Proof Holy Qur'an + "hadith" is Error!

[harris]

Salaam bros n sistas,
May the blessings of Allah almighty be on all of you.

Unfortunately I see here a post by someone who seems to be very very angry. He seems to be so upset that he has even gone to the extent of abusing me.
Sad that life must be so very tough for him to release his frustrations like this. I pray, things get better for him  


Now since he has taken the pain to carefully comment on each line of my post and surely EXPECTS me to personally do the same, I shall, GOD willing entertain him    

If you know anything about history, you will know that the middle east was deliberately cut up by the British to keep people divided and in a perpetual state of conflict.  

Now wait a minute there... this is your answer to the problem of the SHIA-SUNNI split? Are u suggesting that the British are the culprits for this grand old divide??
Wonder if u mean the white men from the british isles killed Imam Ali and Hussein more than a thousand years back just to make sure muslims fight among themselves!!! woww, sherlock you've solved the case     (That's the funniest $#!^ i've heard in a long time.)
The shia sunni division is a catastrophe that would never have arose if every muslim really followed the message of the Holy Quran. If this split never happened, the muslim ummah would have been invincible by any outside force. In the words of philosopher Will Durant: ?A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within.?  People like u just try to wish this reality away and blame all the problems that followed on outsiders.

Because after they freed themselves from the grip of the Church they proceeded to butcher up the rest of the world in some form or other.  It's very easy to get a headstart in science and technology when you have plenty of wealth to feed your population by making other brown people subservient to you.  If you're suggesting that traditional Islam is to blame for the illiteracy and lack of technological advancements, perhaps you could explain why Muslims were so ahead of the game during the "golden era"?  How come Islam didn't stop their intellectualism and innovations back then? If you can answer that question, perhaps you will think again before blaming the religion of these people for their current misfortunes.

That's such a GREAT INTELLIGENT question... I'm just stumped. I've no idea, how to reply to this..... Wat...wat will I do??  

One word- Wahabism. The Muslims were intellectually ahead of their times as long as they didn't fall into satan's hadith inspired wahabi form of islam which only motivates hatred and closed minds. (And since you seem to believe you're a history teacher, plz checkout how late the salafi/ wahabi teachings really started its influence.) Till then, these hadiths never had a potent effect on the muslim ummah exactly because those people knew just how little importance it deserved in their daily lives. If U do some research, you'd know that before wahabi islam took over, muslims were free to explore the truth in several forms, in their own way. How else did sufism and all the great poets of old come into existence? Heard of any inspiring literature after the wahabi take over?

It was Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab?s extremist views and doctrines that lead to the military campaign shaking the Arabian Peninsula to its core. The Wahhabi faith provided Ibn Sa?ud with the justification he needed to raid and conquer all lands. Though many of these lands were Islamic (and traditional Islamic law prohibits Islamic states from attacking each other), the Wahhabi doctrine viewed all non-Wahhabists as infidels and not true Muslims. The same Britishers U blame were used much later by the Wahabis to take back Mecca in 1932.

Without having wiped out the natives, and built their economy using black people, would US be economically developed?

Err... so you saying that its the black slaves of old America that are responsible for the US becoming a super-power? I just love your fantastic theories.....   So Edison, Ford, Wright bros, Abe Lincoln and all the other thousand great minds were jst part of media propoganda ryt?   Okkkk, if U say so...

You inexplicably end your story at the time of the Ottomans but forget to mention the European invasions and the subsequent divide and conquer tactics, colonialism and rape of the muslim people.  Did that have anything to do with the condition of "Muslim ummah we see today"?

I've not forgotten to mention anythin man..... U have only once again proved my point with shining stars... What u've forgotten is sura 9:14, 9:123 and 22:39 from the Holy Quran.

~Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people, (Quran 9:14)

~O you who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who are the Al-Muttaqoon. (Quran 9:123)

~Permission to fight is given to those (i.e. believers against disbelievers), who are fighting them, and because the believers have been wronged, and surely, Allah is Able to give the believers victory (Quran 22:39)

One simple question Mr. Smarty, if as you say those Muslims were indeed pious and true submitters, why did Allah almighty give power to the Europeans to fight and gain victory over the 'muslims'? Why did He not side with them like He did for the Prophet? Allah almighty assures every true believer that victory is theirs and yet the Europeans conquered the muslim lands... unbelievable  

Either U reject the verses above in the Holy Quran, OR u accept that those defeated were not really true believers. I rest my case.

Yea, that you're an idiot.

Wat the fish! U tat frustrated? No idea why the abusive language. You've got issues man. Better to get it checked soon.  As the name of the site 'freeminds' explains itself, everyone's entitled to their opinion. if u've got a prob with that, then this really aint your joint  

And yes, some people feel just like you and have a sectarian mindset and praised you for this display of ignorance.  But your waffling wouldn't have fooled everyone.

Congratulations. You're un-foolable.

If you're serious about figuring out why the muslim countries are in such a state, I suggest you do some proper research.  

Ok for your kind information, regarding myself: I LIVE in the Middle-east. Was born here and have lived my whole life in this region (except for 4 years).. So plz don't lecture me abt research and feeding me nonsense your local mullah feeds u.


In conclusion, thanks for the history lesson man. One piece of advice: Since I've jst found the hard way that my posts drive you wild, its better for both you and me if you'd refrain from reading this 'idiot's' future posts. That way u'd remain sane and i'd be at peace. Hopefully this will be my last reply to your comments as I have no interest in this exchange of words.


Peace. Respect.
A muslim bro,
Harris.

[san]

Should i take the two above posts as images of your intelligent personalities in the middle of an exchange? Btw, you two consider yourselves muslims, right? So much for ...

"Peace".

[harris]

Should i take the two above posts as images of your intelligent personalities in the middle of an exchange? Btw, you two consider yourselves muslims, right? So much for ...

"Peace".

yeah... such childish behavior... should feel ashamed!   

[SarahY]

Extremism in any form is stupid.

Those images are not a true representation of mainstreamers.

Nothing wrong with hadith in a general sense, people take good from everywhere. divine law is something else.

Each to their own. lakom deenakom waliya deen.

[Mushu]

Now wait a minute there... this is your answer to the problem of the SHIA-SUNNI split? Are u suggesting that the British are the culprits for this grand old divide??

Now wait a minute, why did you not answer my question regarding why Arab and Kurdish Sunnis are killing each other as well in Iraq?  Since you've already had the chance to answer this and you haven't, and from the declaration that you are no longer interested in continuing this discussion, it's safe to assume you haven't got an answer.  That's hardly surprising.  Let me make this easier for you - which hadith are the Arab and Kurdish sunnis using to justify killing each other?  You should be able to answer this given that you've made the claim that hadith is the reason for the violence there.

Wonder if u mean the white men from the british isles killed Imam Ali and Hussein more than a thousand years back just to make sure muslims fight among themselves!!! woww, sherlock you've solved the case  laugh  laugh (That's the funniest $#!^ i've heard in a long time.)

Wonder if you know anything of sunni-shia relationships elsewhere in the world?  Have you heard of a place called the sub-continent?  Do sunnis and shiites butcher each other in those places too?  In Bangladesh, for instance.  If not, why not?  Are they not following the same hadith as the Iraqis?

People like u just try to wish this reality away and blame all the problems that followed on outsiders.

People like you cannot see anything that's not placed in front of their noses. 

One word- Wahabism.

Another word - bullshit.

The Muslims were intellectually ahead of their times as long as they didn't fall into satan's hadith inspired wahabi form of islam which only motivates hatred and closed minds.

Blah blah.  See how the argument's now changed?  You started off claiming hadith was the problem.  Now it's the Wahhabis.  If you admit that pre-wahhabi islam allowed for cultural innovations, why are you suggesting hadith are the cause for the condition of muslims today?  Majority of muslims today are not wahhabis, so your argument (if you can even call this drivel an argument) falls flat on its face.

Err... so you saying that its the black slaves of old America that are responsible for the US becoming a super-power?

Yes.  And the fact that it was a colony of the British Empire.  Did you know that?  But that would only make sense to someone who understands that economic growth begins from establishing infrastructure through labour.

I've not forgotten to mention anythin man..... U have only once again proved my point with shining stars... What u've forgotten is sura 9:14, 9:123 and 22:39 from the Holy Quran.

One simple question Mr. Smarty, if as you say those Muslims were indeed pious and true submitters, why did Allah almighty give power to the Europeans to fight and gain victory over the 'muslims'?

One simple counter question Mr. Ignoramus, where did I say those Muslims were indeed pious and true submitters?  Do I detect a straw-man?  Yes, I think I do.

Your "story" blamed hadith and formalism for the stagnation of Islamic thought which is utterly false.  Innovations went well into the Ottoman Empire by which time madhabbism and hadith were strong.  If hadith really is the cause for today's misery, why did it not stop the Muslims right up to the European invasions from innovating?  And why has no innovation happened since those invasions?  Oh right, yea wahhabism...

Wat the fish! U tat frustrated? No idea why the abusive language. You've got issues man. Better to get it checked soon.  As the name of the site 'freeminds' explains itself, everyone's entitled to their opinion. if u've got a prob with that, then this really aint your joint  voodoo

Frustrated?  Hardly, just stating my opinion that you're an idiot.  That could be wrong, but I see no evidence for it.  Obviously you have no idea why I would take exception to you blaming the hugely complex problems faced by muslims all over the world to their religious inclinations.

Ok for your kind information, regarding myself: I LIVE in the Middle-east.

You actually LIVE in a pool of ignorance.

Was born here and have lived my whole life in this region (except for 4 years)..

Fat lot of good that did you, eh?  You still come with your simplistic and primitive understanding of world and historical events.  I take it you get Western media where you live? 

Where you live is irrelevant.  If you're serious, go and do some reading.  You will find that sweeping generalisations and blaming hadith literature for the problems in the muslim world is stupid.  Stop doing it because it's falsehood.

So plz don't lecture me abt research and feeding me nonsense your local mullah feeds u.

Lol, kind of ironic that the guy who at first blamed hadith for the world's ills who then went and changed it to wahhabism but then couldn't explain why two groups of sunnis were killing each other would warn me about 'feeding nonsense'.  And my local mullahs are sunnis, so I don't listen to them.

In conclusion, thanks for the history lesson man. One piece of advice:

You're in no position to give anyone advice.  You're the guy that blamed hadith for Arab and Kurdish sunnis killing each other... or was that wahhabism? 

You posted several pictures of violence and oppression and suggested that they come about from hadith literature.  You were gently and politely told by more than one person that your opening post was stupid, that the reasoning was false and the rhetoric flawed. Instead of taking heed and displaying some intelligence, you followed up with another stupid post and somehow managed to mention zionism(!).  And now you're upset that you've been called out?  You're surprised that some quran-only guy isn't hugging your balls? 

I'll state it again: you are a sectarian.  You're mindest is that of us vs them.  You came here looking for people to re-affirm this sentiment for you.  You reduced a wide spectrum of religious thought to violence and oppression by using one common denominator: hadith.

its better for both you and me if you'd refrain from reading this 'idiot's' future posts. That way u'd remain sane and i'd be at peace.

It would be better for both you, me and everyone else if you'd stop your bullshit.  That way I wouldn't have to expose you, and you could save face. 

Stop abusing other people's religion by attributing violence and oppression to their scriptures.  It's rude, unhelpful and the path of the idiot.

[Bigmo]

yeah... such childish behavior... should feel ashamed!   

I think there is some truth to what you said. Many of these acts are commited by groups who think this is Islam and for good reason. Because many of these acts are sanctioned by Sunni and Shia Islam. They give the "ruler" divine authority over all matters. he has the power of life and death and he can not be held accountable. Most Muslims may not be aware of what these sects preach and teach.

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598734.0

I have talked about the hadiths that inspires the terrorist.

[harris]

I think there is some truth to what you said. Many of these acts are commited by groups who think this is Islam and for good reason. Because many of these acts are sanctioned by Sunni and Shia Islam. They give the "ruler" divine authority over all matters. he has the power of life and death and he can not be held accountable. Most Muslims may not be aware of what these sects preach and teach.

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598734.0

I have talked about the hadiths that inspires the terrorist.

The Prophet sent (some people) in their pursuit and so they were (caught and) brought, and the Prophets ordered that their hands and legs should be cut off and that their eyes should be branded with heated pieces of iron, and that their cut hands and legs should not be cauterized, till they die. Bukhari

Salaam Bigmo,
Thanks for the link... Unbelievable, how much violence some of those hadiths propogate... the above hadith you have shown in the link alone is enough to prove that those who follow them are lead into the wrong path... The messenger of Allah could NEVER have given such inhuman instructions.

Inshallah, only He can lead the believers to the straight path.

Peace.

[mmkhan]

Salaam,

The Prophet sent (some people) in their pursuit and so they were (caught and) brought, and the Prophets ordered that their hands and legs should be cut off and that their eyes should be branded with heated pieces of iron, and that their cut hands and legs should not be cauterized, till they die. Bukhari

This cannot be Prophet but that could be Phiraun or Bukhari:

20:70 فألقي السحرة سجدا قالوا ءامنا برب هرون وموسى
20:71    قال ءامنتم له قبل أن ءاذن لكم إنه لكبيركم الذي علمكم السحر فلأقطعن أيديكم وأرجلكم من خلف ولأصلبنكم في جذوع النخل ولتعلمن أينا أشد عذابا وأبقى

20:70    So the magicians went down in prostration. They said: We believe in the Lord of Aaron and Moses.
20:71    He said: Have you believed to him before taking my permission? He is surely your great one who has taught you magic. So, I will cut off your hands and feet from alternate sides, and I will crucify you on the trunks of the palm trees, and you will come to know which of us is greater in retribution and more lasting!



May Allah guide us all towards the Truth.
Mohammed M. Khan

[harris]

Salaam,

This cannot be Prophet but that could be Phiraun or Bukhari:

20:70 فألقي السحرة سجدا قالوا ءامنا برب هرون وموسى
20:71    قال ءامنتم له قبل أن ءاذن لكم إنه لكبيركم الذي علمكم السحر فلأقطعن أيديكم وأرجلكم من خلف ولأصلبنكم في جذوع النخل ولتعلمن أينا أشد عذابا وأبقى

20:70    So the magicians went down in prostration. They said: We believe in the Lord of Aaron and Moses.
20:71    He said: Have you believed to him before taking my permission? He is surely your great one who has taught you magic. So, I will cut off your hands and feet from alternate sides, and I will crucify you on the trunks of the palm trees, and you will come to know which of us is greater in retribution and more lasting!



May Allah guide us all towards the Truth.
Mohammed M. Khan

Salaam Khan,
Tats an excellent point... the verse clearly shows that those exact same barbaric practices were prelevant much before the time of the Prophet. The only thing Bukhari and co. did was to moralize it in the minds of later generations.

Peace.

[mmkhan]

Salaam harris,

Salaam Khan,
Tats an excellent point... the verse clearly shows that those exact same barbaric practices were prelevant much before the time of the Prophet. The only thing Bukhari and co. did was to moralize it in the minds of later generations.

Peace.

True! Only Allah can guide us all to get on the correct path.

May Allah guide us all towards the correct path 
Mohammed M. Khan