A personal view regarding salat

[brook]

Peace Hasan,

Either the whole expression is taken physically or not. If "chin" is not taken physically then "sujaddan" cannot be taken physically. An example that is to be taken physically is in 7:143, where we hear "khar Mousa s'aqan", Moses fell in shock. One cannot take "fell" as idiomatic while "shock" as physical.

I have nothing against physical prostration but then if you really believe that it is physical you have to do it to the chin and not the forehead. It is quite telling that the god uses this particular idiom (which fabricators of poetry later borrowed) since one cannot prostrate physically to the chin and the forehead at the same time. It is either or. So what the god is essentially telling us is that whether we interpret "sujud" physically or non physically, what sectarians are doing is not correct.

There is nothing in the word "qam" that says it is physical for sure. Just read the same word further down in 4:127:

"That you stand for the orphans in equality."

Is this same exact verb as in 4:102 physical?

Peace,

Ayman

I have nothing against physical prostration but then if you really believe that it is physical you have to do it to the chin and not the forehead.

Salaam ayman.

The expression in يَخِرُّونَ لِلأَذْقَانِ سُجَّدًا  is idiomatic; that is, it has got nothing to do with the chin. Example: "...mighty trees were humbled by a strong downpour of rain, and they fell to the chin." Trees do not have a chin. The chin in this context is nonexistent. You do not have to carry out your physical prostration to something which is nonexistent when prostration is concerned.

The example is from a fictitious character, alright, but it is from the language of the Arabs, which is factual. And the fact that لِلأَذْقَانِ is idiomatic is the result of a comparative study of 17:107 and 17:109, which are also factual.

Plus, it is not cited in order to deal with the question whether SAJDAH is physical or not; it is not cited in favor of or against any claim. It is cited during a study.

As for FALTAQUM in 4:102, this verb may mean stand up like in 27:39 as well as deal with like in 4:127.

before you stand up from your place (TAQOOMA - تَقُومَ)
That you deal justly with the orphans (TAQOOMOO - تَقُومُواْ)

Its derivative QIYAMAN may mean standing like in 4:103 as well as support like in 4:5.

Praise Allah standing, sitting down, or lying down on your sides (QIYAMAN - قِيَامًا)
your property, which Allah has made a means of support for you (QIYAMAN - قِيَاماً)

Which meaning is correct depends on the context. That is why I requested Wakas to consider the fact that الصَّلاَةَ in 4:102 is performed on the war front, open to enemy attack any time now. The believers over there are too tense to attend a class meeting.  

What do you think they do on that active war front as a response to the messenger?s call for QIYAAM and SAJDAH?

I have once taken part in a kind of military combat; so I know. If somebody was crazy enough to give us a Quran lesson over there, I would simply disobey him supposing he was kidding. But I needed to pray.  

Please excuse me but I don?t understand you at the moment because I don?t know what you think الصَّلاَةَ actually is in 4:102 if it is not a prayer consisting of 1 qiyaam + 1 sajdah.

Is it a Quran lesson, a briefing on the battle tactics as a friend here on this forum has suggested, an activity to boost the morale of the believers, or what?

If it is a Quran lesson, can 2:222 be taught over there? If not, are there any objective criteria to decide what can be taught and what can?t be taught? If you are entitled to count out certain teaching points, why aren?t you entitled to give up the whole crazy idea?

Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay

[yesuri3000]

Salam guys

Just something that came to my head as I was reading through the posts. Chapter 5 verse 6 talks about ablution before prayer. If salat does not mean praying, why are we asked to purify ourselves before salat? What is the salat in this verse mean?

The main reason this verse hit me was when looking at the war angle in this debate. 5:6 allows us to use soil if we can not find water for ablution. I think in a war setting where it might be difficult to get some water it could be a lot easier to just use the soil on the ground.

Just a thought

[progressive1993]

Salam guys

Just something that came to my head as I was reading through the posts. Chapter 5 verse 6 talks about ablution before prayer. If salat does not mean praying, why are we asked to purify ourselves before salat? What is the salat in this verse mean?

The main reason this verse hit me was when looking at the war angle in this debate. 5:6 allows us to use soil if we can not find water for ablution. I think in a war setting where it might be difficult to get some water it could be a lot easier to just use the soil on the ground.

Just a thought

Yes, before gathering to read The Quran and follow God's commandments, one is to be clean, or at least, as the example of the soil shows us, mentally prepared.

[1CELOSTNOWFOUND]

Peace

Before considering the point mentioned by yesuri3000, take a look at the following extract from Dr. Qamar's book "The Truth About Salat" regarding 4:43

The fifth point:
Further on, the divine verdict says

?wa in kuntum mardha aou ?ala safarin, aou jaa?a ahadin minkum min al-ghaait, aou laamastum an- Nisaa?a fa lum tajidu maa?an fa tayammamu sa?eedan tayyaban?.

And if you be sick, or on a journey, or one of you returns from lavatory, or you may have touched women, and may not find water, then you perform ?tayammam? with pure/clean clay.

?fa amsahu bi wujuhikum wa ayidiyakum?. So, you rub your faces and hands with such clay.

Studying this Verse a little bit more carefully, we come across a big question. Please note the divine saying: ?.?aou jaa?a ahadin min kum min al-ghaait? ? ?or one of you has returned from lavatory and may not find water, so YOU ALL may perform tayammum?.

According to all the available translations, there is a clear command saying that ?anyone of you may return from lavatory, may not find water, so you all perform tayammum?.

Please note: ?jaa?a ahadin min kum? cannot be translated other than ?any one of you?, whereas, the order is issued for the whole community. Because, if the order was meant for the only one, it must have been like this : ??jaa?a ahadin min kum min al-ghaait, fa huwa fa tayammam?. ?if one of you may return from lavatory, he may perform tayammam?. And,if the plural form was to be used, it should have been like this : ?iza ji?tum min al-ghaait, fa tayammamu?: when you all may return from lavatory, you all may perform tayammam?. Therefore, to emphatically say that, if one of you may return from lavatory, then you all may perform tayammam, definitely requires deliberation. At this point, certainly due to an act by one of the community members, the whole community is obliged to undertake some corrective measure.

Considering the next part of the Verse, we will find that the word ?maa?a? here may not be the literal ?water?. It rather is ?that water? by which is cleansed the filth of evil. And neither is the ?Sa?eedan tayyiban? equivalent to pure/clean clay, which would certainly smear the already clean faces and hands with dust. That which was clean, now becomes
dusty. So?.these words actually mean ?some height which is pure/clean?.

I found this interesting. Are there any other explanation for how this issue of tyammum adresses the individual and the community at the same time or at least, the singular and the plural?


Imraan

[Wakas]

peace Imraan, all,

To me, using the singular in that context implies it is one person doing that act, as in by oneself, then it gives guidance collectively after, e.g. saying all of you come from the toilet, might seem odd. Also, it uses the plural for the other actions, so to make a point will be a stretch I think.

But there could be an easy way to check this, e.g. cross referencing the usage of "any one of you", see where else its used and if plurals follow etc.

[captainneckbeard]

peace all,

For those recently joined members of this site, you may find interesting to note that majority of long-term members here regard it as a minimum of two daily regular/timed salat.

Friends, I must admit that I'm considered an apostate because as a white american texan male, i always felt very uncomfortable and out of place at the masjid and ended up falling away after 6 months of being muslim. However I starting thinking about how Islam seemed to be filled with so much extra manmade filler such as the jews have with their hedge-laws for everything.

I found this site and have been reading much about the miracle of 19 and i'm beginning to feel convicted in my heart for ignoring Allah. It makes sense to me that prayer is 3 times a day, but I can't find any information about how prayer is different from how the sunnis do it. Aside from how often you pray, *how* is the prayer performed? Is it just like mentioned and described on submitters.org ? I want to know how Allah wants me to pray!

[Rana]

Friends, I must admit that I'm considered an apostate because as a white american texan male, i always felt very uncomfortable and out of place at the masjid and ended up falling away after 6 months of being muslim. However I starting thinking about how Islam seemed to be filled with so much extra manmade filler such as the jews have with their hedge-laws for everything.

I found this site and have been reading much about the miracle of 19 and i'm beginning to feel convicted in my heart for ignoring Allah. It makes sense to me that prayer is 3 times a day, but I can't find any information about how prayer is different from how the sunnis do it. Aside from how often you pray, *how* is the prayer performed? Is it just like mentioned and described on submitters.org ? I want to know how Allah wants me to pray!

I came to the same conclusion regarding the number of prayers. Just be aware (maybe you are already) that if you choose to pray 3 times per day as it suggests in Quran (some say too, but back to my point...lol) - if you pray 3x instead of 5x then many Muslims will say you aren't Muslim anyway. I'm really glad that your faith is strengthening. Hamdulillah. 

[Jack]

Friends, I must admit that I'm considered an apostate because as a white american texan male, i always felt very uncomfortable and out of place at the masjid and ended up falling away after 6 months of being muslim. However I starting thinking about how Islam seemed to be filled with so much extra manmade filler such as the jews have with their hedge-laws for everything.

I found this site and have been reading much about the miracle of 19 and i'm beginning to feel convicted in my heart for ignoring Allah. It makes sense to me that prayer is 3 times a day, but I can't find any information about how prayer is different from how the sunnis do it. Aside from how often you pray, *how* is the prayer performed? Is it just like mentioned and described on submitters.org ? I want to know how Allah wants me to pray!

Check out the links on this thread:

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598319.msg201534#msg201534

[ayman]

Peace Hasan,

The expression in يَخِرُّونَ لِلأَذْقَانِ سُجَّدًا  is idiomatic; that is, it has got nothing to do with the chin. Example: "...mighty trees were humbled by a strong downpour of rain, and they fell to the chin." Trees do not have a chin. The chin in this context is nonexistent. You do not have to carry out your physical prostration to something which is nonexistent when prostration is concerned.

You are missing the point. Either the whole expression expression يَخِرُّونَ لِلأَذْقَانِ سُجَّدًا  is idiomatic or not. The word لِلأَذْقَانِ by itself is not an idiom. So you can't say the word "لِلأَذْقَانِ" by itself is idiomatic but the rest of the expression is not just so that you can avoid the issue of inconsistently interpreting "sujud". By the same tokes, had the poem said "...mighty trees were humbled by a strong downpour of rain, and they fell to the chin sujjadan" then no one in his right mind would consider the idiom to be just "the chin" as you underlined. You don't seem to know the basic simple fact that this is not how idioms work.

Peace,

Ayman

[loxbox13]

I don't know if something is wrong with me
At first ,i use to see it clearly 5 times a day, and in the quran , believe it or not
than i started to see it as 3 times a day , and trust me, i see it and convinced
But lately, i understood it as 2 times a day,  and i am convinced
i don't know what next

Maybe wakas will help me, i see the times from  the rubbing of the sun to the closest part of the night
and the same thing in dawn,  when combining all verses and checking them as timing related

but i am not sure yet that salat is standing bowing prostrating or just studing and reading the quran,  the verse that keeps telling me it's the prostrating physically is the one where the companions prayed with the prophet, a group than another

I don( know, maybe next i am gonna be convinced of only 1 salat , well, that's impossible, i believe it's 2 times , and it makes sens, one when u wake up , and a prayer before sleep

Wakas please help; many times what u say make sense or most of the time,
Can u please search the different meanings of the word salat in the quran, I know that some of the words are used for establish the law, or the constitution and all , but still, these 2 times are for what kind of salat