Author Topic: True Arabs CAN ONLY BE BLACK!!  (Read 16822 times)

Halil

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Re: True Arabs CAN ONLY BE BLACK!!
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2011, 10:09:54 AM »
I'm not sure about that anymore. The simulations used to prove/give evidence, are they free from 'assumptions'? It is an approached model, even if it's agreed to be the 'closest'. It's by no mean an end all be all, but rather part of an ongoing research. On the other side, there are recent findings (2010 i think) where it's said that Neanderthals are far more intelligent than what we thought before. I mean, what if the "modern man" was not limited to just Homo sapiens? (funny to say 'modern' which means 'now', especially if you're not holding on to the evolution theory). There's also very fresh news from Israel, claiming 400,000 years old 'modern man' fossils that could challenge the Out-of-Africa theory, but of course it's too early to say anything about. It's all very interesting though.
Of course, youre right about that. Science to this day has at its best never been better than a practically applicable approximation. However we as believers have the Quran to guide us on the general direction on issues that can be found mentioned in it.

Regarding ancestry, however, albinism wouldn't explain the change of the other features/characteristics, would it?
If albinism were to make an impact on the offspring it would surely only be on the skin tone. I dont know however if it even does that. Still could be interesting to keep it in mind. I dont know what other variations that can generally occur.

As much as ive been able to understand and make my mind upon sofar however, i do believe that there is a "leap" that can happen in the change of the offspring, not by random mutation but by inention, either designed so in the basic structure or by later intervention.

049.013 O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).
God is the light of all on high and all on earth. An example of His light is like a niche that contains a lamp, that lamp being in a certain kind of glass. And it is as if that glass were a brilliant star, lit from some blessed olive tree, neither western nor eastern. The oil of that tree will almost shine without being touched by any flame.  He is a light above any light, and guides to His light whoever wants it and whomever He wishes to bring to it. God gives metaphors for the benefit of people and is discerning of all things.

Quran - 24:35

progod

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Re: True Arabs CAN ONLY BE BLACK!!
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2011, 02:50:33 PM »
Peace,

Sarah, not to be rude, but I don't need to shorten my paragraphs. You can still read what I have to say if you take your time. Sometimes I use paraghraphs sometimes I don't. But does that really matter? To address your questions:

I stated in my previous post:
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"There was so much mixing with Persians, Levantine Byzantines, Levantine Greco-Romans, Armenians, Kurds, Slavs and Turks that this becoming an Arab without anyone making a big deal of it became possible (and there are tons of names for all the different sorts of mixtures and who in your family was an Arab or a non-Arab), although it was known (before colonialism) that the purer Arabs remained black."


Also Ignaz like many Orientalists (especially modern ones) don't have a clue about what old Arabic poetry says especially when it comes to colors. Either that or they intentionally hide the truth which European scholars are infamous for doing. The below will answer the question about blue and black Arabs, which Ignaz has hidden from his readers. This was included in my first post, which it seems you did not read thoroughly (it seems you didn't read my second post thoroughly either):

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Nineth century poet Abu Al-Hasan Ali ibn Al-Abbas ibn Jurayj, known as Ibn Al-Rumi, wrote a long poem to the Abbasids blaming them for the way that they treated the family of the Prophet Mohamed (SAWS). It should be understood that at that time, the Abbasids had become very mixed with the Romans, Greeks, and Persians. Here is part of what Ibn Al-Rumi said in his famous poem called Al-Jeemia:


"You insulted them (the family of the Prophet Mohamed) because of their blackness while there are still pure-blooded black-skinned Arabs. However, you are blue- the Romans have embellished your faces with their color."

What does blue mean here in Classical Arabic? Lisanul-Arab says:

ابن سيده: الزُّرْقة البياض حيثما كان، والزُّرْقة: خضرة في سواد العين، وقيل: هو أَن يتغشَّى سوادَها بياضٌ،

"According to Ibn Sayyidah: Blueness is fairness/whiteness wherever it may be. And Blueness is a (tint) of green in the blackness/darkness of one's eye. It is said: It's when the darkness/blackness of the eye is overpowered by fairness/whiteness."

So blue in Arabic (in addition to red) means fairness/whiteness, and when it comes to the eyes, when fairness overpowers the darkness in one's eye. This can also be applied to fairness in skin tone as well. The quote of poetry above uses the term blue like the definition of eye color given in Lisanul-Arab. He clearly says that it is the prominence of Roman/Byzantyne blood which made many Arabs quite fair-skinned compared to the much blacker/deep browner skin-tone of the purer Arabs. During that time those who claimed relation to the last prophet (sas) had maintained their Arab lineage much purer than other Arabs.


If you are not going to read my posts thoroughly and then pose questions which would have been answered had you read all of my post, and on top of that rely on dishonest European orientalist scholarship over accurate sources which are cited for you and which I have given you sources for then please do not bother to respond to this post, as you will argue the contrary no matter what, because of some prejudice or bias you have, either against me or the topic at hand.

Halil,

Thanks for speaking the truth and seeing this truth for what it is. Also thanks for providing that interesting DNA info.

Godbless,
Anwar
The Quranists Must Rise!

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SarahY

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Re: True Arabs CAN ONLY BE BLACK!!
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2011, 05:18:48 PM »
Peace

I read your post and i'm not trying to be rude. it 'doesn't really matter' but it makes the text more readable/enjoyable.

you'e entitled to your beliefs. did you read Ignaz's book? because he pretty much implies what you do in regards to "blue" and "black" and no i'm not relying on dishonesty. just sharing thought.

you claim i'm not reading thoroughly and that you answered the questions.. well in actual fact you didnt and you should pay closer attention to your reading. I only asked 3 questions, 2 being rhetorical and one answerable question which was left unanswered "who are the true Arabs today?".  I assume based on your abundance of knowledge you'd know the answer

salam



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Follow your heart but take your brain with you.
ambiguity is there for a reason, why do you think?
We're all different, so how can we all be equal?

Mushu

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Re: True Arabs CAN ONLY BE BLACK!!
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2011, 05:53:52 PM »
To think that the immigrants are the original people and always have been is to believe something false which can lead to respect not being given where it should be.

This is pretty much the problem I'm having with your posts.  Although I'm all for raising awareness that Ancient Arabs used to look different to what we would understand as modern Arabs, your agenda of giving 'respect' is misplaced.  The agenda should not be to give respect to black people for being the 'original Arabs' (which is a false concept, which I will come to later) but to ensure all people of this planet are given due respect.  The ultimate goal should be for everyone to become colour-blind.  We should not look at white people and think 'oh they're not original Americans', nor should anyone look at black people and say 'he's not an indigenous Swede' etc.  We all belong everywhere and nowhere.

The point is, all lands were, and will continue to be populated by immigrants.  Black people didn't magically appear on the Arab peninsula, they must have migrated from somewhere.  So what does it matter that they happened to populate a bit of land first? It in no way makes them 'original' anything because this Earth belongs to Allah.  He willed that the first people to populate the Americas were brown people, and He willed that it would later be populated predominantly by white people.  There are no originals, because they were all human.


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Many false things have been stated about Arabs (and I have heard them with my own ears and read them with my own eyes) and have been passed off and believed as fact when they are pure ignorance and lies.


Again, if this is your goal then I support you.  But I'm getting mixed messages from what you're posting.
"There is one thing in this world which must never be forgotten. If you were to forget everything else, but this one thing, then you may have no fear; but were you to remember to do every single thing, but forget that one thing, then you would have done nothing at all."  - Jalal Uddin Rumi

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progod

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Re: True Arabs CAN ONLY BE BLACK!!
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2011, 06:56:21 PM »
Your queston on who are the true Arabs today can somewhat be answered in the title of this topic. If they claim to be Arab for as far back as they know, they live in and hail from Arab lands and they are black, then they are the closest thing you will get to an original Arab. They are the most original Arabs, the most aborignal Arabs of anyone who calls himself an Arab. The blood that runs through their veins is PREDOMINANTLY ARAB. However if the person is fair and has straight hair or even colored eyes and colored hair, than that person is as far as you can get from an original Arab. They are very UN-ORIGINAL or NON-ABORIGINAL Arabs and are the ancestors of arabicized foreigners and this sort of blood is the predominant blood that runs in their veins. In some countries like those of North Africa, Egypt and the Sudan this may get trickier.  Because in these lands black Arabs mixed with black egyptians, black berbers and black nubians in the Sudan. However, you will be suprised that most in North Africa and the Sudan know if they are Arab or berber or other. What they may not know is if they are berberized or arabicized foreigners. As many light skinned Arabs don't know. Although some of them do know that they come from persia or have mostly persian blood. If they are black and they claim to be fully Arab than there is no reason NOT to believe them, thinking that they come from Africa or from African slaves. The blood of these black Arabs is most pure on the Arabian peninsula i.e. Saudi Arabia, Oman, Yemen, Qatar, Bahrain, southern Iraq, and Jordan. And here many know their family lineages very well. However, they can also be found in those lands not originally part of the land of the Arabs, i.e:  Syria, Lebanon, upper Jordan, Egypt, Sudan and North Africa in much smaller numbers.

Godbless,
Anwar
The Quranists Must Rise!

http://www.quranists.com

san

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Re: True Arabs CAN ONLY BE BLACK!!
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2011, 03:38:31 PM »
Of course, youre right about that. Science to this day has at its best never been better than a practically applicable approximation. However we as believers have the Quran to guide us on the general direction on issues that can be found mentioned in it.

[...]

049.013 O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

Strange finding here. The translation you used, it's Yusuf Ali, right? There is actually no word that corresponds to "single (pair)" in the Arabic script. Then I checked the occurrences of dhakarin (you can see here, Ctrl+F search for "dhakarin" and there you go). Please notice the similar "min dhakarin aw/wa untsa" in all of the occurences.

See the pattern? Right, in four of the occurrences, it's not translated as a singular noun object in the sense of one, specific male or one specific female ("a male" or "a female") but rather, simply to denominate human gender, as in "...of male or female...". In the verse 49:13, suddenly the same "min" preposition popped out as "from" which, in English, could definitely be taken as denoting origin. Furthermore, the terms dhakarin and untsa each receives noun-number "a" and as such, appear as explicitly singular noun objects).

Let's try a little exercise for consistency, using the format that fits the other four verses:

49:13 O mankind! Indeed, We created you of male and female and We made you nations and tribes that you may know one another. [...]

male and female (human gender), nations and tribes (groups of humans)

Implied is difference (so "that you may know one another")

So, in my view, using that verse in support for the single-pair human origin theory is very questionable. On the other hand, it may also show us how a preconception could lead us to bias in our reasoning. The reasoning used in the translating of AQ apparently isn't free of such bias.

In this specific case, however, it's very easy to test which side of consistency is the more likely to be true. You can reverse what i did above and make the other four occurrences to follow the format that is popularly-accepted with 49:13 (which would be, in those verses, "...from a male or a female..." with the "from" preposition intended to explicitly denote an origin, and "a" denotes noun-number). What do you make of that?



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progod

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Re: True Arabs CAN ONLY BE BLACK!!
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2011, 07:06:03 PM »
San,

What's up with this comment?

 
Quote
"Muhammad is imagined by most as being white", yes, i can personally confirm that it's the case at least here where i live. It's the image i've been reading in hadiths and sirah/biography books... Maybe challenging his white-ness would invite the same reaction as claiming the ugliness of Joseph... :/

The Qurans says Joseph was beautiful.

I wish people would actually visit the sources where I pull this stuff from. I figure if you (not just you San) find the topic interesting that you would check out the sources. I'll just sum it up though. If you are interested in truth you will do your own digging and check the sources.

Abyad in ancient Arabic meant a few things: fair, white, luminous, brilliant, clear.
Azhar in Arabic means: a beautiful tone/the best tone (not white or pink tone).
When describing the fairness of people two terms were used: Ahmar (red) and Azraq (blue).
Persians, Turks, Byzantines, Greeks and slaves were called red (al-humr, al-ahaamirah and al-hamraa'u).
Many Arabs in the old Arabic literature are described as both dark brown and abyad. Abyad here means luminous.
There is even an expression in Arabic 'wajhuka abyad' which does not mean 'you are white.' It means you are radiant, luminous, brilliant. The lexicons state that Arabs preferred to say Red for fair/white people and preferred aybad to comment on the character of a person.
It has also been explained in old Arabic lexicons that when the Arabs used 'abyad' for each other as a skin tone they also mean 'wheat brown' or
a person that is black with a light undertone. I.e. light black/brown tones.

Ahmar is the preferred term for white skin as we know it. Also ashqar. Azraq was also used to define 'white' and especially folks whom it was known were fair because they mixed with red (white) people.

There are hadeeth that say that the prophet was white, as in luminous. There two in particular that would seem to contradict each other. One says that the prophet was Asmar (very brown skinned) and the other says he was Abyad bihumrah (fair with hints of whiteness). So this would be more like a dark Europeans tone, dark olive-skinned or high-yellow (which includes dark skinned tones of persians and Mediterraneans). Both hadeeth are of equal strength. One scholar explains it away by saying that under his clothes he was olive skinned/high yellow but where he was exposed to the sun he was very brown skinned. But when you read that someone is 'white' in old Arabic texts, you cannot understand it as white unless it is specifically talking about non-Arabs or it says Red or Blue. For example there is one hadeeth that says the prophet's neck was white like silver! Nobody's skin is white like silver. The meaning here is luminous. And neck seems to have a deeper meaning here, unless it just means shiny.

Wierd? That's only the beginning. Green and yellow also meant aswad (black) or asmar (all shades of very brown skin). Yellow being only connected to the term aswad. Asmar can be broken up into tones. There is general asmar but then there are two darker classes of asmar/sumrah being al-udmah (very deep chocolate) and and as-suhmah(coal/tar black), or al-ismihaan(coal/tar black). Sawaad or blackness seems to have two definitions. Asmar or literally as-suhmah/al-ishmihaan.

You can find all of these defintions and discussion of these terms at www.savethetruearabs.com or in lisaanul-arab. Basically all of these hadeeth have been mistranslated. There is the famous hadeeth about Moses (God bless him) when the last prophet (God bless him too) went  into heaven. The Arabic literally describes him as tawaalun aadamu ashamu with straight hair like the tribe of shanuah. Most translations of the hadeeth will leave out as-hamu (which means coal/tar black) and mistranslated aadamu as 'a man' instead of what it really means which is asumrah-ashadeedah i.e. very, dark/deep chocolate brown. Remember the one 'i was sent to the red and black people'. Red means 'white' and 'black' means asmar. all the tafsirs say that Ahmar means the persians and their likes and aswad means the arabs their likes. But that stuff is intentinally left out of the translations. It's a shame.

By the way aswad also has a meaning of ajallu, i.e. most majestic, most honorable.

Godbless,
Anwar
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san

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Re: True Arabs CAN ONLY BE BLACK!!
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2011, 10:25:47 PM »

No, progod, please don't get me wrong. Personally i'm fine with whatever skin Muhammad had, and actually i found this information you bring very interesting. What i meant by that comment is the irony regarding the common view that is held by Muslims here. And thank you for summarizing those parts, esp about the mistranslations.

These are all new information to me, and so i had to review these terms in Quran when i have enough time. I'm not sure what to say about Adam yet, but i already thought that it couldn't mean a single man as a single common ancestor for all the races of human on earth that exist today, hence my posts above. However this will also be in conflict with the popular Biblical version of the story, though that should be nothing surprising also. Yes, re: Moses being not 'Caucasian-like', i've already figured that it would fit the Quranic story better (just a tiny bit though: could that Arabic of Moses description be possibly translated as "dark-brown-skinned, with straight black hair"?), i.e. he had been interacting with the Israa'ilites (most possibily 'Caucasian-like') as a native Egyptian.

My mind is a bit overloaded right now with these and other stuff etc so please allow me to review this subject later...



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progod

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Re: True Arabs CAN ONLY BE BLACK!!
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2011, 01:33:34 PM »
Peace,

As for Adam. I didn't discuss Adam as in Adam and Eve, just the term Adamu as a description of color. The word can be the name Adam or the descriptive term for al-umdatu, which is dark chocolate brown. I don't think the israelites were caucasian-like, as Moses (God bless him) was probably a typical ancient Israelite. Just goes to show that both the ancient Egyptians (definitely) and ancient israelites (most likely) were two different ethnicities of black people who could overlap in phenotypes and features (the bible has him taking an Ethiopian as his wife). That can be said for a lot of black ethnic groups, who generally look different but where you can find some overlap, some groups more than others. Anyway, I don't take hadeeth too seriously especially hadeeth like these (the description of Moses in a vision), but it is interesting that the hadeeth shows that many Arabs and even Persians believed that Moses was black, very black, and therefore other ancient Hebrews of his time. There are two hadeeth however that have Jesus (god bless him) as ahmar, or white (a color associated with Persians and levantines during the prophet's day) but with bushy/kinky hair. Another says that he had straight hair (implying that the Arabs/Persians believed that the Hebrews mixed heavily with white people, possibly Greco-Romans, Perisans and others). The version with straight hair is recorded as being doubtful by older scholars. The hadeeth about Moses also shows that the Arab tribe of Shanuwah was a black tribe with straight hair when the hadeeth was recorded. Aadmu like I said, is described a dark/very asmar, or dark chocolate.
As-hamu means black like the Dinka and other southern sudanese tribes, black like coal or bitumen.

As for Adam being the father of all mankind. I take Adam to be the name of the tribe of humanity. Like Shanuwah or Quraysh. There is Quraish as the whole tribe and banoo Quraish as all of the members of that tribe. You find this in the Quran with Isra'il. Both Isra'il and Banoo Isra'il are mentioned referriing to the same people. Hence I take both Adam and Banoo Adam to be referring to the same people. As for Adam being black, well all people aren't black. Perhaps this is their origin, perhaps the Arabs or whoever first used the term Adam used this term in general for people because most people were this color. There is another example of this with sawaad, i.e. blackness. Sawaadun-naas means 'the majority of people'  or 'the masses' in Arabic. Perhaps this is the origin of the word but Adam (in addition to 'dark chocolate brown) as far as I understand means humanity.

As for Adam being created from black mud. Even if we consider that Adam was the first man (which I don't believe), if being created from black mud automatically makes you black, doesn't it also make your bones, flesh and blood black too? See the lack of logic in assuming that because one is made from black mud that that makes one's skin color black?

Godbless,
Anwar
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shadowpuppet

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Re: True Arabs CAN ONLY BE BLACK!!
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2011, 05:40:02 PM »
Did you know that most of the original slaves in America were white Irish and not black?
And that most African slaves were sold by their own kings?

It's not a question of colour. It's a question of humanity.

I understand your beef but I certainly have no intention to sit and feel that I have some sort of "impurity" because I am not black skinned. Not in an Islamic forum. That's brain fuck is what that is.