about the Quran being written in Syriac).  "Taurat" and "Injeel" are loan words from Hebrew and Greek, so why not?  The root means wonder/amazement/marvel.  There happens to be a fall fast of 10 days in the Jewish tradition that also marks the beginning of the new year.  AND it is called the Days of Awe.  Notice the similarity in "awe" to "wonder/amazement/marvel"? 

The fast of the Days of Awe also marks the creation of the world.  Early Christian thinking viewed the advent of Jesus to be a kind of revisiting of the creation of the world, creating it anew.  Compare the first chapter of John's gospel with the first chapter of Genesis.  Clearly, the author of John's gospel was drawing a parallel with the coming of the word from God (Jesus) to the creation of the world.

So, again in my very n00b opinion, a winter 10 day Ramadan fast that also marks the beginning of the calendar year, seems to make the most sense, maintaining what was still accurate from revelation to the Jews, but correcting the fall fast of the Jews to bring it in line with the conception of the Messiah.  On a related note, there are problems with the Jewish calendar according to the Torah because there are actually two "new year" dates.  One is Rosh Hashanah (the first of the Days of Awe), and the other is the giving of the Torah.  The holiday of the giving of the Torah has to be figured based on the first omer of winter barley at harvest time, so it moves solely based on crops.  Rabbis use a formula from the Talmud to "correct" this agrarian approach, but the winter Ramadan solution is a better one.

Any thoughts?
-Joel

kgwithnob

Quote from: MaverickMonotheist on August 17, 2011, 10:45:39 AM
I've been thinking about this extensively, and I think the winter Ramadan makes more sense for the following reasons:

1) The fast, according to the verses that discuss it, say that God did not intend for it to be a hardship. Fasting close to the winter solstice would mean the shortest days possible, making the fast less of a hardship than if fasting close to the summer solstice when the days are at their longest....

...Any thoughts?
-Joel
Highlights are from me.

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602533.msg280437#msg280437

Peace,
Khalil

Mushu

Peace

I question one of the premises of this whole calendar issue, being the use of the word shahr.

34/12 And for Sulaiman the wind, its morning was a full moon [shahrun] and its rawāḥu was a full moon [shahrun] [...]

I've left rawāḥu untranslated as I don't believe it means afternoon.  In any case, the above verse makes no sense to me when shahr is made to mean "full moon".

2/194 The sacred full moon [al-shahru l-ḥarāmu] with the sacred full moon [l-shahru l-ḥarāmi] and the sacred rites [l-ḥurumātu] is qiṣāṣun. 

Again, making shahr to mean full moon presents problems.

2/197 The ḥaj (is) full moons [ashhurun] known, [...]

We see translations insert the word "during" here.

9/5 uses the term l-ashhuru - "the full moons"  Yet in 9/36 we see l-shuhūri - "the full moons".  What's the difference between the two words? 

Regarding 9/36, the article "Blind Dating Versus Perfect Timing" linked earlier says,

"What The God is telling us is that we should always count 12 full moons in a year"

The word "year" is not in the verse.  The word ʿāman is used in the next verse, but the article doesn't explore why this word and sanatin are both translated as "year" in the quran.  In fact in 10/5, which is used in the article, l-sinīna is translated as "the years".

9/37 also begins with the word "only" [innamā] - does this mean that only the delaying is kuf'r but bringing forward is okay?

"There is one thing in this world which must never be forgotten. If you were to forget everything else, but this one thing, then you may have no fear; but were you to remember to do every single thing, but forget that one thing, then you would have done nothing at all."  - Jalal Uddin Rumi

[URL=htt

Eikonoklastes

Quote from: MaverickMonotheist on August 17, 2011, 10:45:39 AM
I've been thinking about this extensively, and I think the winter Ramadan makes more sense for the following reasons:

1) The fast, according to the verses that discuss it, say that God did not intend for it to be a hardship.  Fasting close to the winter solstice would mean the shortest days possible, making the fast less of a hardship than if fasting close to the summer solstice when the days are at their longest.

2) Prior revelation, in my very n00b opinion, supports a winter fast.  Before anyone starts throwing rotten food at me, hear me out.

First, I suspect that R-M-D may be a loan root from Aramaic (no, I don't buy that crap about the Quran being written in Syriac).  "Taurat" and "Injeel" are loan words from Hebrew and Greek, so why not?  The root means wonder/amazement/marvel.  There happens to be a fall fast of 10 days in the Jewish tradition that also marks the beginning of the new year.  AND it is called the Days of Awe.  Notice the similarity in "awe" to "wonder/amazement/marvel"? 

The fast of the Days of Awe also marks the creation of the world.  Early Christian thinking viewed the advent of Jesus to be a kind of revisiting of the creation of the world, creating it anew.  Compare the first chapter of John's gospel with the first chapter of Genesis.  Clearly, the author of John's gospel was drawing a parallel with the coming of the word from God (Jesus) to the creation of the world.

So, again in my very n00b opinion, a winter 10 day Ramadan fast that also marks the beginning of the calendar year, seems to make the most sense, maintaining what was still accurate from revelation to the Jews, but correcting the fall fast of the Jews to bring it in line with the conception of the Messiah.  On a related note, there are problems with the Jewish calendar according to the Torah because there are actually two "new year" dates.  One is Rosh Hashanah (the first of the Days of Awe), and the other is the giving of the Torah.  The holiday of the giving of the Torah has to be figured based on the first omer of winter barley at harvest time, so it moves solely based on crops.  Rabbis use a formula from the Talmud to "correct" this agrarian approach, but the winter Ramadan solution is a better one.

Any thoughts?
-Joel

Peace,

It would be nice to believe the fasting is after the Winter Solstice, but we do need the evidence as well. If one believes that Jesus was conceived at the time of Mary receiving the announcement of bearing the Messiah, I suppose this theory would make sense, but otherwise it doesn't. And there is strong evidence that Jesus wasn't conceived at that moment.

Interesting about the root of the word, but the strongest definition of Ramadan does seem to mean something along the lines of "scorching heat". I find it odd that Allah would use the word simply to follow the name of the man-made month, than for it to hold a more significant meaning. Also the Four Restricted Months seem to make more sense placed at the time of wildlife birth and child-rearing than the time of mating. It's close in line with today's hunting laws as well.

I'm still unsure on the whole matter myself, either way. I'm just bouncing ideas around.  :-\

May Allah guide us all.

Now, we must all fear evil people. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good people.

farida

Quote from: Mushu on August 17, 2011, 02:06:25 PM
Peace

I question one of the premises of this whole calendar issue, being the use of the word shahr.

34/12 And for Sulaiman the wind, its morning was a full moon [shahrun] and its rawāḥu was a full moon [shahrun] [...]

I've left rawāḥu untranslated as I don't believe it means afternoon.  In any case, the above verse makes no sense to me when shahr is made to mean "full moon".

2/194 The sacred full moon [al-shahru l-ḥarāmu] with the sacred full moon [l-shahru l-ḥarāmi] and the sacred rites [l-ḥurumātu] is qiṣāṣun. 

Again, making shahr to mean full moon presents problems.

2/197 The ḥaj (is) full moons [ashhurun] known, [...]

We see translations insert the word "during" here.

9/5 uses the term l-ashhuru - "the full moons"  Yet in 9/36 we see l-shuhūri - "the full moons".  What's the difference between the two words? 

Regarding 9/36, the article "Blind Dating Versus Perfect Timing" linked earlier says,

"What The God is telling us is that we should always count 12 full moons in a year"

The word "year" is not in the verse.  The word ʿāman is used in the next verse, but the article doesn't explore why this word and sanatin are both translated as "year" in the quran.  In fact in 10/5, which is used in the article, l-sinīna is translated as "the years".

9/37 also begins with the word "only" [innamā] - does this mean that only the delaying is kuf'r but bringing forward is okay?

Salaam

Shahr is the full lunar month, which starts from the appearance of the  cresent to the end of the month "...until it returns like an old palm sheath" making it a full month/moon/shahr.
What we call a full moon in English is actully only a half moon, as it has but reached the middle of its journey. Shahr is simply the  lunar month and the problem has been created by some people seeing it from a  modern translation of Arabic into English concepts.
The second confusion started as Ramadan only applies to those who witness it. Witnessing is always related to time for example when one gives testimony its always on such and such occassion when a specific occurence happened, so only those who witness breakdown of day and night into a month of Ramadan shall fast therein.
67:14 Would He not know who has created? And He is eternally Aware/Knowledgeable au fait of all niceties and delicacies/subtlety/refinements.
The one who created this world knew of places where a month does not happen in terms of day and night breakdown so those living  in places like that were the ones who do not witness the month of Ramadan, as seperation of day breaking and approach of the night is vital requirement for fasting. But when it comes to prayers they are not exempted, as they are not forgotten. Their timing is clearly given according to their region, as in 20:130

Peace
farida

Mushu

Peace farida,

Quote from: farida on August 17, 2011, 06:02:24 PM
Shahr is the full lunar month

I question this as well.  If you look at the points I raised in my last post, inserting "month" into those verses presents problems as well. 
"There is one thing in this world which must never be forgotten. If you were to forget everything else, but this one thing, then you may have no fear; but were you to remember to do every single thing, but forget that one thing, then you would have done nothing at all."  - Jalal Uddin Rumi

[URL=htt

MaverickMonotheist

Quote from: Eikonoklastes on August 17, 2011, 05:55:41 PM
Peace,

It would be nice to believe the fasting is after the Winter Solstice, but we do need the evidence as well. If one believes that Jesus was conceived at the time of Mary receiving the announcement of bearing the Messiah, I suppose this theory would make sense, but otherwise it doesn't. And there is strong evidence that Jesus wasn't conceived at that moment.

Interesting about the root of the word, but the strongest definition of Ramadan does seem to mean something along the lines of "scorching heat". I find it odd that Allah would use the word simply to follow the name of the man-made month, than for it to hold a more significant meaning. Also the Four Restricted Months seem to make more sense placed at the time of wildlife birth and child-rearing than the time of mating. It's close in line with today's hunting laws as well.

I'm still unsure on the whole matter myself, either way. I'm just bouncing ideas around.  :-\

May Allah guide us all.

I see both sides of the argument.  Since I don't know Arabic, I have to make most of my arguments from prior revelation where I see them fit with translations of the Quran.

Personally, I think a winter conception is supported by the gospels.  Jesus' birth happened under a period of census, which would not have been enacted to interfere with planting and harvesting in the spring and summer.  This leaves winter and fall as the choices for seasons of his birth.  Winter is improbable if the announcement to the shepherds is true.  They would not be out at night with sheep, at least not comfortably, in winter.  There may also be another clue in John's gospel.  John 1:14 - "The word became flesh and dwelled among us..."  The greek word "dwelled" refers to sojourning in a tent, which could refer to the birth happening during the time of Sukkot, the Feast of Tabernacles, when Jews live in tents to commemorate the sojourn from Egypt.  This feast happens in the fall, around September or October depending on the year.  So, if a fall birth is plausible, count back 9 or 10 months for a normal gestation (1st births tend to go longer), then a late December conception date is the most reasonable.

But again, this is not an argument from the Quran.  The only one I can think of is the references to the prophet being cloaked or wrapped in his garments at the revelation of the first suras.  Wouldn't this support cooler night time temperatures in the winter?

I think a practical benefit of a summer Ramadan is the effect it has on the human body.  I've pretty consistently followed a calorie-restricted diet for the past 3 years, and I can tell you the first summer I clearly noticed a difference in how heat affected me.  The building where I work is not air-conditioned, so we get window units to make it bearable.  When I ate somewhere between 1,200 to 1,500 calories a day, some days I did not even need to turn the window unit on.

But I'm not sure about it being tied to the summer solstice.  Typically, the hottest temperatures don't occur until a month after the summer solstice because it takes time for the sun to raise the overall temperatures of the soil and large bodies of water.

I just don't know.  I was going to observe Ramadan this summer, and then I read Layth's posts and read the related chapters from The Natural Republic.  ;)  I believe the Quran is clear guidance, so what is it that is right in front of our eyes that we are missing?

Quote from: kgwithnob on August 17, 2011, 01:19:56 PM
Highlights are from me.

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602533.msg280437#msg280437

Peace,
Khalil

The traditional approach to Ramadan is a pragmatic one, but the problem I find with it is it becomes completely ahistorical.  The revelation of the Quran is an event in history.  It happened at a specific time of year.  A rotating observance of Ramadan does not recognize this fact.

Quote from: Mushu on August 18, 2011, 04:44:28 AM
Peace farida,

I question this as well.  If you look at the points I raised in my last post, inserting "month" into those verses presents problems as well. 

Peace Mushu,

I think a very easy mistake to make with any language is to assume that a word means the same thing in every context.  Hebrew has several words that can mean a wide range of things depending on the context.  For instance, "olam" can refer to eternity, an indefinitely long period of time, a fixed period of time based on the context, and with a masculine pronoun can also refer to God.  All languages have words that require fluid contextual interpretation.

-Joel

kgwithnob

Quote from: MaverickMonotheist on August 18, 2011, 08:33:30 AM
...But again, this is not an argument from the Quran.  The only one I can think of is the references to the prophet being cloaked or wrapped in his garments at the revelation of the first suras.  Wouldn't this support cooler night time temperatures in the winter?...

...I just don't know.  I was going to observe Ramadan this summer, and then I read Layth's posts and read the related chapters from The Natural Republic.  ;)  I believe the Quran is clear guidance, so what is it that is right in front of our eyes that we are missing?...

...The traditional approach to Ramadan is a pragmatic one, but the problem I find with it is it becomes completely ahistorical.  The revelation of the Quran is an event in history.  It happened at a specific time of year.  A rotating observance of Ramadan does not recognize this fact...
Highlights above are from me.

The Islamic lunar calendar was not invented with the advent of The Qur?aan. The lunar calendar has been around and being used on a regular basis long before the revelation of The Qur?aan. The month of Ramadan is only the NAME of the NINTH month in that particular calendar. This calendar has, CONSTANTLY, ONLY 12 months in it, and is around 11 days shorter than the solar calendar. That is why the lunar calendar months, CONSTANTLY, move through the 4 seasons. By the same token the month of Ramadan just like any other lunar month can fall in spring, summer, fall, or winter. So, the revelation of The Qur?aan could have started in any season. Also, we should keep in mind that the revelation of The Qur?aan took around 23 years to COMPLETE. It was not revealed all at the same time, and I believe that, its revelation did BEGIN in the month of Ramadan, just as The Qur?aan claims.

My point here is that, GOD?S SYSTEM is a JUST system and it will never change. It is a JUST system because for example regarding the month of Ramadan, if it is going to be within a fixed month, falling within a fixed season every year, it?s going to be favorable and very easy for some people and unfavorable and hard for others. If for example Ramadan is in summer all the time, year after year, the fasting is going to be long and hard for the people living in the northern hemisphere and very short and easy for the residents of the southern hemisphere. This does not hold water within GOD?S system of JUSTICE.

Now, if the months of FASTING and HAJJ and? move around the four seasons by 11 or 12 days each year, then everyone gradually goes through all the seasons of the year and no one will be wronged.

Peace,
Khalil