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What is the meaning of SuJuD according to The Quran? - new article

Started by Wakas, November 07, 2010, 12:16:46 PM

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Wakas

peace earthdom,

Quote from: Earthdom on May 22, 2013, 10:21:13 AM
I have a question for you:

In  48:29:".... Their distinction/mark/asyari is in their faces, as a result of prostrating/sajada........" (Free-Minds translation)

If sujud is not physical prostating, then what is mark/asyari in verse 48:29?

See: http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html

QuoteTheir mark/distinction/identifying feature is in their faces/attentions/considerations/wills/purposes, from the trace/teaching/influence of the SuJuD.

It may also imply that actualising oneself under the guidance of God's system leads to self-growth and benefits. There is an implication that the act of SJD can function as a catalyst to such growth, as it leaves an impression/influence upon such a person, thus the demeanor stems from that act/mindset, and results in fruitful growth and reward, and this is the message encapsulated in the example at the end. To achieve such effective growth, one's will/consideration/purpose/attention should be traceable back to the act of SJD.

This fits perfectly with the discussion on 7:120, 20:70, 26:46 in the article. Quite simply, when one gives rightful recognition/acknowledgement (submits, honours, pays respect) to God's Words/guidance then this will result in positive growth, everything stems from that realisation, it leaves its mark/impression/influence upon the person guiding their direction/growth etc. This is their identifying feature, what distinguishes them from the rest etc. It's quite a beautiful description.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]

Scribbler

Quote from: Wakas on May 21, 2013, 04:06:39 PM
Scribbler, I find your view puzzling. You say if it were 100% proven sujud did not mean "physical prostration" you'd continue to do it anyway. In other words, you'd go by what you/others think it is or what you want to do (i.e. whim/desire) rather than going by what God told you sujud is in Quran. This is a potentially dangerous path, and Quran is full of examples where this can lead.
You further say "...because the current form of salat that we have today does NOT contravene any verse of the Quran...". Well, it depends on what you mean by "current form of salat that we have today" but I assume you mean a Quranic version of the salat we have today, as there some things in the common Traditional salat that are very questionable, e.g. praising others in one's salat etc.
Since you admit you did not read the article you will have missed the closing paragraph:
"Please note, that is not to say body-physical acts are not allowed. A human being is composed of mind, body and spirit and often body-physical acts can serve to show respect, self-abasement and humility, used as a greeting, or focus our mind etc such as the practice of meditation, tai chi, yoga or kneeling when in supplication to God etc. It simply means that no credible argument for SJD=prostration and therefore prostration during upholding/establishing the salat can be made using The Quran."
So I am not against people physically prostrating if they wish, however what I am against is people saying things about Quran with little or zero evidence. All I want is people to weigh up the evidence, then they can make an informed decision.... not avoid questions then reach a conclusion. This is not prudent.

Peace be with you, Wakas.



Allow me to explain myself once again. But first, I'd like to apologize cause it seems like my last post is unclear to you as I should have explained more clearly.


What I really wanted to say was, if you bring proofs supporting your ideas concerning sujud that it cannot mean prostrating physically, and if I and everyone on this forum fail to refute your arguements, even then I would make physical prostrations in my salat. It's because failing to refute someone's points doesn't always have to mean that the person didn't make any mistake on his research, or that the research doesn't contain any errors. And I'm pretty sure that this is one of the reasons why people tend to adhere to the concept of physical prostration even after doubts enter their hearts. Besides, there's always going to be a voice in my head telling me, "what if brother Wakas is wrong, and what if making physical prostrations is actually a requirement of the guidance?". Hence, I would stick to the form of physically bowing and prostrating in my salat, as per my understanding, I'm not violating any verse of the Quran, and neither do I believe I'm following "whims/desires", but something which is making me more spiritually connected to my God.


And yes, when I said "current form", I meant a Quranic version of the current form. :)




Peace.
Turn to Allah before you turn to ashes.

Wakas

peace Scribbler,

Thanks for clarifying.

For the record, it is very possible my research contains errors, hence my article disclaimer and preference of discussion of the points. This is a key aspect to improving our understanding.
And it would be whim/desire IF, as you said, something was proven "one hundred percent irrefutable evidence" and you did something else. But if you have/had doubts then that would not be the case. However, in such a situation I try to opt for the most evidenced answer.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]

Mazhar

Quote1) Re: SJD to/for adam/mankind - 2:34, 7:11-12, 15:29-32, 17:61, 18:50, 20:116, 38:72-76
Issue: if taken as a commonly understood physical prostration, it seems odd that angels/controllers or iblees (made of 'smokeless fire') could do this in a defined physical visible form, but it is possible - what is your view?

Assalamo alaikum;


1) Basic initial meanings: Feel of reverence and its expression through physical gesture-body language-lowering of head in state chin moving towards chest and gaze going down. It is a relational word-a relationship between the Reverent and the Revered. Reverent and the Revered could be any object or person.

The basic perception infolded and signification conveyed by this Root, in the words of Ibne Faris [died 1005], and others is as under:

(سجد) السين والجيم والدال أصلٌ واحدٌ مطّرد يدلّ على تطامُن وذلّ. يقال سجد، إذا تطَامَنَ. وكلُّ ما ذلَّ فقد سجد. قال أبو عمرو: أسْجَدَ الرَّجُل، إذا طأطأَ رأسَهُ

This is, more or less, explained in Lane's Lexicon, along with other quotes from Lexicons, in this quote:

1 سَجَدَ  , (S, A, Msb, K, &c.,) [aor. سَجُدَ ,] inf. n. سُجُودٌ, (Msb,) He was, or became, lowly, humble, or submissive; syn. خَضَعَ, (S, A, K, TA,) or تَطَامَنَ, and ذَلَّ: (Msb:) or he bent him-self down towards the ground: (Aboo-Bekr, TA: [and such is often meant by خَضَعَ and by تَطَامَنَ:]) [or it has both of these significations combined; i. e. he was, or became, lowly, humble, or submissive, bending himself down; for] the primary signification of السُّجُودُ is تَذَلُّلً together with تَطَأْمُنٌ [or تَطَامُنٌ]. (Bd in ii. 32.) And ↓ اسجد He lowered his head, and bent himself; (AA, S, Mgh, K;) said of a man;

It may be seen that the original, fundamental, basic meanings are the feel of lowliness, humility, submissiveness by one for someone else, which is manifested by lowering of one's head in the state chin moving towards chest along with eyes going downwards, or bending oneself down. The basic perception unfolds that this is a relational word-it happens or takes existence only when there are two entities. Moreover, evidently it is not an abstract or theoretical proposition but a physical act; something expressed, conveyed, and submitted through body language instead of verbal expression.  This act signifies and demonstratively portrays-parallels one's thought of surrender and submission reflecting acceptance of his relative humble state and position as against the exalted, honoured, elevated stature, and glory of other. This gives us its initial perception and meanings as obeisance, homage, respectful, saluting  gesture and behaviour towards/for someone else.

The relational aspect, physical nature and the reflection of the relativity in stature, position and elevation of the subject and the one for whom this act is done is explained at first instance of use of this Root in the Qur'aan:
Listen attentively; at the point in time when We had said for the Angles, "You people pay obeisance for Adam [alahissalam]" [Refer 2:34]

Root: س ج د Basic initial meanings: Feel of reverence and its expression through physical gesture-body language
[url="http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm"]http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm[/url]

alikhan0

The more you struggle to find new meanings for all the words indicating physical salah, the more you will simply have to face the fact that you cannot reinvent the Arabic language to suit your desires. These words are deep, but together they are very clear on the form of salah.

Until you can face that fact, you will be doing nothing more than re-hashing what we already know, and reinventing the Quran to suit your needs. Of course, this is easily done by someone who knows no Arabic whatsoever, and has yet to understand how 3alaa is used in the language.
[url=http://www.schoolquran.com/Learn-Quran-With-Tajweed.php]Learn Quran with Tajweed[/url]

Wakas

peace Mazhar,
You never answered the question! You have made several posts in this thread yet rarely, if ever, answered any of the questions. Please refrain from posting in this thread IF you are not going to address what I'm asking. What physical body gesture did iblees do according to you? If you do not have a view and just think iblees did something but cannot articulate what that might have been just say so............ then move onto the next question, IF you intend on actually answering it that is.


peace alikhan,
It seems the only people struggling are the ones I've posed the questions to, perhaps including yourself. Hence the silence and evasion.
And it is incorrect to claim I know no Arabic whatsoever, I know a little Arabic, but I'm not really interested in unevidenced claims and ad-hominen such as your approach, as I like to say "the proof is in the pudding" - people can read this entire thread and note down how many times something I wrote was shown to be incorrect and/or how many times people have actually answered any of the questions raised in the article. You may find it quite telling.

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]

Mazhar

Quote from: Wakas on May 28, 2013, 05:33:53 AM
peace Mazhar,
You never answered the question! You have made several posts in this thread yet rarely, if ever, answered any of the questions. Please refrain from posting in this thread IF you are not going to address what I'm asking. What physical body gesture did iblees do according to you? If you do not have a view and just think iblees did something but cannot articulate what that might have been just say so............ then move onto the next question, IF you intend on actually answering it that is.


Salamun alaika,

You asked for the views, which can also be disturbing.  Where did I say that Iblees did some body physical gesture?
I just explained the basic meanings of the word, supported by Lexicons. Lexicons are based on the convention of the natives of language. It is a relational word. This word has compulsorily physical connotation. English word "humble" also has body language.

And what is suggested by it?

QuoteThus, the most appropriate meanings are: submissive, to honour, to pay respect.

esteem somebody or something: to feel or show admiration and deference toward somebody or something.

[url="http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm"]http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm[/url]

Wakas

w/salaam Mazhar,

It's quite simple: according to Quran iblees did not SJD, and you said "This word (i.e. SJD) has compulsorily physical connotation." - thus what did iblees do to show this non-SJD according to you - whereas malaika did something to show SJD - what did they do according to you? Feel free to suggest anything plausible according to you.

If you do not understand the question then don't reply, or if you reply without an answer, I will not respond.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]

Mazhar

Quote from: Wakas on May 28, 2013, 11:14:01 AM
w/salaam Mazhar,

It's quite simple: according to Quran iblees did not SJD, and you said "This word (i.e. SJD) has compulsorily physical connotation." - thus what did iblees do to show this non-SJD according to you - whereas malaika did something to show SJD - what did they do according to you? Feel free to suggest anything plausible according to you.

If you do not understand the question then don't reply, or if you reply without an answer, I will not respond.

This shows me as if you not even opened the link.

Iblees did not do it. His explanation - argument for not having done it, also shows what this word means.

Consequently, in compliance they did pay obeisance. However, Ieb'lees demurred while he made his own self obsessed/puffed with pride of grandeur and superiority.

The relational aspect is conspicuously evident; one is the performer and the other is the one for or before whom the act is performed. The sincere feel and passion paralleled by the physical gesture of body parts bowing reflects willful and affectionate acknowledgement of the greatness, grandeur and superiority of the one for or before whom one demonstrates it. The essence, or the inherent consideration for the performance of this act, at one's own inclination, before or for someone is to seek his attention, acknowledgement, and thereby become nearer to the exalted.

The act of Ieb'lees and his state of mind, when he demurred to comply with the command, further reflects the denotation of the act signified by this verb. He was obsessed-puffed with pride of grandeur and superiority. What impression and message is conveyed, and is gathered by onlookers watching this physical gesture, body language? It is quite vividly disclosed by quoting the plea-so called logic of  Ieb'lees for holding himself back in paying obeisance for Adam alahissalam:

Allah the Exalted enquired, asking: "O Ieb'lees! What is that which hampered-restrained-held you back that you might not humble-show obeisance at the point in time when I directed you for this?" [Refer 7:12]
Allah the Exalted enquired, asking: "O Ieb'lees! What was that for you which prompted that you may not be the reverent along with those who humble in obeisance?" [15:32]
Allah the Exalted enquired, asking,  "O Ieb'lees, what is that which hindered/prevented you that you should show obeisance for the one whom I created with My Hands?

Is it for reason that you thought yourself great or/as if  have you been from amongst the arrogates-haughty?" [38:75]

His answer discloses the manifestations and exposures linked in doing the commanded act

He replied, "I am superior than him.

You have created me from fire, and You have created him from clay" [Part 7:12-Ayah 38:76]

[Common sense: Only junior officer salutes the senior officer; not the senior officer salutes the junior]


He said, "Have you seen this one whom You have dignified and honoured upon me". [Refer 17:62]

Notwithstanding, that Ieb'lees is perhaps the first pseudo-intellectual, his understanding of exposure and manifestation, which is caused by  "you pay obeisance", discloses the essence embedded in this bodily act-gesture-body language. It is visibly concrete exposure of feel and acceptance of relative humility, smallness, less importance, and inferiority in state, position and honour than the one whom obeisance is paid. He, in his own assessment, weighed himself as superior/better than the one whom he was asked to pay obeisance. Therefore, he did not find it befitting to pay obeisance to the one whom he thought inferior to his self. His support argument and "logic" for presuming himself superior, indicating that rather he is more deserving to be paid obeisance, was the base material of their respective creation. He did not become a reverent for the one whom Allah the Exalted dignified and honored upon him. This is reflective of his act "he made his own self obsessed/puffed with pride of grandeur and superiority".

The above Episode has indicated that the basic or initial perception infolded in the Root relates to a feel of reverence for someone, other than one's self, and its tangible expression by physical gesture-body language-lowering of head in the state chin moving towards chest along with eyes/gaze going downwards. It demonstrates acceptance of ones relative inferior-junior status, humbleness, less significance with simultaneous recognition of other's dignified, honored, elevated stature, rank, position, significance, importance, grandeur worthy of respect and obeisance. [In this Episode, 21 out of 92 occurrences appear]

It thus conspicuously reveals that the state of mind, i.e. the feel precedes the gesture, its expression by body language. The Root has been used at other occurrences also where the relational field restricts its meanings to its basic-initial signification, i.e. feel of humbleness with head down on chin in humility posture.

[url="http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm"]http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm[/url]

Man of Faith

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