9/11 was an outside job

[Magnus]

salaam

herbman, that is a perfect example of the type of posting I tried to discourage in the original post. Posting links and saying "no comment" is not a constructive way to have a discussion.

I would much rather hear what you find interesting in that film and what conclusions you think can be drawn from it, or something of that nature.

[herbman]

Peace,

The video speaks about a witness beeing in WTC7, the building has collapsed like the twin tower some minutes after the twin tower.

Problem:
if they lie about what happened in that building, they can lie about what happened in the twin towers, or anywhere else.

Ok the building was holding "secret services", so they had to desmolish it to avoid people discovering "files".  So how they knew they will be a terrorist attack on that day?

Search for Giulliani comments on you tube, same problem he knew something was going on before the attacks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ou4MakVHCYc

So either they are some kinds of medium, either they lie.  Choose what best fits in your minds.

If they had nothing to hide why refusing invistigations, this is a common behaviour in democracy; when somthing goes wrong they do a commission to investigate what went wrong and what can be improved to avoid this to happen again?

Peace

[Magnus]

salaam.

People lie all the time for all kinds of reasons - sometimes just to seem more interesting to others, sometimes in order to cover something up. Where I feel you go off the deep end is in assuming that this "something" they are trying to hide must necessarily be the most massive criminal conspiracy of all time.

people lie, cheat, steal, slack off on the job, and do all kinds of things they don't want publicly known. People trying to stop other people finding their dirty secrets isn't a good indication of the presence of a massive conspiracy.

Let me give you a concrete example:
A lot of swedish nationals got killed or injured in the Boxing Day tsunami in south-east Asia. The swedish government didn't handle this crisis very well, and the response was slow and inadequate. An investigation that was initially opposed revealed all sorts of human failings and incompetence, including a man with an important job to do who couldn't be reached because he was busy cheating on his wife.

[herbman]

Peace,

I understand your point.

Ok let's talk about facts only, no conjectures or whatever.

Do you think twin towers collapsed only because of the fire?
--> if yes, case is closed.  Hijakers did it.
--> if no, there there should be something else. What kind?  I don't know.

For your info, a group of expert engineers, demolition specialist, physicians etc... demonstrated that a building cannot fall at speed of gravity by itself unless the basement breaks, however the towers burned from the top, not from the bottom.  This is a fact.

Peace

[Magnus]

salaam

a group of expert engineers, demolition specialist, physicians etc... demonstrated that a building cannot fall at speed of gravity by itself unless the basement breaks, however the towers burned from the top, not from the bottom.  This is a fact.

It may or may not be true that a building cannot fall at freefall speed (9.82m/s/s). I would argue that the twin towers fell significantly slower than that though.
Look at this picture:



What you are seeing is sections of the building that have broken loose and are falling freely towards the ground. If we discount any air resistance they would fall at free-fall speed. Since there is air in New York, they must fall a little slower than that. However, the interesting part is that they fall faster than the cloud of debris above, in which other parts of the building, falling slower still, are present. We just can't see them because there is debris in the way.
I think those who claim that the towers fell freely are stopping their clocks when the first chunks (like the ones in the picture) hit the ground. It's pretty hard to define what is actually part of the building and what isn't in such a chaotic event as the collapse of a super sky scraper, but large, loose pieces falling the fastest is clear proof that other pieces fell slower, i.e. not at free-fall.

While I think the fires softening the steel were by far the most important factor in the collapses of the towers, it's probably safe to assume that the impacts of the planes cut, bent or otherwise damaged some of the columns holding the structures upright.

[Prince]

salaamso what do you think is the other side of this story?

the governments of this world do plenty of cover-ups to hide their dirty deeds, and I don't think anyone in this thread has claimed otherwise. What I wonder is what makes you believe any goventment, the U.S govt included, would actually be competent enough to pull off something as insanely complicated as that yet-to-be-articulated conspiratorial chain of events on 9/11 would necessarily need to be, leaving no evidence, no witnesses, no leaks...  
Knife wielding suicide pilots just seem so much more plausible.

That's the thing there were witnesses talking about explosions being witnessed which suprisingly are dead now  

Check the following link of who have been murdered/silenced:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvay28lZiHU&feature=related

You mention 9/11 being an insanely complicated chain of events but if a superpower like America can do complicated space expeditions/goto war on false pretenses then how hard can it be to plan events leading to 9/11. Of course you can never conceal falsehood and eventually the truth comes out hence the witnesses and numerous contradictional/insane 'facts' put forth in the media to 'dumb' people down to not asking questions around the events.

Bear in mind these are the same group of elites that:

- told its people that Germany had sunk one of its ships to enter WWI (the ship it turned out was well in-tact with no such incident ever taking place);

- This is the same government which dropped TWO atomic bombs on civilians in Hiroshima & Nagasaki!;

- This is the same government which created a big foe in 'Communism' and led to the Cold War which eventually led to the demise of the Soviet Union (during WWII, the US and USSR were allies against Germany - USSR was a Communist state then as well as later);

- This is the same government which instigated the Korean war, and then later invented a crisis to place its forces in Vietnam;

- This is the same government which propagated the Gulf War by using the false testimony of the Kuwaiti Ambassador's daughter to Congress (she said she was a nurse in Kuwait and saw the Iraqi atrocities to the babies in the hospital);

- This is the same government which was holding an 'embargo' against Iraq which had caused the death of over 1/2 million children (according to UNICEF). The US was stating that this decade long embargo was needed to rid Saddam of his weapons - the same weapons that the US government sold him!;

- This is the same government which went in to liberate Kuwait from Iraqi invasion, yet feeds Israel with money and arms to continue its invasion of Palestine!.

- This is the same government who bombed targets in Libya (killing Ghadafi's adopted daughter), and bombed targets in Sudan and Afghanistan (the factory owner in Sudan was later compensated in a civil court ruling, the target in Afghanistan turned out to be a mosque!)

INFO TAKEN FROM
http://free-minds.org/fitna

[Magnus]

You mention 9/11 being an insanely complicated chain of events but if a superpower like America can do complicated space expeditions/goto war on false pretenses then how hard can it be to plan events leading to 9/11. Of course you can never conceal falsehood and eventually the truth comes out hence the witnesses and numerous contradictional/insane 'facts' put forth in the media to 'dumb' people down to not asking questions around the events.

I watched half that video before losing patience. If you make a transcript of the text in the video and post it here I will read all of it.
From what I saw it seems like cherry-picking and nothing more. More than 100,000 people die every day - all kinds of people holding all kinds of opinions. If you select which deaths are "important" to fuel your delusions while ignoring all the others, you are bound to reach false conclusions. "mysterious circumstances" and a "commuter plane crash" as cause of death doesn't offer me enough evidence to suspect there was any conspiratorial foul play involved in these deaths. If "the government" is both super-competent and capable of super-human feats of covert operation, and is indeed assassinating truthers, why is Alex Jones and his ilk still alive?

I don't necessarily disbelieve all people who claim to have heard various explosions on 9/11. In a big building fire all kinds of stuff get heated up, and certain objects that are perfectly safe at room temperature tend to go boom when hot enough.

I would argue that going to the moon (in the eyes of the public) is easier than staging an event like 9/11 in secret. From a pure engineering point of view you are correct, but doing such an operation clandestinely in a society as open as the U.S. seems practically impossible to me. You point out lies we have been told and wars that have been started, which I find interesting. If "the government" staged 9/11 to enable them to invade Iraq, why didn't they make the fictional highjackers to be Iraqi nationals instead of mostly Saudis? I agree that the Iraq invasion was based on false pretenses - a big lie if you will - but that doesn't in any way prove that 9/11 was staged by the U.S. government, and is part of that big lie. More likely 9/11 offered the opportunity to pass draconian laws and invade oil-rich countries. It was a windfall, and the Bush administration capitalized on it. They power elite are clever like that, and they are evil. They're just not super-villains.

Salaam.

[Prince]

I watched half that video before losing patience. If you make a transcript of the text in the video and post it here I will read all of it.
From what I saw it seems like cherry-picking and nothing more. More than 100,000 people die every day - all kinds of people holding all kinds of opinions. If you select which deaths are "important" to fuel your delusions while ignoring all the others, you are bound to reach false conclusions. "mysterious circumstances" and a "commuter plane crash" as cause of death doesn't offer me enough evidence to suspect there was any conspiratorial foul play involved in these deaths. If "the government" is both super-competent and capable of super-human feats of covert operation, and is indeed assassinating truthers, why is Alex Jones and his ilk still alive?

I don't necessarily disbelieve all people who claim to have heard various explosions on 9/11. In a big building fire all kinds of stuff get heated up, and certain objects that are perfectly safe at room temperature tend to go boom when hot enough.

I would argue that going to the moon (in the eyes of the public) is easier than staging an event like 9/11 in secret. From a pure engineering point of view you are correct, but doing such an operation clandestinely in a society as open as the U.S. seems practically impossible to me. You point out lies we have been told and wars that have been started, which I find interesting. If "the government" staged 9/11 to enable them to invade Iraq, why didn't they make the fictional highjackers to be Iraqi nationals instead of mostly Saudis? I agree that the Iraq invasion was based on false pretenses - a big lie if you will - but that doesn't in any way prove that 9/11 was staged by the U.S. government, and is part of that big lie. More likely 9/11 offered the opportunity to pass draconian laws and invade oil-rich countries. It was a windfall, and the Bush administration capitalized on it. They power elite are clever like that, and they are evil. They're just not super-villains.

Salaam.

I won't post a transcript of the vid because its just simply a list of deaths occured of 9/11 witnesses that have spoken out against the official story. Ask yourself why America doesn't allow an independant investigation on 9/11. There are people that cannot ignore the contradictions that have been pointed out on that particular day.

You claim the elite aren't super villains but you don't have to be super villains to fool majority of the people....media is a brilliant propaganda tool to suppress the truth but the truth always shines through hence the contradictions that they are running away from answering.

You have to look at the bigger picture which isn't just iraq. It's creating a phantom enemy i.e. muslim terrorists(which is an oxymoron lol) and winning the hearts of it's nation and allies into oppressive wars to gain domination in the world for the top elites.

I understand why you think it's impossible for 9/11 to be an inside job in an open society but thats why you have the C.I.A who engage in covert activities at the request of the President. No need for super villains the C.I.A will suffice 

PEACE

[Magnus]

Salaam.

Prince, you and people like you are the reason I started this thread. You hold some very sensible opinions, have some real knowledge and manage to see through many of the deceptions that the powerful are using to keep the population in line. In general I think disillusionment is good. Never swallow a lie if you can help it.
You also hold on to some unfounded, baseless and outright wrong beliefs. This is unbalanced, clouds your judgement and will make you sound ignorant and more than a little crazy to lots of people. I care about your thought process since you are my brother in faith, and I want your mind to be lucid. Failing that I also care about the potential damage you may do to the reputation of God's perfect religion by mixing truth with falsehood. Is there any way I or anyone else can make you change your mind regarding this particular conspiracy conjecture, I wonder? After all, there are plenty of big lies that are real and need to be exposed. How I wish you would turn your mind in a more fruitful direction...

[nsws1988]

Peace

ok just realised I asked a question that was already discusses here. Ignore me.