Author Topic: Theory of Evolution anyone ?  (Read 33499 times)

tutti_frutti

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Re: Theory of Evolution anyone ?
« Reply #180 on: May 28, 2020, 02:04:43 PM »
salam

regarding the “low”, sorry it was meant for layth regarding his previous post (and to people who claim that swine is forbidden because it is a “low/unclean animal”)

you say “ no, they were chastised (faqul'nā) not turned into apes nor made to be steadfast in the justice, etc.”

do you realize that The God told us that when He wants something He simply says to it “Be” and it is (and it is logical as He owns what is, and He owns existence (He creates existence))

“He is the One Who has originated the heavens and the earth, and when He wills to a thing, He only says to it: 'BE', AND IT BECOMES.” (chapter 2, verse 117)

so by telling the sabbath transgressors “be despicable apes”, well they became despicable apes

and He also told us the example of jesus is like adam, The God simply told jesus to “be” and jesus came to existence in mariame’s womb.so where is evolution here? and if adam was told “be” and he was as well, where is evolution? did adam appear in a human/monkey hybrid’s womb? well i personal highly doubt (although obviously The God is capable of all things)
adam was in paradise before earth and then adam was told to descend to earth. so as i understand it, adam was created as adam before The God sent him to earth

and adam was created in his image (we know that there are non like The God (plse see verse below) so perhaps in his image meant adam was created as adam and not as part of evolution? or maybe The God is telling us adam has free will? but the angels and djinns have free will i think. animals too. or perhaps The God means the ability to reason? but yet again there are none like The God (i am giving other possibilities because only The God knows the truth))
“The Creator of the heavens and the earth. He hath made for you pairs of yourselves, and of the cattle also pairs, whereby He multiplieth you. NAUGHT IS AS HIS LIKENINESS; and He is the Hearer, the Seer.“ chapter 42 verse 11

for chapter 5, verse 60, The God says those He cursed, and not those He curses. so it is a past tense. the word “cursed” is past tense as such it was the past for prophet mohammed’s (pbuh and pbu all the other prophets and messengers) generation yeah?

the following is just an assumption i am making please do not quote me. if you are saying that people becoming apes and pigs is present or an ongoing process (perhaps why not?) then pigs you see are made from transgressors up to this day maybe? look at what disbelievers say in chapter 40 verse 11:

“They will say, "Our Lord, You killed us (or made us lifeless?) twice and gave us life twice, and we have confessed our sins. So is there to an exit any way?"”

maybe disbelievers have a life as humans then as pigs? note that in hell disbelievers will not die nor be alive as we read in chapter 14 verse 17:

“he will gulp it but will hardly swallow it. And death will come to him from everywhere, but he is not to die. And before him is a massive punishment“

you mention pork is forbidden just as blood, carrion etc but what is your understanding of the reasons?

just for extra, here is my take on the forbidden foods:

already dead/lifeless: it has been dead already we do not know if it was killed in the name of The God or not (was it killed by dsibeliever or another animal? or died naturally?) and also not safe for consumption (bacteria parasites etc)

blood: i think blood carries something about life, like perhaps the fuel for our bodies (although not a reference, please check what the bible says about blood)

dedicated to other than The God: well obviously we should give thanks before we kill an animal (as well as give thanks to The God for any other food we eat before we take a bite) and as such the animals should be sacrificed it to The King.

pork: akin to cannibalism as they were made form humans

thats just my take on it and and my understanding, perhaps i am completely wrong :)

only The God knows the truth

peace

jkhan

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Re: Theory of Evolution anyone ?
« Reply #181 on: May 28, 2020, 07:43:25 PM »
Peace brother TFruti. .

Yes.. You are wrong as you claim.. " Perhaps I am completely wrong "

But in this case.. Your claim that pork is forbidden coz swine is from Human is total assumption which has no instructions from God.. May be it can be a blasphemy on God's verses..
God simply forbidden.. So they are forbidden.. Why forbidden is for our ASSUMPTIONS  not necessarily true and required either. But in the case of pork.. God says it is "rijz"... People can take various reason according to studies in pork since it is mentioned rijz while forbidden ..
BTW God only forbidden flesh of swine and not whole of swine.. So. Your claim further weakens.. Can you forbid the fat of swine?  So how do you take it without killing.. Further under compulsion and dire necessity pork can be consumed.. As well meat of apes not forbidden.. There needs consistency if the reason is as you claim ..

God promises that He will fill Men and Jinn in hell and they (disbelievers) and stones are fuel for hell..2:24 ... Not apes and pigs..

Let turn to the point.. I have tried to understand those apes and pigs verses,  but unfortunately cannot conclude to date with convinced set of mind.. .. Whether God made them from Human out of shear ANGER and CURSE on them apes and pigs or those verses mean something else..
Probably you are right God made them from those community if taken literally... But your claim for reasons forbidden food within Quran is weak.. But assumptions..

One more thing.. In case God made from that community Apes and Pigs then it is not fair on their children ... God send human in this world to be tested and not by birth be apes and pigs and be tested... God created men and Jin for testing.. No animals included..
But in the case of that community.. God used not only the word pigs but apes.. Two type of animals concerning Disbelieving aggressive people.. And note the ANGER/WRATH of God as well CURSE of God over them.. This doesn't happen normally.. Even in case if God turned them,  that could be the end of them (as destruction )for me and no more living so that story continues based on one communities disastrous action.. Others no need to feel the brunt of them.. It's not testing.. Remember God tests Human and Jin...
Note below verse..

4:47 "O! You who have been given the Book, believe in what We have sent down, confirming what is with you, before We obliterate faces, and turn them upon their backs, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-men, and God's command is done"

So,  it was a warning to the people of scripture as well through QURAN .. So it seems similar to Sabbath never happened again (God knows though.. Could have happened as well).. But God warns.. So.. Apes and pigs already were living when verse 4:47 was revealed.. But still God promises that He is ready to turn them into as it was done to Sabaath-breakers .. In case God accomplished what He promised in verse 4:47... We can't claim again that apes and pigs came from Human after this verse.

God's CURSE and WRATH together normally can only be a destruction  ... Once God cursed no way out at all.. And coupled with anger then God only knows what He does..

For me.. Apes and pigs were created well before as all of other animals..  And in the case of Sabaathbreakers it was only a punishment and destruction...  Hope they all died..

Read carefully 7:165 and 166 .. It was a punishment and others who obeyed was saved... And these were destroyed but with a shameless destruction to feel them.. 

And it seems it has happened in various occasions... Sabbath is clear Apes... not pigs. That could be another occasion. . And don't forget God turned another group to slaves/worshipers of taguth.  ..(5:60)
But Sabaathbreakers case very clear a destruction..  And only apes mentioned for them..

tutti_frutti

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Re: Theory of Evolution anyone ?
« Reply #182 on: May 28, 2020, 08:01:22 PM »
salam jkhan

again, i said those that The God made from apes and swine are NOT the sabbath transgressors

the sabbath transgressors were transformed into “despicable apes” and NOT swine and it was a punishment, and i understand they died off

pigs and swine : made from disbelievers

despicable apes : sabbath transgressors told to “be despicable apes”, we are NOT told The
God “made from” the sabbath transgressors despicable apes

why did The God add adjective “despicable” in this case? why did He say “be” and “made from”?
where were the sabbath transgressors if not egypt? where were allllll ape human common ancestors found by archeologists? africa ! where is egypt? africa !
coincidence?

i am not making assumptions, i am taking the verses as they are and literally.

anyways to each and everyone their beliefs. if i am wrong then may The God please guide me if He wants.

peace

jkhan

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Re: Theory of Evolution anyone ?
« Reply #183 on: May 28, 2020, 11:05:20 PM »
salam jkhan

again, i said those that The God made from apes and swine are NOT the sabbath transgressors

the sabbath transgressors were transformed into “despicable apes” and NOT swine and it was a punishment, and i understand they died off

pigs and swine : made from disbelievers

despicable apes : sabbath transgressors told to “be despicable apes”, we are NOT told The
God “made from” the sabbath transgressors despicable apes

why did The God add adjective “despicable” in this case? why did He say “be” and “made from”?
where were the sabbath transgressors if not egypt? where were allllll ape human common ancestors found by archeologists? africa ! where is egypt? africa !
coincidence?

i am not making assumptions, i am taking the verses as they are and literally.

anyways to each and everyone their beliefs. if i am wrong then may The God please guide me if He wants.

peace

Peace again brother..

Explore...  And don't be adamant while exploring.. Relax.. Listen to others and ponder and verify... Exploration is combination of success and failure..
You have no evidence to resort to a firm decision that all pigs in this world are human once and still they are but their figure looks pigs.. You need to skin off to prove this..

Sabbath is one incident... And apes involved.. They were punished...

Taguth converted people another incident.. And people continued to live.. May be still around. No idea..

Pigs involved is another people.. How do you say that they live... If not with curse and wrath of God He won't convert them to pigs.. Such things always for destruction.. Coz we can take example from Sabaathbreakers = People + apes..  Involved.. Died as destruction...

Which people ?????? = people + pigs  involved... Didn't they tast the destruction?

But in taghut case God let them live in their blindness unless they change themselves ... Such a curse..

But with the time and new generation even the taghut people would have believed.. There is chance as per Quran verses.. 2:256

So dear rush of blood... Lol... You have no proof from Quran that pigs are human once..
You coin pig story to which prophet period?  Any proof?  So no pigs UNTILL then on earth? Is it Musa you claim?

Further..  5:60 it was in order... Apes  then pig then taghut.. So apes from Sabaathbreakers then pigs has to be after sabath...
Which prophet related to sabath.. ?

Your google search says this..

Pigs are also called swine. Pigs were among the first animals to be domesticated — about 9,000 years ago — in China and in a region in what is now Turkey. Asian farmers first brought domesticated pigs to Europe around 7,500 years ago, according to Smithsonian magazine.

If domesticated  then they must be living well before.. That's what your google says..

tutti_frutti

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Re: Theory of Evolution anyone ?
« Reply #184 on: May 29, 2020, 12:24:27 AM »
salam

again, the sabbath breakers and those from whom pigs and apes were made are not the same thing

again, the sabbath breakers were told to “BE DESPICABLE” apes and NOT “apes and swine” but DESPICABLE APES (note the adjective DESPICABLE)

i am not claiming that the swine and apes are during musa time. you are assuming that because you have not understood what i am saying. again sabbath breakers and those from whom swine and apes were made are not the same.

and why do you assume that those from whom The God made apes and pigs had to be during a prophet or messenger lifetime or during a prophet or messenger mission?

regarding the swine and ape, my proof is from the Quran. The God said He made from them THE swine and THE apes (AL QIRADATA and AL KHANAZEERA) note the “AL” which is “THE”

again, sabbath breakers and apes/swine are TWO DIFFERENT things

your quote from the internet about domestication does not mean anything. humans try to make “sense” of everything. they try to make everything be “scientific”

and even so, let us assume swine was indeed domesticated in china and turkey, who says those The God made from swine were not first in china and turkey? who says they have to be just one group of people in one location at one time?

and again, sabbath breakers and those whom swine and apes were made from ARE NOT THE SAME

i have no blood rush or so, i am just merely expressing my understanding. i am using capital letters to get my point through

i am not adamant... i am passionate about my worship of The God

anyways i rest my case.

peace

jkhan

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Re: Theory of Evolution anyone ?
« Reply #185 on: May 29, 2020, 01:42:12 AM »
Then anyone would wonder why you claimed sabath was in Egypt? 
What made you to decide?  From Quran or outside?
God destroys always after a Warner is sent and being called for right path... That's why I asked which messenger you refer since openly claimed Egypt and Africa...
 Okay rest... That would give you relaxation... And open more vistas

tutti_frutti

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Re: Theory of Evolution anyone ?
« Reply #186 on: May 29, 2020, 08:08:52 AM »
salam

again, the people from whom swine and apes were made are not the sabbath transgressors

the sabbath transgressors issue took place when beni israel were in egypt. as sabbath was given to beni israel, all i can think of is perhaps the issue happening after jospeh time (as i understand beni israel are descendants of joseph and his brothers when they moved to legypt)

sabbath was given to beni israel from my understanding as they disputed in it (my opinion is they got the sabbath because they blasphemed by saying the fabrication that The God rested on the 7th day) the question is, was the sabbath decreed before the Torah was sent or after the Torah was sent

when they were told “be despicable apes”, they transformed into what scientists call the human/ape ancestor who ate neither human. nor ape, but a despicable and weird looking human//ape

scientists claim that humans evolved from within africa because all the human/ape ancestor fossils were found in africa

egypt is in africa - so i am guessing either they (they as in the sabbath transgressors turned into despicable apes) fled from egypt to locations such as kenya when they were transformed or there were diasporas already existing across eastern africa

AGAIN, humans from whom swine and apes were made are not the same as the sabbath breakers

peace

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Theory of Evolution anyone ?
« Reply #187 on: May 31, 2020, 10:31:08 AM »
do you realize that The God told us that when He wants something He simply says to it “Be” and it is (and it is logical as He owns what is, and He owns existence (He creates existence))

“He is the One Who has originated the heavens and the earth, and when He wills to a thing, He only says to it: 'BE', AND IT BECOMES.” (chapter 2, verse 117)

so by telling the sabbath transgressors “be despicable apes”, well they became despicable apes

peace, it's not the same these describe process ...

2:117... فانما so solely ىقول speaketh له to it كن be فىكون so being
3:47 .... فانما so solely ىقول speaketh له to it كن be فىكون so being
19:35 ... فانما so solely ىقول speaketh له to it كن be فىكون so being
40:68 ... فانما so solely ىقول speaketh له to it كن be فىكون so being

3:59 ... ثم furthermore قال said له to him كن be فىكون so being
6:73 ... وىوم and day ىقول speaketh كن be فىكون so being
16:40 ... نقول we speak له to it كن be فىكون so being
36:82 ... ىقول speaketh له to it كن be فىكون so being


whereas this is speech, not about creation etc.

2:65  فقلنا so said we of لهم to them "كونوا be ye of قرده monkeys خسىىن despicable"
17:50 قل say "كونوا be ye of حجره stone او or حدىدا iron of"


if transformed when were they named قرده qiradatan?
which language were people at that time speaking?

why so many monkeys across the globe spread quickly?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01t197x/p01w4yv8

the following is just an assumption i am making please do not quote me. if you are saying that people becoming apes and pigs is present or an ongoing process (perhaps why not?) then pigs you see are made from transgressors up to this day maybe? look at what disbelievers say in chapter 40 verse 11:

5:60 ... وجعل and made منهم of them القرده the monkeys والخنزىر and the swines وعبد and devote الطغوت the false idols

figurative or non-literal language


tutti_frutti

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Re: Theory of Evolution anyone ?
« Reply #188 on: May 31, 2020, 11:09:30 AM »
salam noon waalqalami

you mention surah 17 verse 50.
please note it is not The God who tells people to be iron and stone. The God tells the believers (or maybe muhammed pbuh, depending on whom the verse was addressed to) to “say” to the disbelievers whether they be of iron or stone, or whatever creation, they will still be ressurected.

whilst in the verse about the sabbath transgressors, it is The God who tells them “Be despicable apes”. note that he verse says “We (The God) told them Be despicable apes”

you say “if transformed when were they named قرده qiradatan?
which language were people at that time speaking?”
i do not understand what you mean and what is your point

you say why did monkeys spread quickly. why do you assume that those whom pigs and apes were made from originate from middle east and that it was just a one time event? The God says those He was angry with. He does not say the one nation or “qawm” He was angry with. He says “those” He was angry with. so perhaps He was angry with people across the globe and throughout different times? my advice, do not go assuming things

The God said “made from them THE apes and THe pigs” why not believe that He literally made from them apes and swine??? and that it is a sign and proof from The God to the believers !
is it a coincidence that swine and apes are very similar to humans? even to the point that scientist say humans originated from apes and swine hybrid? and that swine organs are compatible with humans? etc etc

peace :)

tutti_frutti

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Re: Theory of Evolution anyone ?
« Reply #189 on: June 01, 2020, 09:24:03 AM »
salam

i would like to share another website and quote a passage from it (please read the website and also google research)

“But pigs offer more than just a potential source for organ donation. For over 30 years, scientists have been using pigs in a number of medical fields, including dermatology, cardiology and more. Recently, scientists were even able to re-grow human leg muscles using implants made of pig bladder tissue.”

“No one really knows why the organs and anatomical systems of pigs are so similar to humans. Swindle (retired veterinary researcher) theorizes that millions of years ago, they were even more similar, but then the species diverged genetically and independently developed similar characteristics through evolution.”
https://www.foxnews.com/health/why-pigs-are-so-valuable-for-medical-research

scientists keep throwing theories to try to explain why apes, pigs and humans are extremely similar, so they come up with ridiculous things like evolution and common ancestor etc. but us (who believe the Quran is from The God) we know the true answer. we know why apes and pigs are very similar to humans. The God, in His infinite mercy, told us in the Quran. He made them from humans. i believe it is yet another sign and proof from The God to humanity, and that is definately a mercy from Him !

i thank The God !

peace