Reference post
I am just compiling the list of Qs into one post as I may refer to it in future discussions etc:
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From:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.htmlFor those who consider "sujud" to mean "physical prostration":
1) Re: SJD to/for adam/mankind - 2:34, 7:11-12, 15:29-32, 17:61, 18:50, 20:116, 38:72-76
Issue: if taken as a commonly understood physical prostration, it seems odd that angels/controllers or iblees (made of 'smokeless fire') could do this in a defined physical visible form, but it is possible -
what is your view?2) Re: 22:18, 55:6 - SJD to/for God who is in the heavens/earth, and the sun/moon/stars/mountains/trees/creatures and many of the people
13:15 ...to/for God SJD who is in the heavens and the earth, willingly and unwillingly, and their shadows in the mornings and late-afternoons.
Issue: Contextually implying that the same SJD is done by the shadows as well as who is in the heavens/earth, meaning it is unlikely for it to mean prostrate here -
what is the "sujud" of inanimate objects?If we accept that someone may prostrate physically (nose and forehead on ground) willingly, how can we understand this unwillingly?
Does God push people on their faces forcefully so that they fall down on their noses and foreheads unwillingly?3) Re: 16:48-50 Can they not look to a thing God created? Its shadow turns to the right and the left, SuJaD to/for God and/while they are humble.
Issues: If we take the above as prostrations/prostrating (as some translations do), then this would clearly imply that no matter which direction the shadow faces it is STILL prostrating to/for God, i.e. God is everywhere, which links with "to God belongs the east and west so wherever you turn there is God's face/regard", see 2:115.
This strongly and clearly implies direction is irrelevant here - what is your view on this?Since SJD is in the Arabic plural (more than two) we can infer that each and every point in the shadow's movement is a SJD.
How is it showing this SJD?4) Re: 27:24 "And I found her and her people SJuD to/for the sun instead of God! And the devil had made their works/deeds appear good to them, so averting/hindering them from the path, so they are not guided."
27:25 "Will they not SJuD to/for God who brings out what is hidden in the heavens and the Earth, and He knows what you hide and what you declare?"
Issues: Note it says the hoopoe "found" (wajad) them, not "saw" (raayt) them as in Joseph's dream in which he saw the moon/sun/planets SJD to/for him. Of course, moon/sun/planets do not physically prostrate as humans do, so what Joseph saw was something else -
how were the sun/moon/planets giving sujud to Joseph?So let us assume it means a traditional prostration in 27:24, how can one identify whom the prostration is done to?5) Re: 84:21-22 And when the Quran/reading is recited to them, they do not SJuD. No, those who have rejected/concealed are denying.
Issue: Interestingly, if sujud=prostration here then this implies God wishes the audience to not only accept what is said but ALSO get down on their hands and knees and prostrate physically (to whom/what?). This seems unusual.
What is your understanding of this?6) Re: 48:29 Muhammad is the messenger of God, and those who are with him are stern against the concealers/rejecters/ingrates, but merciful between themselves. You see them inclining/humbling and SuJaD, seeking bounty from God and pleasure/approval. Their distinction is in their faces/attentions/considerations/wills/purposes, from the trace/teaching/influence of the SuJuD.
Issues: Perhaps the majority of people would not have a trace of prostration on their face from physically prostrating in prayer for example, even if it was done many times per day, so this understanding, whilst superficially plausible, actually falls short -
what is your view?It should be noted that i
n the prior context, 48:25, it clearly implies some believers were unknown/unrecognisable, which makes it even more unlikely it is referring to a physical mark on one's face - response?7) Re: 2:58, 4:154, 7:161 ...enter the gate SuJuD
Issue: Clearly they cannot enter the gate prostrating -
response?8 ) Re: Re: 7:120, 20:70, 26:46
20:70 Then the magicians were cast* SuJaD. They said: "We believe in the Lord of Aaron and Moses."
*Arabic: uL'QiYa is in the passive perfect form, meaning the object (i.e. magicians) received the action expressed in the verb, an action done/completed upon them. Using cross-reference the most likely meaning of this word is "cast" and is a likely play on words due to the casting done in the previous context.
Issues:
IF it is translated as physically thrown/cast down (as done in most translations), since it is passive, then one must ask who/what physically threw them down? The answer is of course nothing/no-one, they did it themselves, thus a physical throwing/casting interpretation becomes illogical. To negate this point, an example similar to this in AQ using another passive verb would have to be cited.Further, looking at the following verses, is it likely they made a statement whilst physically prostrating on the ground? -
yes/no/unsure9) Re: 68:42-43 The day the shin shall be exposed/uncovered/removed, and they will be called to the SuJuD but they will not be able. Their looks/eyes humbled/lowered, humiliation will cover them. And indeed they were called to the SuJuD while they were sound/well.
Issue: It should be noted that having one's shin removed is unlikely to prevent one from doing a physical prostration, hence some translators claiming they will be unable to prostrate simply due to their shame, but if this is the case, the obvious question becomes: why mention a shin at all? -
response?10) Re: 17:107-109 Say: "Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins SuJaD."
Issue: do you take it as a physical prostration to the chin or not, or something else?
11) Re: 84:20-22 So what is the matter with them that they do not believe? And when the quran/reading is being recited to them, they do not SJuD. No, those who rejected/concealed are denying.
32:15
Only they believe in Our signs whom when they are reminded by them, they fall SuJaD, and glorify with praise of their Lord, and they are not arrogant.
Issue: this clearly suggests that whenever Quran is recited the audience should physically prostrate -
what is your view?12) Re: 4:102 ...and thou uphold/establish the salat/bond for/to them, then let a group from among them stand/uphold//establish with thee and let them bring their weapons; then when they have SaJaD then let them be behind you (plural)...
Issues:---it would imply that salat ends upon SJD, but if salat=prayer and SJD=prostration here, then we know traditional Muslim prayer has at least two prostrations per unit of prayer, not one, thus the verse by itself is not clear or does not make sense. The only way for it to make some sense would be to say traditional Muslim prayer normally consists of two prostrations, and since it is during wartime this can be reduced to one prostration. There is no such thing as a unit of prayer according to The Quran, nor do traditional Muslims do it in this manner (i.e. prayer does not end with prostration), but this explanation is just to show what sense could be made of this verse according to the traditional understanding.
---it implies that one must take AND hold their weapons/goods with them (by use of 'tadaAAoo / lay down', later in the verse), but if it is understood as traditional Muslim prayer then physically bowing, kneeling and prostrating like this would be impractical and somewhat dangerous, e.g. prostrating with swords!
---it says if impeded by rain or illness then one can lay down weapons but does not say anything about being excluded from prostrating. So the obvious question becomes what kind of rain/illness would prevent one from carrying weapons yet allow one to physically prostrate? It would seem there is no easy answer to this problem.
---We are also left with another problem, because if we accept that the regular/timed salat involves recitation of AQ which is strongly evidenced by AQ itself, and agreed upon by almost all [see 2:43-45, 4:103, 5:12-13, 7:169-170, 8:2-3, 19:58-59, 29:45, 31:2-7, 33:33-34, 17:78], then we know we are commanded to SJD when it is relayed to us [84:20-22, 19:58, 32:15], but if we were to do this in the regular/timed salat and we know salat ends with SJD according to 4:102 then it would last less than 20 seconds!
Views on these 4 issues?###
