Author Topic: Theory of Evolution anyone ?  (Read 32557 times)

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Theory of Evolution anyone ?
« Reply #190 on: June 02, 2020, 01:51:39 PM »
salam noon waalqalami

you mention surah 17 verse 50.
please note it is not The God who tells people to be iron and stone. The God tells the believers (or maybe muhammed pbuh, depending on whom the verse was addressed to) to “say” to the disbelievers whether they be of iron or stone, or whatever creation, they will still be ressurected.

whilst in the verse about the sabbath transgressors, it is The God who tells them “Be despicable apes”. note that he verse says “We (The God) told them Be despicable apes”

you say “if transformed when were they named قرده qiradatan?
which language were people at that time speaking?”
i do not understand what you mean and what is your point

you say why did monkeys spread quickly. why do you assume that those whom pigs and apes were made from originate from middle east and that it was just a one time event? The God says those He was angry with. He does not say the one nation or “qawm” He was angry with. He says “those” He was angry with. so perhaps He was angry with people across the globe and throughout different times? my advice, do not go assuming things

The God said “made from them THE apes and THe pigs” why not believe that He literally made from them apes and swine??? and that it is a sign and proof from The God to the believers !
is it a coincidence that swine and apes are very similar to humans? even to the point that scientist say humans originated from apes and swine hybrid? and that swine organs are compatible with humans? etc etc


peace, read in context one incidence during time of Musa 2:63-66, 2:92-93, 4:47-48, 4:154, 7:163-168
قلنا said we of لهم to them “كونوا be ye of قرده monkeys خسىىن despicable!”
no mention of swine or conversion rather a direct “statement/chastisement” and they were punished unstated how; likewise quran is a translation into Arabic of dialog that transpired in their language at the time which according to you there would be no monkeys or a word for monkeys in any language until later after they spread regardless of initial location. Therefore, in your theory you cannot use above verses.

5:60 read in context about behavior e.g. 7:179/25:44 كالانعم kal-anami/like “the” cattle
likewise, dna were a closer to the cow than the swine.

Berlin, State Library: ms.or.fol. 4313
606-652, CE (95.4%) [¹⁴C dating by Coranica] - parchment
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/5/vers/60/handschrift/15



tutti_frutti

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Re: Theory of Evolution anyone ?
« Reply #191 on: June 02, 2020, 02:03:52 PM »
salam noon waalqalami

again, the episode with the sabbath transgressors is not the same as when we are told The God made apes and pigs from humans.

sabbath transgressors were turned into despicable apes
yes they were punished and we are told how!
they are turned into despicable apes !!

and this is not the same as when we are told The God made pigs and apes from people He was angry with. THEY ARE NOT RELATED :)

what do you mean who called them monkeys?

well, who called a cow a cow? or a rabbit a rabbit? or a fly a fly? or a car a car?
even today im guessing new animal species are found and named
well, with The God’s permission, when people stumbled upon apes they called them apes and same for pigs

we do not use cow organs in humans, and we do not have same organs as cows or same skin etc etc
with swine yes !!!!

you say “5:60 read in context about behavior e.g. 7:179/25:44 كالانعم kal-anami/like “the” cattle”

here there is “like the”, but regarding the pig and ape verse there is NO “like the”
there is “We MADE FROM THEM the apes and the pigs” and NOT “made them “like” the apes and the swines”

peace

tutti_frutti

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Re: Theory of Evolution anyone ?
« Reply #192 on: June 02, 2020, 08:45:58 PM »
salam noon waalqalamk

i want to add something
you use translation of  “ja3ala minhom” as “made of them” and not “made from them”

if it was “made of them”, then you mean pigs existed before and some humans turned to pigs and apes?
but that is NOT correct

why? well alllllll pigs and apes are similar to humans !
whatever pig you pick up, its still a pig and has same body as allll the other pigs ! otherwise it would not be a pig !!

and its organs will be compatible with humans cause it is a pig like allllll the other pigs !

you dont have some pigs compatible with humans and some not - that does not make sense, it would mean that every pig is a different animal

there is swine, there is NOT swine version 1 and swine version 2 and swine version 3 etc :s
there is swine, as there is human, there is cat, fly, horse etc

also, when someone asks you where you are from - you reply “min”
“min” means from

anyways peace my friend

jkhan

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Re: Theory of Evolution anyone ?
« Reply #193 on: June 02, 2020, 11:06:36 PM »
4:47 "O! You who have been given the Book, believe in what We have sent down, confirming what is with you, before We obliterate faces, and turn them upon their backs, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-men, and God's command is done"

Peace...
Do anyone have a better research on what I have highlighted and underlined...  What exactly does that mean to you...
Or simply what you understand when you read it..

@ TF...
God didn't forbid  apes so your claim still weak... And pigs also not forbidden in a sense as they were human.. Only flesh forbidden  and I can eat pork if compelled so... The reason to forbid is no way near what you claim.. Try to understand your claim is weak.. Don't be adamant.. It's so clear... God never forbids coz pigs are human.. Lol...

Furthet I do t see anything wrong NW calling made of them --- minhum.. Even made from them or even  made among them... Just all works...

tutti_frutti

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Re: Theory of Evolution anyone ?
« Reply #194 on: June 03, 2020, 08:49:49 AM »
salam jkhan

you may eat pigs if compelled just as you may eat carrion when you are compelled

i do not understand what is the issue with being given permission to eat a forbidden food if compelled and not seeking transgression. how does that negate the fact that swine was made from humans???

why apes are not forbidden to eat? only The God knows. maybe the way pigs were made from humans is not the same as the way apes where made (actually body versus just dna etc) or maybe because those to whom the Book was sent do not eat apes anyways, but tend to eat swine.
i do not know why apes are not forbidden. all i know is to take the Quran as the literal word of The God, and when He says He made apes and pigs from humans, then i believe it
i do not understand why people are interpeting YET AGAIN the Quran, especially a very straight forward verse !!!

you say “The reason to forbid is no way near what you claim.. Try to understand your claim is weak.. Don't be adamant.. It's so clear... God never forbids coz pigs are human.. Lol...”

so what do you claim?? what is your understanding?
you say its soo clear...what do you mean its soo clear? what is soo clear?
if you have some special knowledge please share

anyways peace my friend and good luck

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Theory of Evolution anyone ?
« Reply #195 on: June 03, 2020, 10:26:54 AM »
you use translation of  “ja3ala minhom” as “made of them” and not “made from them”

peace,
it’s not we made “from” them abada l-taghuta – which is an ideology not an animal.

like saying we made from the german people (literally) wiener schnitzel and nazism.

3:110 منهم min’humu/of (among) them المومنون the believing واكثرهم and more them الفسقون the disobeying

9:61 ومنهم wamin’humu/and of (among) them الذىن the ones ىوذون pestering النبى the prophet

21:29-30 ومن and who ىقل sayeth منهم min'hum/of (among) them انى indeed I اله deity من from دونه besides him فذلك so such نجزىه we compensate him/said person جهنم abyss كذلك like such نجزى we compensate الظلمىن the wrongdoers اولم do they not ىر see الذىن the ones كفروا reject they of ان anna (an inna/that indeed) السموت the skies/heavens والارض and the land/earth كانتا be she/they dual رتقا sewn of ففتقنهما so ripped we them dual وجعلنا and made we of من mina/from الما the water كل every شى thing حى live افلا then so not ىومنون believing


good logic

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Re: Theory of Evolution anyone ?
« Reply #196 on: June 03, 2020, 11:03:12 AM »
Peace All.

Every now and then I get the feeling that I should not approach subjects like this. However I am not listening to me and here we go:

 I will tackle "the controversy of evolution" from all angles,especially from  Science and religion prespectives by first asking the following questions:
1-Where did anyone see an animal, a plant or a human appear as fully grown like by some kind of magic( i.e without going through stages)?
2- Have the stages developped through the ages? If yes ,how?
3- What does Qoran say about stages of creation?

One may say GOD can do magic, but GOD tells us that creation is done by stages . GOD also tells us that there are laws and there is order to the creation. GOD says "be (to the plan) and it is (after certain stages)" .

Let us start with a simple case of the human.
The baby is conceived then starts as a single combined cell of the male and female from their reproductive organs.
This single cell contains information(DNA) guiding its path to become a fully grown baby. DNA codes are shaping the divide of the cell and the production of different organs within the cell to produce a human being with the eyes, ears, brain and all the parts that make it human.
Then GOD has given it the "spirit" of life and out it comes  a baby human.
This baby still will grow and develop physically and mentally while learning about life and preparing to take his/her part in this life as a fully grown adult.(With exceptions of those that do not make it for reasons only known to the creator!)
This is part of what one can define as an evolution ,be it  a specific human one.
Animals and plants have similar process that may differ slightly. One gets the point up to here.

Now here comes the part that has so much controversy and is strill at loggerhead by Science and religion.From the extreme "we come from apes" to GOD created"Adam and Eve" as a whole grown up man and woman!!!

Well ,prepare for some good logic "assumptions" that may marry the two camps, or not!!!
GOD started the creation of the earth in 4 stages that made it habitable for us( solely for our purpose to live here). Part of the stages was the balance of all the elements required for life like Oxygen, CO2, ...etc.
The earth has undergone an evolution to become what it is. The stages were necessary for its completion as a habitable planet.
Similarly all the inhabitants (Animals/iinsects, plants and humans)/were to be created on this earth to compliment this purpose .How?

Remember that first cell that produced the human baby with all its different organs and their functions?
Darwin in a way was right remember his theory about the single cell, you know the one that formed in the water from elements including "clay". l Darwin was wrong in its simplicity. What Darwin did not know(and could not at that time) was that this single cell was complex, full of information(DNA) how to grow and what to produce?

This complex cell had DNA information to produce different species of animals/insects and humans,all at the same time( Like the single baby cell that was programmed to produce different organs of different functions).
To cut a long story ( A very long story of millions of years) short, all the various species came out at once. Each type of species underwent their own evolution and perfection in various surrondings of the "habitable earth" -By natural selection-.

In the case of mankind, well, (Our species and Monkeys evolved separately .We did not evolve from them!!) GOD waited for  our shaping ( Khalaknakum Thumma Sawwarnakum Thumma...) Created us-That first cell-, then shaped us-Through evolution to perfect our shape , brain...etc. Then GOD chose Adam and Eve for the demonstration to the Malaika...-  Of course the rest is history.

Before you ask me to publish any finding in a journal or a book or..
 First I have not found anything that GOD has not given us as information to investigate -either from Qoran or Science or others who studied it-
Second I am saying this is my opinion according to me.
Lastly, it does not matter what one believes ,please let us all try and follow/do the message.

So when GOD says"Badaa Al Khalk"  Started a creation .it always means there are stages to its completion and  we are no different to all other species.
Then when God gave us the Amana- free will-, Monkeys and pigs were not given this. Hence humans did not and will not become monkeys or pigs.
What GOD is saying in the verses is simply "As dispicable as apes /pigs from our point of view.( Not GOD s!)

GOD bless you all.
Peace.
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tutti_frutti

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Re: Theory of Evolution anyone ?
« Reply #197 on: June 03, 2020, 11:09:36 AM »
salam noon waalqalami

we are told THE apes and THE swine but NOT THE abada

and also abada could perhaps mean and “they worship the taghut”

so perhaps The God made from them THE apes and THE swine and they worship the taghut (devil?)

or The God made from them THE apes and THE swine and worshippers of the taghut (devil?) AND NOT THHHHE worshippers of taghut

salam good logic

first, what do you mean by natural selection? what is natural selection? some intelligent mechanism that drives life snd adaptability??

The God decides, not “natural selection”
do not equate natural selection to some power that drives life on earth ... dont you think doing so is shirk?
The God decides, and not some mechanism humans invented in their minds and called natural selection (or you say The God created the mechanism of natural selection? buy why? and The God governs the world, and everyday He is governing it (as told to us in the Quran))
...

when you say stages etc and you mention as the baby comes out it is developing etc..the baby is still human..it will not grow into something not human. a baby develops into a human and stays a human. where is natural selection and transformation here? do some babies develop into something non human? no, babies grow into what ever species they are meant to be.
a baby cat becomes an adult cat, a baby human becomes an adult human, a baby fly becomes an adult fly etc

you say “ What GOD is saying in the verses is simply "As dispicable as apes /pigs from our point of view.( Not GOD s!”
why are you assuming this???

you say “ Then when God gave us the Amana- free will-, Monkeys and pigs were not given this. Hence humans did not and will not become monkeys or pigs.”
who said the apes and monkeys given amana?
first off, we need to stop assuming that we know what amana is and equating it to free will or reason etc we do not know what amana is, case closed
and for your reference, you claim it is free will..well a horse can decide to rest or to go jumping in the field or a dog can decide to come lie down next to its master or run etc etc so animals have free will. you dont think?

the mountains, skies and the earth refused the amana, so did they not think? to refuse it, they thought about it perhaps? so is that not reasoning? and to accept or refuse it, is thay not a sign of free will? they had the free will to accept it or refuse it right?
we are actually told the human being accepted it and the human is ignorant and transgressor. so perhaps it is we who reasoned wrong
my point - do not assume about what amana is, we simply do not know

second, monkeys and pigs came AFTER humans as they were made FROM humans. so what are you saying by monkeys and apes not given amana?? as they came AFTER humans and FROM humans

adam was created as adam, not as something that evolved into adam
adam was created as adam (you agree?) and then came down to earth as adam with his wife (why do people call her eve by the way?? we are not told her name)

regarding “early” humans like neandertals, please read this verse (chapter 7 verse 69):

“Do you consider it odd that there should come to you a reminder from your Lord through a man from among yourselves, so that he may warn you? Remember when He made you successors after the people of Noah, and increased you vastly in CREATION. So remember Allah’s bounties so that you may be felicitous.’”

The God increased the people of ad in CREATION after noah’s people. The word “khol9a” is creation. so yeah, noah’s people are what scientists call “early humans”

there is no evolution by natural selection. that does not even mean anything. The God govrns the world, as is clearly told to us in the Quran, and He is capable of everything

anyways it is an extremely straight forward verse (s)
but it seems each understands it differently

peace and good luck

good logic

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Re: Theory of Evolution anyone ?
« Reply #198 on: June 03, 2020, 02:17:26 PM »
Peace tutti_frutti

Yes brother, I am sure reading your posts , we have a different understanding. As sure as there was evolution of all the species,  A GOD guided evolution of course.

I do not really know where to start or if it is worth the effort  conversing about this huge gulf of views in our understanding of evolution and the creation of mankind.
So you think this,quote:
"adam was created as adam, not as something that evolved into adam
adam was created as adam (you agree?) and then came down to earth as adam with his wife (why do people call her eve by the way?? we are not told her name)

I thought Adam was created on earth? (Minha khalknakum  Wa Fiha Nuhidukum Wa Minha Nukhrijukum ...)
From the earth we have created you(Beni Adam includes Adam) and on earth we reproduce you and from earth we will resurrect you.

If you do not mind I will pass from the conversation altogether as I find  we are miles apart in our views and it will be pointless

Like I said let us both put our effort in living the message. Please forgive me if I do not respond on this subject.
Good luck to you as well.
Thank you and GOD bless you.
Peace.
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tutti_frutti

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Re: Theory of Evolution anyone ?
« Reply #199 on: June 03, 2020, 03:25:31 PM »
salam good logic

hope your well

yes i understand adam was created from earth/(clay? but adam and his wife first lived in paradise (unless you equate paradise to earth)

“and “o adam, dwell, you and your wife, in paradise (garden/jannah) and eat from wherever you will but do not approach this tree, lest you be among the wrongdoers."” (ch 7, verse 19)

then adam was told “to go down”.  the go down for me means earth, as earth is mentioned in same verse and the “that which they were in” perhaps means existence free from hardship and knowledge of nudity (i do not know, i only think)

“but satan caused them to slip out of it and removed them from that in which they had been. and We said, "go down, as enemies to one another, and you will have upon the earth a place of settlement and provision for a time."” (ch 2, verse 36)

in any case whether adam was created on earth then put in paradise or created in paradise from clay/eartg, that does not change that there is no evolution. i do not see the relationship between being on earth or paradise and evolution

you realize i hope that idea of “evolution”  exists only because scientists cannot explain why humans are similar to apes, and cannot also explain why there are “depsicable” apes (what they call human ape ancestors) in africa

the only thing they can say is “evolution and natural selection” and humans originated from
africa in order to try to “rationalize” it in their minds

same goes for pigs. scientist see pigs are very similar to humans and so they start saying we have a common ancestors with pigs. just cause they cannot explain it they invent weird theories (plse google the theories if you have time)

we know why apes and pigs are like humans. The God told us in the Quran. He made them from humans. HE decides and HE does what HE wants.

we know who the “human ape ancestors” are. The God told us in the Quran (they are the sabbath breakers who were made into despicable apes) please look at the verses 65 and 66 of chapter 2:

“for you are well aware of those from among you who profaned the Sabbath, whereupon We said to them, "Be apes, despised."

And We made it a deterrent punishment for those who were present and those who succeeded [them] and a lesson for those who fear The God.”

The God says they are a deterrent punishement for those of that time and succeeding generations ! well, we found them ! we found their fossils/skeletons! they are a warning to us !!

if you say what about the generations before the human/ape skeletons were found, check verse 106 of surah 2:

“Whatever sign (aya) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. know you not that The God is able to do all things?”

for me “aya” means signs here and not verses.
we have skeletons and fossils of those “apes” whilst perhaps previous generations had other signs and proofs and coming generations will have other signs and proofs

please think about evolution and the idea of humans and apes sharing an ancestor, and natural selection very hard and you’ll hopefully see that it is extremely silly

anyways yeah we have too much of a gap in our understanding lol mayb i am compleeeetely wrong indeed, but i believe what i believe

good luck my friend. looking forward to reading your other thoughts and understanding of the Quran and our worship of The God

peace