A personal view regarding salat

[brook]

Salaam Imraan.

One of the reasons why I am convinced that الصلاة mentioned in 4:102 is a ritual because it starts with the believers doing قام in it and ends after they prostrate (سجدوا):

"When thou (O Messenger) art with them, and standest to lead them in prayer, Let one party of them stand up (in prayer) with thee, Taking their arms with them: When they finish their prostrations, let them Take their position in the rear. - واذا كنت فيهم فاقمت لهم الصلاة فلتقم طائفة منهم معك ولياخذوا اسلحتهم فاذا سجدوا فليكونوا من ورائكم.

You needn't carry out your briefings regarding strategy BY MEANS OF قام AND سجد.

Another reason is that this ritual is timed (موقوتا) as is explained in verse 103 whereas your so-called briefings regarding war strategy (or actually battle tactics here) are never timed; you give your briefings whenever need be.

Plus, God's truth is that الصلاة mentioned in 4:101-103 cannot be brefings on battle tactics because if you fail to give them to your soldiers to the extent that they understand the fulfillment of the tactics is a matter of life or death for themselves, you lose the battle, which was the case in the battle of Uhud. However, in verse 101 God says that you are entititled to do without الصلاة; that is, the so-called briefings if you are expecting an enemy attack:

"When ye travel through the earth, there is no blame on you if ye fall short of your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you - واذا ضربتم في الارض فليس عليكم جناح ان تقصروا من الصلاة ان خفتم ان يفتنكم الذين كفروا.  

God will never advise you to do without the briefings on battle tactics; otherwise, He will be advising you to lose the battle.

As for the assertion that an army of ten thousand believers cannot perform the prayer in two sessions, that is contrary to the fact. During the Battle of the Dardanelles probably more than five thousand Turkish soldiers performed their prayer all together in one session, probably with the unit heads repeating loudly the imam's words so that they will be heard by all the soldiers who participated. Here is a photo that depicts it:



Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay

[miah]

salat withtime means quanic education and training  class(26/219 and your movement among those who fall compeletly obedient means followers) morning and evening time,only two salat in one day,17/78,11/114,20/130,20/130,33/40,25/5,7/205,6/52,etc...
salat means deen 19/59,19/60 also see these verses
salat means deen allah order aqemudeen in 42/13 to these prophets and same prophets in these verses 21/72,21/73---20/12,20/13 and19/30,19/31  so
                                                                        deen=salat see verses 22/41 also 11/87 follow allah laws is salat means quran
salat means allah laws means waahe see verse 33/56,33/42 and the book bring us dark to light 35/31. in these verses(33/56+42 and35/31)  is clear that quran is salat as well.
To get understandind training (education)of quran in special time is salat Asal and salat Ish ,to act accounding to that education(quran) means to follow allah laws is Abadat(not worship or pray) and to establish allah laws in the socity  need own land and government (22/41+24/55) is called estabish salat and zhaaka means Aqeemudeen(islami system).
Raka is define in verses 77/40+41+42+43+44+45+46+47+48meansmove from badtrack to goodtrack(laws of allah7/3) to giveup forfather track and follow only book of allah 2/170,5/104,10/78,11/62
Sajaada
compeletly accepted quran and follow only allah laws orders  84/20+21+25 etc.....obedient,fully committed(16/48,22/18,16/49,2/116 etc......)my eglish is not good but i try my best.
perfoming rakat salat is frud cheating sharp practices and artificial(made by a man) in islam  before mohammad(sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) (4/142+8/35) and after death  mohammad(sallallahu alaihi wa sallam)  arround ioo years later the salat meaning changed again in the form of namaaz(rahat salat)  29/45

[herbman]

Peace all,

my view:

98:5

وَمَا أُمِرُوا إِلَّا لِيَعْبُدُوا اللَّهَ مُخْلِصِينَ لَهُ الدِّينَ حُنَفَاءَ وَيُقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُوا الزَّكَاةَ وَذَلِكَ دِينُ الْقَيِّمَةِ


And they have been commanded no more than this: to worship Allah, offering Him sincere devotion, being True (in faith); to establish SALAT; and to practise ZAKAT; and that is the Religion Right and Straight.

ZAKAT is a continuous process of self development for betterment.

This formule is well known and I think is the key to understand SALAT.

My view is you cannot "Atoo zakat" reach the state of "continuous process of self development for betterment" if you do not "aqimoo SALAT" = self study and follows the words of GOD!

ZAKAT is the goal , SALAT is the means.

PEACE

[progressive1993]

Peace Ayman,

The "sujud" above is the same as acknowledging that they heard and obeyed.

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ إِذَا قُمْتُمْ إِلَى الصَّلاةِ فاغْسِلُواْ وُجُوهَكُمْ وَأَيْدِيَكُمْ إِلَى الْمَرَافِقِ وَامْسَحُواْ بِرُؤُوسِكُمْ وَأَرْجُلَكُمْ إِلَى الْكَعْبَينِ وَإِن كُنتُمْ جُنُبًا فَاطَّهَّرُواْ وَإِن كُنتُم مَّرْضَى أَوْ عَلَى سَفَرٍ أَوْ جَاء أَحَدٌ مَّنكُم مِّنَ الْغَائِطِ أَوْ لاَمَسْتُمُ النِّسَاء فَلَمْ تَجِدُواْ مَاء فَتَيَمَّمُواْ صَعِيدًا طَيِّبًا فَامْسَحُواْ بِوُجُوهِكُمْ وَأَيْدِيكُم مِّنْهُ مَا يُرِيدُ اللّهُ لِيَجْعَلَ عَلَيْكُم مِّنْ حَرَجٍ وَلَـكِن يُرِيدُ لِيُطَهَّرَكُمْ وَلِيُتِمَّ نِعْمَتَهُ عَلَيْكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَشْكُرُونَ
وَاذْكُرُواْ نِعْمَةَ اللّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَمِيثَاقَهُ الَّذِي وَاثَقَكُم بِهِ إِذْ قُلْتُمْ سَمِعْنَا وَأَطَعْنَا وَاتَّقُواْ اللّهَ إِنَّ اللّهَ عَلِيمٌ بِذَاتِ الصُّدُورِ

Now if you interpret "sujud" as physical prostration then is this how you do your physical prostration?

قُلْ آمِنُواْ بِهِ أَوْ لاَ تُؤْمِنُواْ إِنَّ الَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ الْعِلْمَ مِن قَبْلِهِ إِذَا يُتْلَى عَلَيْهِمْ يَخِرُّونَ لِلأَذْقَانِ سُجَّدًا

Peace,

Ayman

Which verse/verses did you quote above?


Thanks

[brook]

Salaam.

Al-Maidah 6:
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ إِذَا قُمْتُمْ إِلَى الصَّلاةِ فاغْسِلُواْ وُجُوهَكُمْ وَأَيْدِيَكُمْ إِلَى الْمَرَافِقِ وَامْسَحُواْ بِرُؤُوسِكُمْ وَأَرْجُلَكُمْ إِلَى الْكَعْبَينِ وَإِن كُنتُمْ جُنُبًا فَاطَّهَّرُواْ وَإِن كُنتُم مَّرْضَى أَوْ عَلَى سَفَرٍ أَوْ جَاء أَحَدٌ مَّنكُم مِّنَ الْغَائِطِ أَوْ لاَمَسْتُمُ النِّسَاء فَلَمْ تَجِدُواْ مَاء فَتَيَمَّمُواْ صَعِيدًا طَيِّبًا فَامْسَحُواْ بِوُجُوهِكُمْ وَأَيْدِيكُم مِّنْهُ مَا يُرِيدُ اللّهُ لِيَجْعَلَ عَلَيْكُم مِّنْ حَرَجٍ وَلَـكِن يُرِيدُ لِيُطَهَّرَكُمْ وَلِيُتِمَّ نِعْمَتَهُ عَلَيْكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَشْكُرُونَ

Al-Maidah 7:
وَاذْكُرُواْ نِعْمَةَ اللّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَمِيثَاقَهُ الَّذِي وَاثَقَكُم بِهِ إِذْ قُلْتُمْ سَمِعْنَا وَأَطَعْنَا وَاتَّقُواْ اللّهَ إِنَّ اللّهَ عَلِيمٌ بِذَاتِ الصُّدُورِ

Al-Israa 107:
قُلْ آمِنُواْ بِهِ أَوْ لاَ تُؤْمِنُواْ إِنَّ الَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ الْعِلْمَ مِن قَبْلِهِ إِذَا يُتْلَى عَلَيْهِمْ يَخِرُّونَ لِلأَذْقَانِ سُجَّدًا

Samia has once suggested reading Israa 107 and 109 together and pointed out, if I remember correctly, that لِلأَذْقَانِ is an idiomatic expression to mean خشوعا. That is, لأَذْقَانِ here has got nothing to with the human chin.

Al-Israa 109:
وَيَخِرُّونَ لِلأَذْقَانِ يَبْكُونَ وَيَزِيدُهُمْ خُشُوعًا

What is more, even if سجدا is verbal in Al-Maidah 107, سجدوا is physical in An-Nisaa 102, as I tried to explain in my first post on this page:

As for the question whether سجد is physical or verbal (in 4:102) we have to take into account that it follows قام, which is physical for sure, and both are part of an activity of submission to God; and that activity is named salaat in verse 102. When one is physical there is no reason why the other will not be physical.

Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay

[miah]

Any  meeting,assembly,gethering any time in which follower have to be follow  instructions central government(accounting to deen) regarding war 4/102,any emergency circumstance 62/9+10,meeting 42/38 or ,educaction17/78,training(all type training,instruction,health and safety etc. etc.) Quran used word salat as well. reading a Quran in gethering7/204 and individually 2/205,Before salat(learning class or meeting)5/6
but Quran used word salat in different meaning also but basic meaning of salat remain same everywhere in Quran.see these verses,
SALAT(basic meaning)-------------69/31,14/29,38/56,58/8,82/15 etc.
SALAT with time or name(education,training,according to Quran).....24/57,17/78,20/130,11/114 etc. this is class room see 26/219mohammad teach Quran day and night,that is why kaafar says in Quran 25/2,21/5,24/4(kaafar say these are just stories listen day and night). 
SALAT means deen....... Aqeemudeen used only in verses 42/12(21/72,2173,20/12+13,19/30+31 same prophets in 42/12 but word used salat,Also see 19/59+60
SALAT means Quran......33/56,33/42(salee bring dark to light and in 14/1,57/9 al book bring dark to light so salat=book means Quran)Also see book means salat 29/45+7/170.
SALAT means good wish.....9/84,9/103,3/39 etc. ALSO means well done,excellent 9/99
SALAT means government.....24/55+22/14
SALATmeans laws of Allah....11/87,24/55,7/170,70/17+18+19+20,70/22-31,70/32/35,74/42-47,23/1-11,107/1-7,3/134,5/54,19/96,etc...
SALATmeans ALzikr..........Quran means zikr38/1,zikr means Quran 36/69 SO zikr means salat 62/9(33/43+14/1+15/9)

[brook]

I searched for Samia's post but was unable to find it. I came across this info by Wakas instead (http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598162.msg206637#msg206637):

I was reading Mustansir Mir's unique work "Verbal Idioms of The Quran" and in it he cites "fall to the chin" as a verbal idiom meaning extreme humility, for the chin represents pride, it is something to be held high, and to fall down on one's chin is to abase oneself, and when used in AQ means to humble oneself before God, and cites a poem by Imru al-Qays* about how mighty trees were humbled by a strong downpour of rain, and they (mighty trees) "fell to the chin".

*alleged Classical Arabic poet.

For those unfamiliar with Mustansir Mir's work, you can read some of his articles online.

[Wakas]

I find it interesting that people can cite 4:102 in support of sujud=prostration, and those who disagree with that, also cite 4:102 showing it cannot mean that.

Who is right?

Well, one thing is clear, this verse has been discussed in detail before, and it would seem both sides ignore certain aspects of the verse, and unfortunately, this approach usually does not lead anywhere.

I am currently writing an article on SJD, in which I discuss all occurrences, including 4:102, in detail. Hopefully it will be of help.

[brook]

I find it interesting that people can cite 4:102 in support of sujud=prostration, and those who disagree with that, also cite 4:102 showing it cannot mean that.

Who is right?

Well, one thing is clear, this verse has been discussed in detail before, and it would seem both sides ignore certain aspects of the verse, and unfortunately, this approach usually does not lead anywhere.

I am currently writing an article on SJD, in which I discuss all occurrences, including 4:102, in detail. Hopefully it will be of help.

One thing is definite: الصلاة mentioned in 4:101-104 is performed on the active war front while the believers are aware that the enemy may attack any time now. That is why God warns them to be on the alert and keep their weapons within their reach even during الصلاة:

"Let one party of them stand up (in prayer) with thee, Taking their arms with them - فَلْتَقُمْ طَآئِفَةٌ مِّنْهُم مَّعَكَ وَلْيَأْخُذُواْ أَسْلِحَتَهُمْ."

"...the Unbelievers wish, if ye were negligent of your arms and your baggage, to assault you in a single rush - وَدَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ لَوْ تَغْفُلُونَ عَنْ أَسْلِحَتِكُمْ وَأَمْتِعَتِكُمْ فَيَمِيلُونَ عَلَيْكُم مَّيْلَةً وَاحِدَةً"

It is like being on a raft afloat the waves during a flood. The raft is in no way a place where you can take education of any sort. If you treat الصلاة over there as if it were a class meeting, your concentration is crucially weakened and you lose both your dear life and the battle which you are out there to fight.

Your polytheistic enemy and you are like two gladiators out there doomed to kill each. Actually it is most probably the day of hunain described in At-Tawba 25, when "the land, for all that it is wide, did constrain you, and ye turned back in retreat - وَضَاقَتْ عَلَيْكُمُ الأَرْضُ بِمَا رَحُبَتْ ثُمَّ وَلَّيْتُم مُّدْبِرِينَ".



Wakas, please take this fact into account when you are writing your article and concentrate on the words فلتقم and سجدوا only in 4:102 so that you will not digress. I also have studied the related verses as well as I can. I will try to respond, God willing, and try to be of help.

Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay  

[ayman]

Peace Hasan,

Samia has once suggested reading Israa 107 and 109 together and pointed out, if I remember correctly, that لِلأَذْقَانِ is an idiomatic expression to mean خشوعا. That is, لأَذْقَانِ here has got nothing to with the human chin.

Either the whole expression is taken physically or not. If "chin" is not taken physically then "sujaddan" cannot be taken physically. An example that is to be taken physically is in 7:143, where we hear "khar Mousa s'aqan", Moses fell in shock. One cannot take "fell" as idiomatic while "shock" as physical.

I have nothing against physical prostration but then if you really believe that it is physical you have to do it to the chin and not the forehead. It is quite telling that the god uses this particular idiom (which fabricators of poetry later borrowed) since one cannot prostrate physically to the chin and the forehead at the same time. It is either or. So what the god is essentially telling us is that whether we interpret "sujud" physically or non physically, what sectarians are doing is not correct.

What is more, even if سجدا is verbal in Al-Maidah 107, سجدوا is physical in An-Nisaa 102, as I tried to explain in my first post on this page:
As for the question whether سجد is physical or verbal (in 4:102) we have to take into account that it follows قام, which is physical for sure, and both are part of an activity of submission to God; and that activity is named salaat in verse 102. When one is physical there is no reason why the other will not be physical.

There is nothing in the word "qam" that says it is physical for sure. Just read the same word further down in 4:127:

"That you stand for the orphans in equality."

Is this same exact verb as in 4:102 physical?

Peace,

Ayman