Issue with Salat timings

[nimnimak_11]

Peace All

Fajr and isha. There are places in the world in which the day or the night is continuous for up to 6 months.
How can we apply fajr and isha to such places?

If there is no merging of the day into the night or the night into the day for possibly up to 6 months, does that mean no salat??

Should we not possibly seek alternate meanings to fajr and isha or is that too farfetched to even consider?

[Wakas]

peace,

AFAIK the singular is used in all salat timing verses which mention movement of sun etc

Only 24:58 is plural, and could refer to time of day, i.e. your morning and evening.

[1CELOSTNOWFOUND]

Peace

nimnimak wrote:

Should we not possibly seek alternate meanings to fajr and isha or is that too farfetched to even consider?

I don't think that it is a matter of being too far fetched to consider. Sometimes the traditional understandings are far fetched. I was recently challenged regarding SJD having the primary meaning of physical prostration, while other meanings are extended meanings. However, I showed that there are other meanings that fit every context of SJD in the Quran, whereas physical prostration does not. Hence in Quranic usage the physical prostration seems to be an extension of other possible meanings. So, sometimes what is apparently far fetched in defining a term may actually prove to be the more rational & correct meaning and possibly closer to how the word may originally have been used.

wakas wrote:

AFAIK the singular is used in all salat timing verses which mention movement of sun etc

Only 24:58 is plural, and could refer to time of day, i.e. your morning and evening.

This is interesting. Do you mean by this that there is a possibility that it could refer to different communities determining their salat timing according to the logistics of their days or that individuals would determine their salat timing according to the logistics of their day individually? Having read some of your opinions on salat, I would imagine it being the former.

Imraan

[nimnimak_11]

peace,

AFAIK the singular is used in all salat timing verses which mention movement of sun etc

Only 24:58 is plural, and could refer to time of day, i.e. your morning and evening.

Peace Wakas

According to corpus and AFAIK the occurences of salat are not plural in 24:58. Do you mean to say the word "times" as plural? Or am i just misunderstanding corpus?

[nimnimak_11]

Peace

nimnimak wrote:
I don't think that it is a matter of being too far fetched to consider. Sometimes the traditional understandings are far fetched. I was recently challenged regarding SJD having the primary meaning of physical prostration, while other meanings are extended meanings. However, I showed that there are other meanings that fit every context of SJD in the Quran, whereas physical prostration does not. Hence in Quranic usage the physical prostration seems to be an extension of other possible meanings. So, sometimes what is apparently far fetched in defining a term may actually prove to be the more rational & correct meaning and possibly closer to how the word may originally have been used.

wakas wrote:
This is interesting. Do you mean by this that there is a possibility that it could refer to different communities determining their salat timing according to the logistics of their days or that individuals would determine their salat timing according to the logistics of their day individually? Having read some of your opinions on salat, I would imagine it being the former.

Imraan

Peace Imraan

I read something about the usage of prostrate in the Quran and certain verses that were quoted made it unreasonable to take it to mean physical prostration. This and other things make me think that perhaps other meanings for fajr and isha. I have looked at the roots and have seen other meanings but i personally don't think it to make sense to apply other meanings. Specifically if you consider the "the near parts of the night" in 11:114

[Wakas]

peace all,

I should have clarified. By "plural" I meant the people addressed.

Do you mean by this that there is a possibility that it could refer to different communities determining their salat timing according to the logistics of their days or that individuals would determine their salat timing according to the logistics of their day individually?

Yes.

[loxbox13]

there's a verse that says  You see them nowing prostrating
How do you see someone bowing or protrating if they're not doing it physically
As for Salat there's verses  that say  Aqui salat .....
these verses never spoke of more than three times a day,  i believe there is a three times a day, but the exact timings is difficult to get,   but if u use wisdom, people used to pray according to the quran, than hadithists came in and started making the religion difficult
but can they taje out the originale one? ofcourse not, because people were real muslims, do they did the trick of adding,  how do we find the original one? I am a sunni by birth, so i know how the sunnis pray
here is what we must do to find them from the tradition:
1 the praying is times,  they cannot change it's timin
2 the prayer has to be done according to the quran, so if they add it has to be different , to claim it on sunnah
3 the prayer according to the quran has to be moderated voice, not too loud and not silently
So in a sunni mosque ; they pray ;  Fadjr  2 rakaa with moderated voice ---- correct
                                                 dhohr 4 rakaa silently ------- False therefore void
                                                  ASR   4 Rakaa siletly  ------- False therefore void
                                                  Maghrib 3rakaa 2 with moderated voice 1 silently, therefore 2 rakaa correct
                                                  Isha   4 rakaa  2 with voice  2 silent   therefore 2 rakaa correct


If we go by tradition logic ,  there's  fadjr 2 rakaa ,  maghrin 2 rakaa and isha 2 rakaa
the only prayer that isn't really correpted is djoumouaa,  2 rakaa with voice
timing of djoumouaa is datime because allah said leave your work when done go back to work

That's what came into my mind, don't know if I'm correct or not

[nimnimak_11]

peace all,

I should have clarified. By "plural" I meant the people addressed.
Yes.

Peace Wakas

I have been looking at 11:114 and 17:78 thinking that perhaps they were addressed specifically to the prophet considering that the word establish are masculin singular in both cases. This may not mean much in the case of arabic, I would not know and thus I was hoping you would help.

Another problem i have is 24:58 gives us the titles fajr and esha and our only reference to these titles (where they are expanded upon with regards to salat) are in 11:114 and 17:78 which specify dawn and sunset leaving no room for one to choose when the 2 ends of his/her day is. Am I missing something here?

[Wakas]

peace n11,

A command in the plural would be for every mumin, and the singular command is for the individual. Those at the time, and in that region, would have done it as the individual amongst them was commanded. This does not necessarily mean it is this way for everyone everywhere.

[nimnimak_11]

peace n11,

Peace Wakas

A command in the plural would be for every mumin, and the singular command is for the individual. Those at the time, and in that region, would have done it as the individual amongst them was commanded. This does not necessarily mean it is this way for everyone everywhere.

Ok so am i right in thinking that the words fajr and isha don't necessarily mean sunrise and sunset and that they could convey one's start and one's end to a day?

From PRL, i have not found anything that suggests this with regards to roots of the two words and 24:58 uses both regarding salat. This would be problematic in places without alternation between day and night for long periods of time. Any suggestions?