Proof Holy Qur'an + "hadith" is Error!

[harris]

Salaam bros n sistas,

A picture speaks a thousand words. Therefore instead of indulging in never-ending arguments with those who disbelieve that the Holy Quraan alone can save us, I'd simply like the following pictures which showcase the state of affairs in our 'so-called' islamic world today, to speak for themselves.

I just have a single simple question though: If the present form of Islam practiced is the one true path that Allah almighty has prescribed, why is there so much violence, ignorance, poverty and hatred in the muslim world today?


Inshallah, may those who are able to think for themselves see the light.



There is good news for them in the life of this world and in the Hereafter. There is no changing the words of Allah. That is the great victory!
-Sura 10:64

Warning: images may be disturbing to some viewers.










http://www.theodoresworld.net/pcfreezone/ashura_day_two.jpg



http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/assets/library/081209nipeid--122882529717778700.jpg










http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/lo6uRwwnFH0/hqdefault.jpg

http://media.cleveland.com/nationworld_impact/photo/time-magazine-afghan-girl-nosejpg-353a12e38f89803a_large.jpg























http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_8t59jorH2DM/R0fHPEojnFI/AAAAAAAABNY/EOXmxfsUzpE/s400/Paul+Johnson+Beheading.jpg




http://angrywhitedude.com/wp-content/uploads2/2010/02/mmuslim-woman-beheaded.jpg



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~And the Messenger will say (on the Day of Judgment), "O my Lord, my people have rejected this Qur'an." -Sura 25:30~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


PEACE.


Moderator edit: added warning

[Yosemite]

put those gory image in spoilers or take them out

[Alen]

As salamu alaykum,
with all due Respect.

Brothers and sisters.
First we must do something about ourselves.
First I must correct myself. I'm really talking about me. Me, Alen.

First.
I must show the example.
I should and I must show an example of a muslim who follows The Qur'an, who obeys God according to The Qur'an and then, God willing, God knows BEST, people around me, all people, muslims and non-muslims, God willing, hopefully, will see, God willing, the difference between

A person who says s/he is a muslim and me.
I also say that I am a muslim.

But I hope that you will see what I'm saying here.
When people encounter me, they sometimes ask me if I am a muslim. I say that I am. They ask me why I don't have a beard or why do I shave. They ask me why I pray different, this, that, third, everything, they ask questions that might be even provocative or loaded with fear.
I tell them what I know according to The Qur'an. That is why I urge people at least on this forum to truly join us as soon and as fast as humanly possible at the next and all Quranic sessions, God willing, please.

Last year I was reading The Qur'an in the restaurant.
man approached and sat at my table and asked me, respectfully, how come I don't believe in The Bible but believe Qur'an and The Bible is older then The Qur'an.
I told him what I knew and know, Thank God. I said that The Qur'an confirms The Bible and when I follow Qur'an, I also follow The Bible. I started telling him the difference between the original Message of The Bible and that today's Bible isn't the real message, hence the seperation of the church and the state.
The guy was shocked. First and foremost when I told him that The Qur'an confirms The Bible. He looked like he never heard that. And he didn't. I would say all he hears is BBC.

See my point?
You and I brother Harris, should meet and several others and whoever can join us and we should make this community firm, firmer, send a message. Awhile back I was sugegsting an idea: to direct a movie. Brother, I'm still trying. I'm still at the beginning. But only because I'm alone here, fighting alone means winning slow. But don't worry. You and I follow The Qur'an and that is the most important. Thank God, Hvala Bogu, AlhamdilAllah. I'm glad I can be Grateful to God in three languages, Glory be to God, SubhanAllah, Slava Bogu.

If you got time, brother Harris, send me pm and we can meet to discuss a plan to make our community not only stronger but such that people will be able to tell the difference between muslims and people who only give lip service. Oh, I'm a muslim, oh, I'm a jewish, oh, I'm a christian, oh, I'm an actor, Well, I'm an actress, I got beautiful eyes, well, I'm a cleaner at the Warner Brothers, I got keys to the major studios.

Yeah, I can also be blonde, I can have a tatto, I can eat a duck and also, I can hack into someone's pc. These are just words. Actions speak louder then words.

No disrespect to anyone.
Peace and Blessings be upon you all.

[mmkhan]

Salaaman brother Harris,

There is good news for them in the life of this world and in the Hereafter. There is no changing the words of Allah. That is the great victory!
-Sura 10:64

Thanks for the awakening aayat.

I understood what you are trying to say, but brother, most of the images are very disturbing. Please either add a big warning message [so that people may leave before seeing those images] or remove some of the images.

May Allah help us all on each and every step we take.
Mohammed M. Khan

[Ayisha]

Salam bro harris,

Now I become your fan. 

Excellent message, horrific way to do it, point driven clear and direct.

Your entire post should be in poster form including the signature.

[Mushu]

I don't agree with the reasoning here.

When I was a sunni, I didn't cut off anyone's head.  Nor was I violent or aggressive to anyone in any way, and sunni Islam didn't teach me to be either.

If, Allah forbid, tomorrow we found out some lunatic Quran only people in some obscure part of the world started killing people, would you ask:

"If the Quran only form of Islam practiced is the one true path that Allah almighty has prescribed, why is there so much violence, ignorance, poverty and hatred in the Quran only world today?"

What is achieved with this type of rhetoric?  Nothing.

99% of the problems in the muslim world are to do with economics and politics.  Religion is used in these societies as a weapon of control and aggression.  It has almost nothing to do with "authentic" of "acceptable" practises of traditional Islam.  Where Islam is most violent and harmful is where there is mass illiteracy, low life expectancy and crippling economic conditions, usually as a result of colonialism or regional conflicts.

Showing posters of violence and associating it with Islam is what the media does, and is an insult to the millions of peaceful and concerned traditional Muslims around the world.

[mmkhan]

Salaam,

I don't agree with the reasoning here.

When I was a sunni, I didn't cut off anyone's head.  Nor was I violent or aggressive to anyone in any way, and sunni Islam didn't teach me to be either.

If, Allah forbid, tomorrow we found out some lunatic Quran only people in some obscure part of the world started killing people, would you ask:

"If the Quran only form of Islam practiced is the one true path that Allah almighty has prescribed, why is there so much violence, ignorance, poverty and hatred in the Quran only world today?"

What is achieved with this type of rhetoric?  Nothing.

99% of the problems in the muslim world are to do with economics and politics.  Religion is used in these societies as a weapon of control and aggression.  It has almost nothing to do with "authentic" of "acceptable" practises of traditional Islam.  Where Islam is most violent and harmful is where there is mass illiteracy, low life expectancy and crippling economic conditions, usually as a result of colonialism or regional conflicts.

Showing posters of violence and associating it with Islam is what the media does, and is an insult to the millions of peaceful and concerned traditional Muslims around the world.

I agree with Mushu.

It depends upon an individual. One could be a peacemaker or else in any of the religions in the world, not only in so called Muslims.

May Allah open our hearts to understand the Truth.
Mohammed M. Khan

[alienayt]

These 'Muslims' probably follow The Sunnah & Shariah Law which in my opinion isn't really Islam.

[Badr]

You are mixing everything with these images, pure propaganda swollower, you aint helping no one with that.

[Prince]

I don't agree with the reasoning here.

When I was a sunni, I didn't cut off anyone's head.  Nor was I violent or aggressive to anyone in any way, and sunni Islam didn't teach me to be either.

If, Allah forbid, tomorrow we found out some lunatic Quran only people in some obscure part of the world started killing people, would you ask:

"If the Quran only form of Islam practiced is the one true path that Allah almighty has prescribed, why is there so much violence, ignorance, poverty and hatred in the Quran only world today?"

What is achieved with this type of rhetoric?  Nothing.

99% of the problems in the muslim world are to do with economics and politics.  Religion is used in these societies as a weapon of control and aggression.  It has almost nothing to do with "authentic" of "acceptable" practises of traditional Islam.  Where Islam is most violent and harmful is where there is mass illiteracy, low life expectancy and crippling economic conditions, usually as a result of colonialism or regional conflicts.

Showing posters of violence and associating it with Islam is what the media does, and is an insult to the millions of peaceful and concerned traditional Muslims around the world.

Spot on brother. I don't agree with the reasoning here simply because being 'muslim' isn't a title you carry around but a descriptive term.

A picture does speak a thousand words but unfortunately a picture cannot tell you the truth but only what you want to see as the truth. Debates are a sensible form of discerning the truth from falsehood.

PEACE

[Alen]

As salamu alaykum,
with all due Respect, sisters and brothers.

I agree here with others, brother.
These images are from the people who are not following The Qur'an.
What you and I know - and others - is completely different. God Knows BEST.

I especially agree with brother Mushu.
I mean, these specific individuals not only exist all over the world, in every country.
In Slovenia, we have Zmago Jelincic, a "christian" (lip service) who is against muslims and building of the 1st mosque there.
In Croatia, they had a president who was prounouncing the word muslim wrongly on purpose.
In Bosnia they have people who call themselves chetniks and they openly hate muslims. (christian orthodox....not).
In Serbia they had a president who ended up in Hague EU jail for mass murderer, Slobodan Milosevic, he died hating muslims.
In UK we have certain people who truly hate muslims.

I mean, brothers and sisters, what I'm saying here is this: in every country, in every religion, on every continent, literary - on Earth: we have people who hate and people who love, this or that and whatever they think of. God Knows BEST.
This does not mean that chrsitian orthodox are bad people or that muslims are bad people or that Sloevenes are bad people just because one person from their line said something or did something that was against us.

An American wanted to burn a copy of The Qur'an. Does that mean that 300,000,000 Americans hate muslims? Old people? Pregnant women? Children? What about people in USA who accept Islam because they see something like ban the burqa in the news or they see a man who has never shaved in his life and this convert now wants to know where in The Qur'an does God order that or why and I think, I believe that we need to get together and start not only having more Quranic sessions, God willing, but we need to talk about this to at least one person a week about this, God willing.

One person who lives truly, really far away and has no access to info/intel like we do.

God knows BEST.
Glory be to God.
Peace.

[Ayisha]

I fully agree with everyone who has said 'this is not Islam' in one way or another and that the problems of the world, or Islamic world, are down to politics BUT the point I think harris was trying to make was that although WE may say this is not Islam and even many sunni would say this is not Islam, this IS what 'the western world' SEE as Islam. This is what is portrayed in the media everywhere and this is what CAN be picked out from hadith and even Quran in the verses referring to fighting. Those people in those pics ARE Muslims and they ARE doing these things and they ARE saying to MASSACRE anyone who insults Islam, so no freedom of speech, no freedom of thought for ANYONE. If this kind of thing carries on another say 50-100 years than this WILL BE ISLAM.

[Alen]

I fully agree with everyone who has said 'this is not Islam' in one way or another and that the problems of the world, or Islamic world, are down to politics BUT the point I think harris was trying to make was that although WE may say this is not Islam and even many sunni would say this is not Islam, this IS what 'the western world' SEE as Islam. This is what is portrayed in the media everywhere and this is what CAN be picked out from hadith and even Quran in the verses referring to fighting. Those people in those pics ARE Muslims and they ARE doing these things and they ARE saying to MASSACRE anyone who insults Islam, so no freedom of speech, no freedom of thought for ANYONE. If this kind of thing carries on another say 50-100 years than this WILL BE ISLAM.

As salamu alaykum,
with all due Respect.

I agree with you.
I see your point and I believe we must do something positive in order to stop this now and here and dgo the other way, the way towards The Real islam, to The True Teachings of The Qur'an and I mean right now. I mean like Now and Here.

Of course, I am just one person in London and there are few others but what can be done?

I am willing to help in a way to create Peace.
God knows BEST.



Peace.

[Badr]

As salamu alaykum,
with all due Respect.

I agree with you.
I see your point and I believe we must do something positive in order to stop this now and here and dgo the other way, the way towards The Real islam, to The True Teachings of The Qur'an and I mean right now. I mean like Now and Here.

Of course, I am just one person in London and there are few others but what can be done?

I am willing to help in a way to create Peace.
God knows BEST.



Peace.

The media love to show these images and theres thousands of muslims doing the right thing but the media will never portray them because they want to keep that image of islam and not the peaceful one.

[CavemanDoctor]

Harris,

In the future, please do not put gory images in your post.  I realize you put a general warning at the beginning but that is not enough.  Some users view these threads while at work, or around children, etc.  I edited your post to leave the url's but took the embedded images out.

[Alen]

The media love to show these images and theres thousands of muslims doing the right thing but the media will never portray them because they want to keep that image of islam and not the peaceful one.

As salamu alaykum,
with all due Respect.

Is it possible that the media in the Middle East is portraying positive image of muslims/Islam/The Qur'an and we're not seeing that? God knows Best.

Peace.

[harris]

Assalamalaikum,

peace to every believer and submitter. And may ALLAH guide the rest of us.

Glad to see so many varied responses regarding the snapshots that make up 'news' in the world media today. Many thanks to Aisha and Alen for their constant support. Apologies if some of the images were too gory for anybody here. But the truth remains, this is the "image" of Islam today, whether some of us would like to accept it or not.

That brings us to the question, who is responsible for this sorry state of affairs today? I see some brothers here quick to point out that this is 'propoganda'... i presume they mean by zionists... lol. wish that were the case.

Is the world media to blame for the following?
- the murderous hatred between shias and sunnis: For those living comfortably in the safety of western democracy, you've no idea about the situation still going on in ground zero. Everything from politics to economics is based on this great divide. Not to mention the hatred towards the ?kafirs?.

- the level of ignorance and backwardness in science and technology: Admit it, the west ie. christians and jews are light years ahead. why? because they provide an environment that promotes creative thinking through the rule of law and modern education. Even we educated muslims would not be here to discuss these issues if it were not for western education. Every modern scientific breakthrough from space travel to  touch screen phones and open heart surgery is a result of this (even the computer you are reading this from)



-the poverty levels in muslim nations: without oil from below the earth, how many muslim nations can be economically compared to the developed nations of the world? US, China and Japan are not the world?s biggest economies without reason.  They have worked hard to improve their quality of life.



http://www.submission.org/hadith/islamglowgloom.html

"I'll end by telling a story. There was once a civilization that was the greatest in the world. It was able to create a continental super-state that stretched from ocean to ocean, and from northern climes to tropics and deserts. Within its dominion lived hundreds of millions of people, of different creeds and ethnic origins. One of its languages became the universal language of much of the world, the bridge between the peoples of a hundred lands. Its armies were made up of people of many nationalities, and its military protection allowed a degree of peace and prosperity that had never been known.

And this civilization was driven more than anything, by invention. Its architects designed buildings that defied gravity. Its mathematicians created the algebra and algorithms that would enable the building of computers, and the creation of encryption. Its doctors examined the human body, and found new cures for disease. Its astronomers looked into the heavens, named the stars, and paved the way for space travel and exploration. Its writers created thousands of stories. Stories of courage, romance and magic.

When other nations were afraid of ideas, this civilization thrived on them, and kept them alive. When censors threatened to wipe out knowledge from past civilizations, this civilization kept the knowledge alive, and passed it on to others. While modern Western civilization shares many of these traits, the civilization I'm talking about was the Islamic world from the year 800, which included the Ottoman Empire and the courts of Baghdad, Damascus and Cairo, and enlightened rulers like Suleiman the Magnificent. (when muslims started living their lives by the HOLY QURAN)



In the beginning, Islam flourished because of its emphasis on "good in this world" (Koran-2:201). But the Mullah's came up with the sermon that no worldly improvement has God's blessings. This world is merely a temporary shelter for us for our onward journey to hereafter. All Muslims were encouraged to devote most of their times in madrasas and mosques for continuous prayer for pleasing God.(They started devoting their lives to understanding and living by the hadiths) Within a few generations, these self-defeating teachings in the name of Islam got deeply rooted in the Muslims' minds. While the Koranic verses describe God as "beneficent and merciful", the Mullahs perceived and portrayed God as an intolerant ruler even for slightest deviation in praising Him. A deep belief engulfed them that nothing could be achieved without the blessings of God.



They overemphasised the need for God's blessings in accomplishing things and de-emphasised the need for doing the things themselves. The virgin 'hooris' were perceived as the thrill in the Heaven than the thrill in invention for the good of all people. Gradually, a lethargic community that thrived on living behind the system grew up. And sadly this is the community of the Muslim ummah we see today.




End of story. Guess I've made my point crystal clear.

Peace to all. May we be guided in the right path. ALLAH knows best.

[Alen]

As salamu alaykum,
with all due Respect.

I agree with you, brother Harris and you're right but what can one do to get out of this state?
I know people who try to move from step 01 to step 02 and it takes them years and they're still on thep 01.
I would say that - I will speak for myself only - I must hold on to The Qur'an more and more, more strongly, I must follow it better and ponder even more, God willing.

Brother Harris, thanks for reminder.
The photos you have provided are thought-provoking and person starts to think.
God Bless you,
God Bless you all.

Peace.

[Faithful-Jinn]

Salam brothers and sisters

I agree that the Islamic world in the East and in Africa is in a state of poverty and ignorance right now.

But I do not believe the answer lies in saying that those who follow only the Qur'an practice true Islam or that Sunnis or Shias as collective ideologies are to blame. A Muslim is a Muslim whether they follow the hadith or not and I know there are millions of Muslims out there that are more faithful and pious than I.

We cannot say there is only one way to follow Islam. While I consider myself one who follows the Qur'an and do not feel obligated to put myself under the authority of hadith I do not believe there is not wisdom in some hadith nor do I think that the way I practice Islam is the exclusive interpretation. We as believers cannot claim a monopoly on true Islam. This is what many Sunnis have been doing for centuries they have attempted to monopolize the interpretation of the faith labeling all dissenters as kafirs. This is why Islam broke into originally and continues to split into sects because many people think their Islam is the only Islam.

What I also see is that many use Islam as a political and social tool to control the people. I believe the only way to get around this is to get away from this hierarchical form where the scholars and clerics have the right to tell the common people how to follow the Qur'an. While I don't see any problem with imams, ayatollahs, and whatnot giving opinions, a fatwa is not law, it is simply an opinion. And even we common people have the right to our own opinions. I don't believe it takes years of studying classical Arabic for someone to have the knowledge and authority to interpret the Qur'an for themselves. The thing about the Qur'an is it is universal and eternal and meant for all ages so why should I, a young American in the west, be forced to interpreting it like an 8th century man from the Arabian peninsula?

But I digress, I have no problem if someone wants to sport a kufa and a thobe. More power to them may God grant them grace because of it. The thing is though that we as Muslims should not be pointing fingers but joining hands and working toward our COMMON causes. Why in this day and age are people still hungry? Why are people still being persecuted because of their race, tribe, language, or faith? Why are people still being discriminated against on every continent for some reason or another? Whoever started this topic is right something has definitely gotta change why are young Muslim boys and girls around the world still illiterate and forced to work. Women aren't allowed to drive cars or go outside without a male family member. Young poor boys are joining militias being told they will go directly to heaven if they blow themselves up or fight against the Western infidels. Something has got to change.

The fact of the matter is though like someone else pointed our before is the change begins with ourselves. We can sit on our computers and talk all day about what should and shouldn't be done but the revolution will begin in our own personal lives. Be the change you want to see and pray that your light shines on others. I will continue to strive toward Truth, God forbid if I stray on the way there.

[Mushu]

But the truth remains, this is the "image" of Islam today, whether some of us would like to accept it or not.

That's not the image I have of Islam today.  Who's image is that?  Oh right, the image portrayed by the media, which you are projecting upon global "Islam".  That's not very clever, is it?

That brings us to the question, who is responsible for this sorry state of affairs today? I see some brothers here quick to point out that this is 'propoganda'... i presume they mean by zionists...

There's no need for presumptions, it was explicitly stated, at least by me.  The sorry state of affairs comes from politics, economics and regional conflicts.  Care to refute that?

Is the world media to blame for the following?
- the murderous hatred between shias and sunnis: For those living comfortably in the safety of western democracy, you've no idea about the situation still going on in ground zero. Everything from politics to economics is based on this great divide. Not to mention the hatred towards the ?kafirs?.

You haven't told us why they hate each other.  Before you do, take into account that the Kurds and the Sunnis are also killing each other, despite both being Sunnis.  Why is that?  No, the media is not to blame, but neither is the religion of these Iraqis.  If you know anything about history, you will know that the middle east was deliberately cut up by the British to keep people divided and in a perpetual state of conflict.  Who created the country known today as Iraq with its borders?

- the level of ignorance and backwardness in science and technology: Admit it, the west ie. christians and jews are light years ahead. why?

Because after they freed themselves from the grip of the Church they proceeded to butcher up the rest of the world in some form or other.  It's very easy to get a headstart in science and technology when you have plenty of wealth to feed your population by making other brown people subservient to you.  If you're suggesting that traditional Islam is to blame for the illiteracy and lack of technological advancements, perhaps you could explain why Muslims were so ahead of the game during the "golden era"?  How come Islam didn't stop their intellectualism and innovations back then? If you can answer that question, perhaps you will think again before blaming the religion of these people for their current misfortunes.

-the poverty levels in muslim nations: without oil from below the earth, how many muslim nations can be economically compared to the developed nations of the world? US, China and Japan are not the world?s biggest economies without reason.  They have worked hard to improve their quality of life.

Without having wiped out the natives, and built their economy using black people, would US be economically developed?  And there is plenty of poverty in China.

Again, your being utterly ignorant of wider geo-political factors to why muslim countries are the way they are.  Do some studying.

In the beginning, Islam flourished because of its emphasis on "good in this world" (Koran-2:201). But the Mullah's came up with the sermon that no worldly improvement has God's blessings. This world is merely a temporary shelter for us for our onward journey to hereafter. All Muslims were encouraged to devote most of their times in madrasas and mosques for continuous prayer for pleasing God.(They started devoting their lives to understanding and living by the hadiths) Within a few generations, these self-defeating teachings in the name of Islam got deeply rooted in the Muslims' minds. While the Koranic verses describe God as "beneficent and merciful", the Mullahs perceived and portrayed God as an intolerant ruler even for slightest deviation in praising Him. A deep belief engulfed them that nothing could be achieved without the blessings of God.

They overemphasised the need for God's blessings in accomplishing things and de-emphasised the need for doing the things themselves. The virgin 'hooris' were perceived as the thrill in the Heaven than the thrill in invention for the good of all people. Gradually, a lethargic community that thrived on living behind the system grew up. And sadly this is the community of the Muslim ummah we see today.

Bullshit.  Go do some research.  Islamic formalism started within 300 years of the Prophet's death, yet scientific and cultural innovations continued well into the Ottoman Empire.  People were blindly following madhabs from the time of Shafi'i, yet the ummah still produced the likes of Al Biruni and Ibn Rushd long after.  You inexplicably end your story at the time of the Ottomans but forget to mention the European invasions and the subsequent divide and conquer tactics, colonialism and rape of the muslim people.  Did that have anything to do with the condition of "Muslim ummah we see today"?

End of story. Guess I've made my point crystal clear.

Yea, that you're an idiot.

What your posts have demonstrated is that you are a sectarian.  What happened is that you came to this forum and figured that it would be a good idea to pat yourself on the back, congratulate yourself on being "quran alone" and post some stupidness in the form of painting traditional Islam as the "other" in the hope of getting a round of applause.  And yes, some people feel just like you and have a sectarian mindset and praised you for this display of ignorance.  But your waffling wouldn't have fooled everyone.

If you're serious about figuring out why the muslim countries are in such a state, I suggest you do some proper research. 

[harris]

Salaam bros n sistas,
May the blessings of Allah almighty be on all of you.

Unfortunately I see here a post by someone who seems to be very very angry. He seems to be so upset that he has even gone to the extent of abusing me.
Sad that life must be so very tough for him to release his frustrations like this. I pray, things get better for him  


Now since he has taken the pain to carefully comment on each line of my post and surely EXPECTS me to personally do the same, I shall, GOD willing entertain him    

If you know anything about history, you will know that the middle east was deliberately cut up by the British to keep people divided and in a perpetual state of conflict.  

Now wait a minute there... this is your answer to the problem of the SHIA-SUNNI split? Are u suggesting that the British are the culprits for this grand old divide??
Wonder if u mean the white men from the british isles killed Imam Ali and Hussein more than a thousand years back just to make sure muslims fight among themselves!!! woww, sherlock you've solved the case     (That's the funniest $#!^ i've heard in a long time.)
The shia sunni division is a catastrophe that would never have arose if every muslim really followed the message of the Holy Quran. If this split never happened, the muslim ummah would have been invincible by any outside force. In the words of philosopher Will Durant: ?A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within.?  People like u just try to wish this reality away and blame all the problems that followed on outsiders.

Because after they freed themselves from the grip of the Church they proceeded to butcher up the rest of the world in some form or other.  It's very easy to get a headstart in science and technology when you have plenty of wealth to feed your population by making other brown people subservient to you.  If you're suggesting that traditional Islam is to blame for the illiteracy and lack of technological advancements, perhaps you could explain why Muslims were so ahead of the game during the "golden era"?  How come Islam didn't stop their intellectualism and innovations back then? If you can answer that question, perhaps you will think again before blaming the religion of these people for their current misfortunes.

That's such a GREAT INTELLIGENT question... I'm just stumped. I've no idea, how to reply to this..... Wat...wat will I do??  

One word- Wahabism. The Muslims were intellectually ahead of their times as long as they didn't fall into satan's hadith inspired wahabi form of islam which only motivates hatred and closed minds. (And since you seem to believe you're a history teacher, plz checkout how late the salafi/ wahabi teachings really started its influence.) Till then, these hadiths never had a potent effect on the muslim ummah exactly because those people knew just how little importance it deserved in their daily lives. If U do some research, you'd know that before wahabi islam took over, muslims were free to explore the truth in several forms, in their own way. How else did sufism and all the great poets of old come into existence? Heard of any inspiring literature after the wahabi take over?

It was Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab?s extremist views and doctrines that lead to the military campaign shaking the Arabian Peninsula to its core. The Wahhabi faith provided Ibn Sa?ud with the justification he needed to raid and conquer all lands. Though many of these lands were Islamic (and traditional Islamic law prohibits Islamic states from attacking each other), the Wahhabi doctrine viewed all non-Wahhabists as infidels and not true Muslims. The same Britishers U blame were used much later by the Wahabis to take back Mecca in 1932.

Without having wiped out the natives, and built their economy using black people, would US be economically developed?

Err... so you saying that its the black slaves of old America that are responsible for the US becoming a super-power? I just love your fantastic theories.....   So Edison, Ford, Wright bros, Abe Lincoln and all the other thousand great minds were jst part of media propoganda ryt?   Okkkk, if U say so...

You inexplicably end your story at the time of the Ottomans but forget to mention the European invasions and the subsequent divide and conquer tactics, colonialism and rape of the muslim people.  Did that have anything to do with the condition of "Muslim ummah we see today"?

I've not forgotten to mention anythin man..... U have only once again proved my point with shining stars... What u've forgotten is sura 9:14, 9:123 and 22:39 from the Holy Quran.

~Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people, (Quran 9:14)

~O you who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who are the Al-Muttaqoon. (Quran 9:123)

~Permission to fight is given to those (i.e. believers against disbelievers), who are fighting them, and because the believers have been wronged, and surely, Allah is Able to give the believers victory (Quran 22:39)

One simple question Mr. Smarty, if as you say those Muslims were indeed pious and true submitters, why did Allah almighty give power to the Europeans to fight and gain victory over the 'muslims'? Why did He not side with them like He did for the Prophet? Allah almighty assures every true believer that victory is theirs and yet the Europeans conquered the muslim lands... unbelievable  

Either U reject the verses above in the Holy Quran, OR u accept that those defeated were not really true believers. I rest my case.

Yea, that you're an idiot.

Wat the fish! U tat frustrated? No idea why the abusive language. You've got issues man. Better to get it checked soon.  As the name of the site 'freeminds' explains itself, everyone's entitled to their opinion. if u've got a prob with that, then this really aint your joint  

And yes, some people feel just like you and have a sectarian mindset and praised you for this display of ignorance.  But your waffling wouldn't have fooled everyone.

Congratulations. You're un-foolable.

If you're serious about figuring out why the muslim countries are in such a state, I suggest you do some proper research.  

Ok for your kind information, regarding myself: I LIVE in the Middle-east. Was born here and have lived my whole life in this region (except for 4 years).. So plz don't lecture me abt research and feeding me nonsense your local mullah feeds u.


In conclusion, thanks for the history lesson man. One piece of advice: Since I've jst found the hard way that my posts drive you wild, its better for both you and me if you'd refrain from reading this 'idiot's' future posts. That way u'd remain sane and i'd be at peace. Hopefully this will be my last reply to your comments as I have no interest in this exchange of words.


Peace. Respect.
A muslim bro,
Harris.

[san]

Should i take the two above posts as images of your intelligent personalities in the middle of an exchange? Btw, you two consider yourselves muslims, right? So much for ...

"Peace".

[harris]

Should i take the two above posts as images of your intelligent personalities in the middle of an exchange? Btw, you two consider yourselves muslims, right? So much for ...

"Peace".

yeah... such childish behavior... should feel ashamed!   

[SarahY]

Extremism in any form is stupid.

Those images are not a true representation of mainstreamers.

Nothing wrong with hadith in a general sense, people take good from everywhere. divine law is something else.

Each to their own. lakom deenakom waliya deen.

[Mushu]

Now wait a minute there... this is your answer to the problem of the SHIA-SUNNI split? Are u suggesting that the British are the culprits for this grand old divide??

Now wait a minute, why did you not answer my question regarding why Arab and Kurdish Sunnis are killing each other as well in Iraq?  Since you've already had the chance to answer this and you haven't, and from the declaration that you are no longer interested in continuing this discussion, it's safe to assume you haven't got an answer.  That's hardly surprising.  Let me make this easier for you - which hadith are the Arab and Kurdish sunnis using to justify killing each other?  You should be able to answer this given that you've made the claim that hadith is the reason for the violence there.

Wonder if u mean the white men from the british isles killed Imam Ali and Hussein more than a thousand years back just to make sure muslims fight among themselves!!! woww, sherlock you've solved the case  laugh  laugh (That's the funniest $#!^ i've heard in a long time.)

Wonder if you know anything of sunni-shia relationships elsewhere in the world?  Have you heard of a place called the sub-continent?  Do sunnis and shiites butcher each other in those places too?  In Bangladesh, for instance.  If not, why not?  Are they not following the same hadith as the Iraqis?

People like u just try to wish this reality away and blame all the problems that followed on outsiders.

People like you cannot see anything that's not placed in front of their noses. 

One word- Wahabism.

Another word - bullshit.

The Muslims were intellectually ahead of their times as long as they didn't fall into satan's hadith inspired wahabi form of islam which only motivates hatred and closed minds.

Blah blah.  See how the argument's now changed?  You started off claiming hadith was the problem.  Now it's the Wahhabis.  If you admit that pre-wahhabi islam allowed for cultural innovations, why are you suggesting hadith are the cause for the condition of muslims today?  Majority of muslims today are not wahhabis, so your argument (if you can even call this drivel an argument) falls flat on its face.

Err... so you saying that its the black slaves of old America that are responsible for the US becoming a super-power?

Yes.  And the fact that it was a colony of the British Empire.  Did you know that?  But that would only make sense to someone who understands that economic growth begins from establishing infrastructure through labour.

I've not forgotten to mention anythin man..... U have only once again proved my point with shining stars... What u've forgotten is sura 9:14, 9:123 and 22:39 from the Holy Quran.

One simple question Mr. Smarty, if as you say those Muslims were indeed pious and true submitters, why did Allah almighty give power to the Europeans to fight and gain victory over the 'muslims'?

One simple counter question Mr. Ignoramus, where did I say those Muslims were indeed pious and true submitters?  Do I detect a straw-man?  Yes, I think I do.

Your "story" blamed hadith and formalism for the stagnation of Islamic thought which is utterly false.  Innovations went well into the Ottoman Empire by which time madhabbism and hadith were strong.  If hadith really is the cause for today's misery, why did it not stop the Muslims right up to the European invasions from innovating?  And why has no innovation happened since those invasions?  Oh right, yea wahhabism...

Wat the fish! U tat frustrated? No idea why the abusive language. You've got issues man. Better to get it checked soon.  As the name of the site 'freeminds' explains itself, everyone's entitled to their opinion. if u've got a prob with that, then this really aint your joint  voodoo

Frustrated?  Hardly, just stating my opinion that you're an idiot.  That could be wrong, but I see no evidence for it.  Obviously you have no idea why I would take exception to you blaming the hugely complex problems faced by muslims all over the world to their religious inclinations.

Ok for your kind information, regarding myself: I LIVE in the Middle-east.

You actually LIVE in a pool of ignorance.

Was born here and have lived my whole life in this region (except for 4 years)..

Fat lot of good that did you, eh?  You still come with your simplistic and primitive understanding of world and historical events.  I take it you get Western media where you live? 

Where you live is irrelevant.  If you're serious, go and do some reading.  You will find that sweeping generalisations and blaming hadith literature for the problems in the muslim world is stupid.  Stop doing it because it's falsehood.

So plz don't lecture me abt research and feeding me nonsense your local mullah feeds u.

Lol, kind of ironic that the guy who at first blamed hadith for the world's ills who then went and changed it to wahhabism but then couldn't explain why two groups of sunnis were killing each other would warn me about 'feeding nonsense'.  And my local mullahs are sunnis, so I don't listen to them.

In conclusion, thanks for the history lesson man. One piece of advice:

You're in no position to give anyone advice.  You're the guy that blamed hadith for Arab and Kurdish sunnis killing each other... or was that wahhabism? 

You posted several pictures of violence and oppression and suggested that they come about from hadith literature.  You were gently and politely told by more than one person that your opening post was stupid, that the reasoning was false and the rhetoric flawed. Instead of taking heed and displaying some intelligence, you followed up with another stupid post and somehow managed to mention zionism(!).  And now you're upset that you've been called out?  You're surprised that some quran-only guy isn't hugging your balls? 

I'll state it again: you are a sectarian.  You're mindest is that of us vs them.  You came here looking for people to re-affirm this sentiment for you.  You reduced a wide spectrum of religious thought to violence and oppression by using one common denominator: hadith.

its better for both you and me if you'd refrain from reading this 'idiot's' future posts. That way u'd remain sane and i'd be at peace.

It would be better for both you, me and everyone else if you'd stop your bullshit.  That way I wouldn't have to expose you, and you could save face. 

Stop abusing other people's religion by attributing violence and oppression to their scriptures.  It's rude, unhelpful and the path of the idiot.

[Bigmo]

yeah... such childish behavior... should feel ashamed!   

I think there is some truth to what you said. Many of these acts are commited by groups who think this is Islam and for good reason. Because many of these acts are sanctioned by Sunni and Shia Islam. They give the "ruler" divine authority over all matters. he has the power of life and death and he can not be held accountable. Most Muslims may not be aware of what these sects preach and teach.

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598734.0

I have talked about the hadiths that inspires the terrorist.

[harris]

I think there is some truth to what you said. Many of these acts are commited by groups who think this is Islam and for good reason. Because many of these acts are sanctioned by Sunni and Shia Islam. They give the "ruler" divine authority over all matters. he has the power of life and death and he can not be held accountable. Most Muslims may not be aware of what these sects preach and teach.

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598734.0

I have talked about the hadiths that inspires the terrorist.

The Prophet sent (some people) in their pursuit and so they were (caught and) brought, and the Prophets ordered that their hands and legs should be cut off and that their eyes should be branded with heated pieces of iron, and that their cut hands and legs should not be cauterized, till they die. Bukhari

Salaam Bigmo,
Thanks for the link... Unbelievable, how much violence some of those hadiths propogate... the above hadith you have shown in the link alone is enough to prove that those who follow them are lead into the wrong path... The messenger of Allah could NEVER have given such inhuman instructions.

Inshallah, only He can lead the believers to the straight path.

Peace.

[mmkhan]

Salaam,

The Prophet sent (some people) in their pursuit and so they were (caught and) brought, and the Prophets ordered that their hands and legs should be cut off and that their eyes should be branded with heated pieces of iron, and that their cut hands and legs should not be cauterized, till they die. Bukhari

This cannot be Prophet but that could be Phiraun or Bukhari:

20:70 فألقي السحرة سجدا قالوا ءامنا برب هرون وموسى
20:71    قال ءامنتم له قبل أن ءاذن لكم إنه لكبيركم الذي علمكم السحر فلأقطعن أيديكم وأرجلكم من خلف ولأصلبنكم في جذوع النخل ولتعلمن أينا أشد عذابا وأبقى

20:70    So the magicians went down in prostration. They said: We believe in the Lord of Aaron and Moses.
20:71    He said: Have you believed to him before taking my permission? He is surely your great one who has taught you magic. So, I will cut off your hands and feet from alternate sides, and I will crucify you on the trunks of the palm trees, and you will come to know which of us is greater in retribution and more lasting!



May Allah guide us all towards the Truth.
Mohammed M. Khan

[harris]

Salaam,

This cannot be Prophet but that could be Phiraun or Bukhari:

20:70 فألقي السحرة سجدا قالوا ءامنا برب هرون وموسى
20:71    قال ءامنتم له قبل أن ءاذن لكم إنه لكبيركم الذي علمكم السحر فلأقطعن أيديكم وأرجلكم من خلف ولأصلبنكم في جذوع النخل ولتعلمن أينا أشد عذابا وأبقى

20:70    So the magicians went down in prostration. They said: We believe in the Lord of Aaron and Moses.
20:71    He said: Have you believed to him before taking my permission? He is surely your great one who has taught you magic. So, I will cut off your hands and feet from alternate sides, and I will crucify you on the trunks of the palm trees, and you will come to know which of us is greater in retribution and more lasting!



May Allah guide us all towards the Truth.
Mohammed M. Khan

Salaam Khan,
Tats an excellent point... the verse clearly shows that those exact same barbaric practices were prelevant much before the time of the Prophet. The only thing Bukhari and co. did was to moralize it in the minds of later generations.

Peace.

[mmkhan]

Salaam harris,

Salaam Khan,
Tats an excellent point... the verse clearly shows that those exact same barbaric practices were prelevant much before the time of the Prophet. The only thing Bukhari and co. did was to moralize it in the minds of later generations.

Peace.

True! Only Allah can guide us all to get on the correct path.

May Allah guide us all towards the correct path 
Mohammed M. Khan