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Does God know whole of the future of the individual

Started by Pel, October 16, 2010, 04:40:39 PM

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1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace

This is an interesting subject. There is a possibility that while God can do anything, including "breaking" the laws we are subjected to, He may have chosen not to in relation to us. The idea of God being aware of all outcomes of all decisions taken makes sense to me. He does not, however know which decision we are going to make. There could be no accountability if this was the case.

An interesting verse is 6:101 where God puts forward the argument that "How can He have a child when He has no consort/mate?" If He has not chosen act within His laws when it comes to man, this argument would be extremely illogical.

Imraan

Wakas

peace Imraan,

Knowing what decision a person will make does not mean one forced that person to make that decision, just means they know that person really well. There is no accountability when one is forced. We have free-choice, we are not forced to do anything.

I do not think 6:101 implies that. It seems to be a rhetorical question and makes the audience think, e.g. either they accept the argument and say "yeh God does not have a mate he cant have a child" or they say "God does not need a mate to have a child, God is all-powerful" but if they accept the latter then an all-powerful being has no need of a child either.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace Wakas

Wakas wrote:
Quotepeace Imraan,

Knowing what decision a person will make does not mean one forced that person to make that decision, just means they know that person really well. There is no accountability when one is forced. We have free-choice, we are not forced to do anything.

I do not think 6:101 implies that. It seems to be a rhetorical question and makes the audience think, e.g. either they accept the argument and say "yeh God does not have a mate he cant have a child" or they say "God does not need a mate to have a child, God is all-powerful" but if they accept the latter then an all-powerful being has no need of a child either.

I don't think that one can say that because I know someone really well, I know what decision they will make. One can, however make an educated guess as to what decision they will make. Knowing with certainty what anyone will do means that they will do that. One may not have forced them to to do it, but if it is certain that they will do it, it is a foregone conclusion. This would mean that they cannot decide differently from this foregone conclusion. This equates to forcing such a person to do something by virtue of the very fact that they cannot deviate from such a foregone conclusion.

For me, 6:101 is not rhetorical. God's choice to limit His intervention in our lives through any kind of miraculous act is not asserting that God is limited. If I can run faster than my 6 year old son, but choose to let him win the race; it does not follow that I am incapable of winning the race, just that I choose to give him the pleasure of winning the race.

For me, God placing such limitations upon Himself is proof of an All Powerful God. Such a God has no need to assert His capabilities to act miraculously in order to bring about an effect that had no cause within the human sphere. The consistency provided in our lives by the absence of miraculous intervention allows for proper results / effects to follow the initiating cause. It is for this reason that we can evaluate the truth of the message in that when we act according to the laws set out by God, using the guidance sent down through revelation, the results will be consistent.

That's my take on it anyway. There may be verses that I haven't come to grips with yet, but I cannot find it within myself to accept such things as miraculous. I or we, may just not understand how the laws governing these work yet.

Imraan

Wootah

I never understood how knowing something meant that I could control it. So unless or until someone proves to me that knowing something means that it can be controlled then there is no need to presume we are not in control of our choices.
I'm a Christian ... just letting you know.

Wakas

peace Imraan,

QuoteI don't think that one can say that because I know someone really well, I know what decision they will make. One can, however make an educated guess as to what decision they will make. Knowing with certainty what anyone will do means that they will do that. One may not have forced them to to do it, but if it is certain that they will do it, it is a foregone conclusion. This would mean that they cannot decide differently from this foregone conclusion. This equates to forcing such a person to do something by virtue of the very fact that they cannot deviate from such a foregone conclusion.

Parts in bold are contradictory.
However, you are right when you say to us it may be an 'educated guess', but to an all-knowing entity who has all the information, it would not be a guess.


Also, you discussed whether something is miraculous or not, but I never mentioned that at all. That is a much bigger, but somewhat related discussion. I agree with the gist of what you said, but I have found those who advocate such an absolute view falter when it comes to explaining divine revelation in the form of a scripture.

I would be interested to know of any Quranic works or reasoning which attempt to explain such or attempts to claim God does not know which path we will take.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]

Rami

God doesn't know what will you do next. The reason for creation was for God to know who is the best in conduct. If He already knew, there is no point in creation.

When something happens, God will know about it. Thats why Angels keep sending information to God. What is the point if God already knows.

So God is not an infinite being outside of time and space but actually a physical being. The angels take 50000 years to reach Him.

Peace.

Wootah

Quote from: Rami on October 20, 2010, 06:24:59 PM
God doesn't know what will you do next. The reason for creation was for God to know who is the best in conduct. If He already knew, there is no point in creation.

When something happens, God will know about it. Thats why Angels keep sending information to God. What is the point if God already knows.

So God is not an infinite being outside of time and space but actually a physical being. The angels take 50000 years to reach Him.

Peace.


Wow. So God didn't create the universe for you?
I'm a Christian ... just letting you know.

you gunna eat that

Peace

Saying God does not know what we will freely choose is an option to solving the dilemma with the added supplement that knowing what man will freely choose is impossible and against the laws of nature; omnipotence does not necessitate breaking the laws of nature or doing the impossible.  

Wakas's option seems on the right track as well.  The dilemma is built on something called the Principle of Alternate Possibilities.  I must have alternate possibilities in order for my act to be free.  If God knows the future, I can do nothing other than what God knows, thus I am not free.  But I do not think the Principle of Alternate Possibilities is a necessary requirement for free will.  

For example, assume that I am in a room and I must choose between leaving the room or staying in the room.  Let's add the condition that the door is locked.  Thus, I really only have the possibility of staying in the room, no alternate possibilities.  If I choose to stay in the room regardless, have I not acted freely?  I stole this example from John Locke.

Peace


Wootah

Quote from: you gunna eat that on October 20, 2010, 10:30:32 PM
Peace

Saying God does not know what we will freely choose is an option to the dilemma. 

Wakas's option seems on the right track as well.  The dilemma is built on something called the Principle of Alternate Possibilities.  I must have alternate possibilities in order for my act to be free.  If God knows the future, I can do nothing other than what God knows, thus I am not free.  But I do not think the Principle of Alternate Possibilities is a necessary requirement for free will. 

For example, assume that I am in a room and I must choose between leaving the room or staying in the room.  Let's add the condition that the door is locked.  Thus, I really only have the possibility of staying in the room, no alternate possibilities.  If I choose to stay in the room regardless, have I not acted freely?  I stole this example from John Locke.

Peace


How does God knowing what you will do control what you will do?
I'm a Christian ... just letting you know.

you gunna eat that

I agree with you Wootah. That's the point of the example of the room
Peace