What is the meaning of SuJuD according to The Quran? - new article

[Wakas]

peace Mazhar,

You said:

...that their act was voluntary not forced upon them. And at all three places it is immediatley followed by circumstantial clause. It is plural active participle having built in pronoun referring to the performers...

Can you clarify: are you saying the performer and receiver of the passive verb are the illusionists? If so, can you please provide another example in Quran wherein the performer/doer and receiver of a passive verb are one and the same person? Thanks. There may well be many other examples but it seemed odd to me, hence bringing it up.


And don't forget the rest of the Qs 

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1) Re: SJD to/for adam/mankind - 2:34, 7:11-12, 15:29-32, 17:61, 18:50, 20:116, 38:72-76
Issue: if taken as a commonly understood physical prostration, it seems odd that angels/controllers or iblees (made of 'smokeless fire') could do this in a defined physical visible form, but it is possible - what is your view?

2) Re: 22:18, 55:6 - SJD to/for God who is in the heavens/earth, and the sun/moon/stars/mountains/trees/creatures and many of the people
13:15 ...to/for God SJD who is in the heavens and the earth, willingly and unwillingly, and their shadows in the mornings and late-afternoons.
Issue: Contextually implying that the same SJD is done by the shadows as well as who is in the heavens/earth, meaning it is unlikely for it to mean prostrate here - what is the "sujud" of inanimate objects?
If we accept that someone may prostrate physically (nose and forehead on ground) willingly, how can we understand this unwillingly? Does God push people on their faces forcefully so that they fall down on their noses and foreheads unwillingly?

3) Re: 16:48-50 Can they not look to a thing God created? Its shadow turns to the right and the left, SuJaD to/for God and/while they are humble.
Issues: If we take the above as prostrations/prostrating (as some translations do), then this would clearly imply that no matter which direction the shadow faces it is STILL prostrating to/for God, i.e. God is everywhere, which links with "to God belongs the east and west so wherever you turn there is God's face/regard", see 2:115. This strongly and clearly implies direction is irrelevant here - what is your view on this?
Since SJD is in the Arabic plural (more than two) we can infer that each and every point in the shadow's movement is a SJD. How is it showing this SJD?

4) Re: 27:24 "And I found her and her people SJuD to/for the sun instead of God! And the devil had made their works/deeds appear good to them, so averting/hindering them from the path, so they are not guided."
27:25 "Will they not SJuD to/for God who brings out what is hidden in the heavens and the Earth, and He knows what you hide and what you declare?"
Issues: Note it says the hoopoe "found" (wajad) them, not "saw" (raayt) them as in Joseph's dream in which he saw the moon/sun/planets SJD to/for him. Of course, moon/sun/planets do not physically prostrate as humans do, so what Joseph saw was something else - how were the sun/moon/planets giving sujud to Joseph?
So let us assume it means a traditional prostration in 27:24, how can one identify whom the prostration is done to?

5) Re: 84:21-22 And when the Quran/reading is recited to them, they do not SJuD. No, those who have rejected/concealed are denying.
Issue: Interestingly, if sujud=prostration here then this implies God wishes the audience to not only accept what is said but ALSO get down on their hands and knees and prostrate physically (to whom/what?). This seems unusual. What is your understanding of this?

6) Re: 48:29 Muhammad is the messenger of God, and those who are with him are stern against the concealers/rejecters/ingrates, but merciful between themselves. You see them inclining/humbling and SuJaD, seeking bounty from God and pleasure/approval. Their distinction is in their faces/attentions/considerations/wills/purposes, from the trace/teaching/influence of the SuJuD.
Issues: Perhaps the majority of people would not have a trace of prostration on their face from physically prostrating in prayer for example, even if it was done many times per day, so this understanding, whilst superficially plausible, actually falls short - what is your view?
It should be noted that in the prior context, 48:25, it clearly implies some believers were unknown/unrecognisable, which makes it even more unlikely it is referring to a physical mark on one's face - response?

7) Re: 2:58, 4:154, 7:161 ...enter the gate SuJuD
Issue: Clearly they cannot enter the gate prostrating - response?

8 ) Re: Re: 7:120, 20:70, 26:46
20:70 Then the magicians were cast* SuJaD. They said: "We believe in the Lord of Aaron and Moses."
*Arabic: uL'QiYa is in the passive perfect form, meaning the object (i.e. magicians) received the action expressed in the verb, an action done/completed upon them. Using cross-reference the most likely meaning of this word is "cast" and is a likely play on words due to the casting done in the previous context.
Issues: IF it is translated as physically thrown/cast down (as done in most translations), since it is passive, then one must ask who/what physically threw them down? The answer is of course nothing/no-one, they did it themselves, thus a physical throwing/casting interpretation becomes illogical. To negate this point, an example similar to this in AQ using another passive verb would have to be cited.
Further, looking at the following verses, is it likely they made a statement whilst physically prostrating on the ground? - yes/no/unsure

9) Re: 68:42-43 The day the shin shall be exposed/uncovered/removed, and they will be called to the SuJuD but they will not be able. Their looks/eyes humbled/lowered, humiliation will cover them. And indeed they were called to the SuJuD while they were sound/well.
Issue: It should be noted that having one's shin removed is unlikely to prevent one from doing a physical prostration, hence some translators claiming they will be unable to prostrate simply due to their shame, but if this is the case, the obvious question becomes: why mention a shin at all? - response?

10) Re: 17:107-109 Say: "Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins SuJaD."
Issue: do you take it as a physical prostration to the chin or not, or something else?

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[Mazhar]

peace Mazhar,

You said:

Quote
...that their act was voluntary not forced upon them. And at all three places it is immediatley followed by circumstantial clause. It is plural active participle having built in pronoun referring to the performers...
Can you clarify: are you saying the performer and receiver of the passive verb are the illusionists? If so, can you please provide another example in Quran wherein the performer/doer and receiver of a passive verb are one and the same person? Thanks. There may well be many other examples but it seemed odd to me, hence bringing it up.

Salamun alaika,

I hope the difference between an active and passive verb is understood. Passive Verb has Proxy - Ergative Subject. The Illusionists--definite noun is in nominative case ---are the Proxy Subject of this verb. The action in the Passive verb is not directed towards someone else but the illusionists themselves.  The next word "Sajidena" is active participle ---those who perform some act --and that act is only that which is in the verb from which "sajidena" is made. It is in accusative state, which means it is Circumstantial clause. Therby, everything is manifestly evident.

[Mazhar]

And don't forget the rest of the Qs

Please just go through the link earlier provided.

[Scribbler]

Peace be upon you, Wakas.



Let me be very honest with you. I didn't bother to read your arguments regarding sujud to find out whether you've been successful on proving that it does not mean "physical prostration" or not in a Quran's perspective. It's because when I read those verses of sujud, I, myself, feel that it may not mean physical prostration in all circumstances, although in some verses it is possible that it could be talking about prostrating physically depending on the context.


But even if you were fully able to prove with one hundred percent irrefutable evidence that there is no way sujud can mean prostrating physically anywhere in the Quran, I would still continue to make physical prostrations in my salat, because the current form of salat that we have today does NOT contravene any verse of the Quran. It rather fulfills the fundamental requirement of the Quran in terms of establishing salat. Therefore, it wouldn't matter to me whatever you prove sujud to mean, as I find absolutely no cogent reason to reinvent the practice to create more differences between me and the traditional Muslims.



Peace.

[Man of Faith]

Peace Scribbler,

Sujud may mean "to submit" (or humble yourself) based on the context. What is more submitting than to physically prostrate and glorify your Lord?

If now God did not require us to prostrate I do so anyway to show my deepest respect to Him.

Prayers I do not exclude at all because there is, according to me, too much circumstantial evidence to prove them. I had one example in another thread with a couple of verses going something like this: [17:80-81] "And say: Oh Lord, admit me an honorable admittance, let me depart an honorable departure, grant me from You a powerful support. The Truth has prevailed, falsehood has vanished, falsehood will inevitably vanish". If there is no prayer, why is this phrase aimed at God with a say command?

And, the first chapter of Quran is asking God for something, it is really a prayer rather than an informative text. You pray to God that you receive guidance, the seven verses are aimed towards God and not to us.

The question in my mind is rather; what is the correct prayer, not if there is a prayer or not. I have seen many different sorts of prayers: kneeling, crossing hands, raising hands in air, prostration, bowing, or rather combinations of them. Before I became knowledgeable about islam I simply cried out to the Lord and my prayer was heard anyway.

I pray to show that I submit to God, glorify Him and implore about various issues. And I pray a modified version of the traditional muslim prayer, especially noteworthy for my lifted hands in the air 45 degrees.

Well, I take that all righteous deeds you do show the sujud to God. Glorifying God is part of it, but not exclusively. Your living as a muslim shows that you submit to God.

Hope my words were not too dull to read.

God bless you and all other people

[Wakas]

peace all,

Mazhar, as I said, all I am requesting is one example from Quran of what I asked for of the passive verb. Simple.

Scribbler, I find your view puzzling. You say if it were 100% proven sujud did not mean "physical prostration" you'd continue to do it anyway. In other words, you'd go by what you/others think it is or what you want to do (i.e. whim/desire) rather than going by what God told you sujud is in Quran. This is a potentially dangerous path, and Quran is full of examples where this can lead.
You further say "...because the current form of salat that we have today does NOT contravene any verse of the Quran...". Well, it depends on what you mean by "current form of salat that we have today" but I assume you mean a Quranic version of the salat we have today, as there some things in the common Traditional salat that are very questionable, e.g. praising others in one's salat etc.
Since you admit you did not read the article you will have missed the closing paragraph:
"Please note, that is not to say body-physical acts are not allowed. A human being is composed of mind, body and spirit and often body-physical acts can serve to show respect, self-abasement and humility, used as a greeting, or focus our mind etc such as the practice of meditation, tai chi, yoga or kneeling when in supplication to God etc. It simply means that no credible argument for SJD=prostration and therefore prostration during upholding/establishing the salat can be made using The Quran."
So I am not against people physically prostrating if they wish, however what I am against is people saying things about Quran with little or zero evidence. All I want is people to weigh up the evidence, then they can make an informed decision.... not avoid questions then reach a conclusion. This is not prudent.

MofF, you said "If now God did not require us to prostrate I do so anyway to show my deepest respect to Him." - one could suggest showing deepest respect for God would be to do what He asks of us by way of deeds. In any case, I think we can all agree Quran never prioritises the external over the internal or physical display over sincerity of one's heart etc so clearly a physical expression such as prostration is only one, out of a whole array of things one can do to show one's conviction/respect/etc.

[Man of Faith]

Peace Wakas,

Yes. I thought that was clear from my post.

But despite this sujud I cannot exclude prayers completely, I am sorry but that is not my Faith. I call unto my Lord and I do it in various respectful ways such as kneeling or the likes.

Although we differ on things we actually agree on certain things as according to what you wrote to Scribbler.

Prayers mean nothing if you are not worthy of God's proximity due to unrighteous acts and living. But I doubt it is useless to beg for something even if you are "bad".

God bless you

[Earthdom]

Peace @Wakas

Yes, the word sajada has different meaning, and the selection of the meaning is depending on surounding sentences.So it will fit to the verse.

I have a question for you:

In  48:29:".... Their distinction/mark/asyari is in their faces, as a result of prostrating/sajada........" (Free-Minds translation)

If sujud is not physical prostating, then what is mark/asyari in verse 48:29?

Maybe this question by an arabic amateur like me sound funny , but hope you can answer it.

[Wakas]

peace MofF,

I have no problem with "prayer". Quran is full of petitions to God, praise, thanks etc. This is more correctly termed "dua" in my view however.

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In any case, continued....

11) Re: 84:20-22 So what is the matter with them that they do not believe? And when the quran/reading is being recited to them, they do not SJuD. No, those who rejected/concealed are denying.
32:15 Only they believe in Our signs whom when they are reminded by them, they fall SuJaD, and glorify with praise of their Lord, and they are not arrogant.
Issue: this clearly suggests that whenever Quran is recited the audience should physically prostrate - what is your view?

12) Re: 4:102 ...and thou uphold/establish the salat/bond for/to them, then let a group from among them stand/uphold//establish with thee and let them bring their weapons; then when they have SaJaD then let them be behind you (plural)...
Issues:
---it would imply that salat ends upon SJD, but if salat=prayer and SJD=prostration here, then we know traditional Muslim prayer has at least two prostrations per unit of prayer, not one, thus the verse by itself is not clear or does not make sense. The only way for it to make some sense would be to say traditional Muslim prayer normally consists of two prostrations, and since it is during wartime this can be reduced to one prostration. There is no such thing as a unit of prayer according to The Quran, nor do traditional Muslims do it in this manner (i.e. prayer does not end with prostration), but this explanation is just to show what sense could be made of this verse according to the traditional understanding.
---it implies that one must take AND hold their weapons/goods with them (by use of 'tadaAAoo / lay down', later in the verse), but if it is understood as traditional Muslim prayer then physically bowing, kneeling and prostrating like this would be impractical and somewhat dangerous, e.g. prostrating with swords!
---it says if impeded by rain or illness then one can lay down weapons but does not say anything about being excluded from prostrating. So the obvious question becomes what kind of rain/illness would prevent one from carrying weapons yet allow one to physically prostrate? It would seem there is no easy answer to this problem.
---We are also left with another problem, because if we accept that the regular/timed salat involves recitation of AQ which is strongly evidenced by AQ itself, and agreed upon by almost all [see 2:43-45, 4:103, 5:12-13, 7:169-170, 8:2-3, 19:58-59, 29:45, 31:2-7, 33:33-34, 17:78], then we know we are commanded to SJD when it is relayed to us [84:20-22, 19:58, 32:15], but if we were to do this in the regular/timed salat and we know salat ends with SJD according to 4:102 then it would last less than 20 seconds!
Views on these 4 issues?

[zone]

Peace @Wakas

Yes, the word sajada has different meaning, and the selection of the meaning is depending on surounding sentences.So it will fit to the verse.

I have a question for you:

In  48:29:".... Their distinction/mark/asyari is in their faces, as a result of prostrating/sajada........" (Free-Minds translation)

If sujud is not physical prostating, then what is mark/asyari in verse 48:29?

Maybe this question by an arabic amateur like me sound funny , but hope you can answer it.

Peace Earthdom.

Sorry to interupt. I am sure when I have met and known you for quite some times, I will recognize your goodness, from your character, manifested by your marks (bisimahum) and your face (wajhah) of submission in the way of Allah in doing many things righteous. Also, note that believers can recognize each other in the Hereafter by their marks and faces. (see 7:46, 7:48)

This is how I learn to discover the meanings of Allah?s word from the Quran, by studying the word and its usage in context of the verses as it appears in the Book of Guidance. The Quran is self-explanatory and consistent in the way it unfolds the meanings of things.

Yes [on the contrary], whoever submits his face in Islam to Allah while being a doer of good will have his reward with his Lord. And no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve. (2:112)

On the Day [some] faces will turn white and [some] faces will turn black. As for those whose faces turn black, [to them it will be said], "Did you disbelieve after your belief? Then taste the punishment for what you used to reject." (3:106)

But as for those whose faces will turn white, [they will be] within the mercy of Allah. They will abide therein eternally. (3:107)

And who is better in religion than one who submits his face (wajhahu) to Allah while being a doer of good and follows the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth? And Allah took Abraham as an intimate friend. (4:125)

For them who have done good is the best [reward] and extra. No darkness will cover their faces, nor humiliation. Those are companions of Paradise; they will abide therein eternally (10:26)
For each [religious following] is a direction toward which it faces. So race to [all that is] good. Wherever you may be, Allah will bring you forth [for judgement] all together. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.(2:148)

Marks (sima)

[Charity is] for the poor who have been restricted for the cause of Allah , unable to move about in the land. An ignorant [person] would think them self-sufficient because of their restraint, but you will know them by their [characteristic] sign (bisimahum). They do not ask people persistently [or at all]. And whatever you spend of good - indeed, Allah is Knowing of it. (2:273)

And if We willed, We could show them to you, and you would know them by their mark; but you will surely know them by the tone of [their] speech. And Allah knows your deeds.(47:30)

Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah ; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating [in prayer], seeking bounty from Allah and [His] pleasure. Their mark is on their faces from the trace of prostration. That is their description in the Torah. And their description in the Gospel is as a plant which produces its offshoots and strengthens them so they grow firm and stand upon their stalks, delighting the sowers - so that Allah may enrage by them the disbelievers. Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds among them forgiveness and a great reward.