News:

About us: a forum for monotheists, and discussion of Islam based on The Quran

Main Menu

difference between islam and today's practices ?

Started by Badr, November 29, 2010, 09:40:41 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Badr

I'll speak from a sunni point of view :

QuoteIn comparing the teachings of Islam as derived from the Book of God to the practices taught and enforced by the popular Sunni and Shia faiths, we find that the list is quite extensive, with some of the highlights as follows:


    * In Islam, the requirement to be a Muslim is to simply accept and live according to the ?Straight Path? (6:151-153) for example, Vs. the Sunni or Shia 5-pillars which come from unauthorized books?

Unauthorized books you said ?

1. Muslim profession of faith or shahada.
Worship God! You have no other god but Him. (Quran 7:59, 7:73; 11:50, 11:84; 23:32)


2. Ritual Prayer or salah.
Attend constantly to prayers and to the middle prayer and stand up truly obedient to Allah. (Quran 2:239)

And keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and bow down with those who bow down. (Quran 2:44)

Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them. (Quran 2:4)

And keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and whatever good you send before for yourselves, you shall find it with Allah; surely Allah sees what you do. (Quran 2:111)


3. Obligatory Charity or zakah.
And keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and bow down with those who bow down. (Quran 2:44)

Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them. (Quran 2:4)

And keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and whatever good you send before for yourselves, you shall find it with Allah; surely Allah sees what you do. (Quran 2:111)


4. Fasting or sawm.
O you who believe, fasting is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you, that you may develop God-consciousness. (Quran 2:183)

The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the distinction; therefore whoever of you is present in the month, he shall fast therein, and whoever is sick or upon a journey, then (he shall fast) a (like) number of other days; Allah desires ease for you, and He does not desire for you difficulty, and (He desires) that you should complete the number and that you should exalt the greatness of Allah for His having guided you and that you may give thanks. (Quran 2:186)


5. Pilgrimage or hajj.
And accomplish the pilgrimage and the visit for Allah, but if, you are prevented, (send) whatever offering is easy to obtain, and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches its destination; but whoever among you is sick or has an ailment of the head, he (should effect) a compensation by fasting or alms or sacrificing, then when you are secure, whoever profits by combining the visit with the pilgrimage (should take) what offering is easy to obtain; but he who cannot find (any offering) should fast for three days during the pilgrimage and for seven days when you return; these (make) ten (days) complete; this is for him whose family is not present in the Sacred Mosque, and be careful (of your duty) to Allah, and know that Allah is severe in requiting (evil). (quran 2:197)

The pilgrimage is (performed in) the well-known months; so whoever determines the performance of the pilgrimage therein, there shall be no intercourse nor fornication nor quarrelling amongst one another; and whatever good you do, Allah knows it; and make provision, for surely the provision is the guarding of oneself, and be careful (of your duty) to Me, O men of understanding. (Quran 2:198)


    *
QuoteIn Islam, abolishing Slavery is taught to be an act of righteousness (90:12-13), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings which encourages slavery under war?

Source ?

    *
QuoteIn Islam, women are never forbidden from praying or fasting during Menstruation (2:222), nor is there a specific dress code (i.e. the Headscarf) imposed on them beyond modesty, Vs. the Sunni and Shia which teach the undermining of women and forcing them to cover their hair and avoid praying or fasting at certain times...

Forcing them ?
It is an act of ease, it is permitted to women not to fast or pray when they have their menstruations.

it is the same for men after having sexual intercourse, you can't pray or fast with sperm, mucus or blood on your genital. While for the first two, once you clean yourself you can perform prayers, it is impossible to keep blood from flowing during menstruations.

In this case women are not obligated to catch up with these prayers or days of fasting while men must.

Headscarf : And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers,... (Quran 24:32)

    *
QuoteIn Islam, a man or women may leave a Will, after settlement of debt (4:12), Vs. Sunnis who refuse to accept wills if there are any direct descendants...

Source ?

    *
QuoteIn Islam, Monogamy is the basis for normal relationships, while polygamy is only allowed in cases involving marrying the mothers of orphans under the man?s guardianship (4:3), Vs. Sunnis where a man may be a polygamist simply if he can afford to, and Shia which allow sex for pleasure (Mut?a)...

Islam did not legalised polygamy, it only came to restrict it to 4 women max and in the frame of marriage. Men have always been polygamous since the beginning of the creation and untill a few years before Islam people were allowed to marry as much women as they want and I dont speak for Arabia only, European and people in all ancient civilisations (Greece, Rome etc...) were polygamous.

Researches proved that only 2% of muslims practice polygamy.

    *
QuoteIn Islam, Divorce is enforceable only after a certain period, and it may be made nullified if the couple reconcile before the end of this period (65:1, 65:4), Vs. Sunni teachings that destroy families by allowing a divorce to occur on the spot with no waiting period and no nullification...

Sources ?

Islam is not against science, we can now know certainly if a woman is pregnant or no by making a simple test so we can bypass the rule of the three months.

Theres no sunni teachings that encourage divorce and islamic countries are those amongst wich the divorce rate is the lowest (USA 49%).

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_div_rat-people-divorce-rate

    *
QuoteIn Islam, Thieves do not have their hands cut-off, but are made to return that which is stolen (12:76), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings which brutally amputate the hands causing disability...


And (as for) the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise. (Quran 5:39)

    *
QuoteIn Islam, no one is allowed to be killed or Stoned for adultery (24:2), Vs. Sunni and Shia laws of stoning married adulterers to death...

I'll explain this later.

    *
QuoteIn Islam, absolute Freedom of Faith is allowed (2:256, 18:29; 109, 88:21-22), Vs. Sunni and Shia requiring apostates to be killed and rejecting the practice of other faiths...

disbeliever =/= apostate

    *
QuoteIn Islam, people are acknowledged as being diverse and each is to be respected for his/her level of spiritual growth. A Submitter ?Muslim? must work to attain the status of Faithful ?Mumin? (49:14), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings that all followers of their religion must think, act, and even look the same (cult syndrome)...

Pffffffff !

    *
QuoteIn Islam, War can only be declared in cases of self-defence - no offensives (2:190), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings allowing raids and attacks on any people who are considered non-Muslim by their standards...

This is my favorite who goes on war against muslims now?

    *
QuoteIn Islam, Pilgrimage is a centre for gathering of nations and for all to witness the benefits of being together (22:27-28), Vs. Sunni and Shia bringing in polytheistic rituals and superstition (touching of black stone, circling 7 times, etc..)...

The Hajj is clearely stated in the Quran and especially the circling that you claim beign a superstition :
?And when We assigned for Abraham the place of the House, saying ?Do not associate Anything with Me, and purify My House for those who go around it and for those who stand and bow and prostrate themselves in worship. And proclaim the Pilgrimage among humankind: They will come to you on foot and on every camel made lean By traveling deep, distant ravines.?? (Quran 22:26-27)

The Holy Kaaba is the house of God as it is said in the Quran : Allah has made the Kaaba, the sacred house, a maintenance for the people, and the sacred month and the offerings and the sacrificial animals with garlands; this is that you may know that Allah knows whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth, and that Allah is the Knower of all things. (Quran 58)

So according to you (who believe in the words of the Quran) ; those who go around the Holy Kaaba wich is the sacred house, the [My] House (of god) as commanded in the Quran are superstitious ?

7 as the layers of the sky
7 as the scales in music
7 as the necessary months to the foetus to become a viable baby
7 as the types of stars classified by luminosity
7 as the days of the week
7 as the periods of the periodic table


    *
QuoteIn Islam, a Year is a luni-solar count made of 365-days (17:12, 9:36), with all the seasons fitting-in-place Vs. Sunnis teaching it to be a lunar one based on 354 days which creates confusion of seasons and time?

???? you trippin right here.
Anyone is free to use the count that fits him best.
Maybe you get confused but this is very clear for those who use it.

Next argument will be "why don't Sunni celebrate Halloween?" ?

"Ramadan is the month during which the Quran was revealed, providing guidance for the people, clear teachings, and the statute book. Those of you who witness this month shall fast therein." (Quran 2:186)

Why do you need to witness the month if it's already decided ? Clearly, it's by witnessing the first moon so the moon decide the months.

    *
QuoteIn Islam, males and females are not required to be Circumcised (32:7), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings requiring all males to be circumcised and females in some cases...

Circumcision for males have been proven to highly reduces the risk of sexual ilnesses, this is even not a subject to discuss atheists get circumcised nowerdays.

    *
QuoteIn Islam, music, statues, gold and silk are all Lawful(7:32-33, 16:116), Vs. Sunni beliefs forbidding silk & gold for men, and forbidding music & statues for all...

I know the hadeeth is not a reliable source for you but gold and silk are forbidden by a hadeeth.

    *
QuoteIn Islam, rule of Government is under the constitution of the Qur'an through consultation and free-speech (5:48, 42:38). Vs. Sunni teachings which allow the rise of dictators or monarchs, and Shia teachings which uphold self-appointed religious leaders based on genealogy.

Do you think muslims are happy with it ?

Do you still think Saudi are a reference when it comes to Islam ? they're not.

You also better stop thinking they are perfect example of muslims, islam aint a vaccine for stupidity, if you are stupid you'll be a stupid muslim and if you are wise you'll be a wise muslim.

jonny_k

Peace "Badr",

Quote from: Badr on November 29, 2010, 09:40:41 AM
I'll speak from a sunni point of view :
Unauthorized books you said ?

JK- Unauthorized by the Quran we mean.

Quote
1. Muslim profession of faith or shahada.
Worship God! You have no other god but Him. (Quran 7:59, 7:73; 11:50, 11:84; 23:32)

JK- That is the Quran Alone Muslim shahaada, yes, the one we consider true. HOWEVER it is not the complete sunni shahaada< or that of shiites. The sunnis have "muhammadurasoolullah" and anyone must recite that at least once along with the first part to become Muslim according to them.

Quote
2. Ritual Prayer or salah.
Attend constantly to prayers and to the middle prayer and stand up truly obedient to Allah. (Quran 2:239)

And keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and bow down with those who bow down. (Quran 2:44)


Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them. (Quran 2:4)

And keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and whatever good you send before for yourselves, you shall find it with Allah; surely Allah sees what you do. (Quran 2:111)

JK- Has nothing to do with ritual prayers as the sunnis/shittes do with a fixed no of rakats, sajdas and rukoos. INFACT the verse mentioning sajda and ruku does not necessarily make it part of salat. Just because they're connected by the "wa" doesn't make them part of one another in all cases. Consider "As-salat WA az-zakat". Would you say Zakat is part of salat then too?

Quote
3. Obligatory Charity or zakah.
And keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and bow down with those who bow down. (Quran 2:44)

Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them. (Quran 2:4)

And keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and whatever good you send before for yourselves, you shall find it with Allah; surely Allah sees what you do. (Quran 2:111)

JK- Zakat basically means "to purify" and while in some contexts it can imply charity, it need not do so.

Quote
4. Fasting or sawm.
O you who believe, fasting is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you, that you may develop God-consciousness. (Quran 2:183)

The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the distinction; therefore whoever of you is present in the month, he shall fast therein, and whoever is sick or upon a journey, then (he shall fast) a (like) number of other days; Allah desires ease for you, and He does not desire for you difficulty, and (He desires) that you should complete the number and that you should exalt the greatness of Allah for His having guided you and that you may give thanks. (Quran 2:186)

JK- There is ongoing debate as to what Ramadan actually means and GOD will judge us by the best of our intentions. HOWEVER deriving the meaning from hadith would be utterly stupid since those as I showed are unreliable even in basic things of nature(rem the seasons caused by hellfire)?

Quote
5. Pilgrimage or hajj.
And accomplish the pilgrimage and the visit for Allah, but if, you are prevented, (send) whatever offering is easy to obtain, and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches its destination; but whoever among you is sick or has an ailment of the head, he (should effect) a compensation by fasting or alms or sacrificing, then when you are secure, whoever profits by combining the visit with the pilgrimage (should take) what offering is easy to obtain; but he who cannot find (any offering) should fast for three days during the pilgrimage and for seven days when you return; these (make) ten (days) complete; this is for him whose family is not present in the Sacred Mosque, and be careful (of your duty) to Allah, and know that Allah is severe in requiting (evil). (quran 2:197)

The pilgrimage is (performed in) the well-known months; so whoever determines the performance of the pilgrimage therein, there shall be no intercourse nor fornication nor quarrelling amongst one another; and whatever good you do, Allah knows it; and make provision, for surely the provision is the guarding of oneself, and be careful (of your duty) to Me, O men of understanding. (Quran 2:198)

JK- Do you see that Hajj is in the well-known MONTHS(plural) not singular so one can perform it during a multitude of days in our understadning instead of cramping millions of people in one area on one day. BESIDES there is ongoing debate as to whether Hajj actually even implies a ritual pilgrimage and even whether the kaaba in mecca is actually the kaaba the Quran is talking about and if Kaaba, masjidul Haraam are actually even physical palces. To be honest this makes very little sense to me especially on a spherical planet where theres always two directions one can face and reach the same place and at the point right opposite to mecca on the globe ALL DIRECTIONS POINT to the kaaba with equal distance. The problem becomes even greater when we're in outer space and Mecca of the earth is turned away from us because of the earth's rotation etc etc.
Ill continue with the rest in a 2nd post. GOD Bless!
[19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

jonny_k

Peace "Badr",

Quote
    *
Source ?

JK- Do sunnis not take slaves should there be a war between them and the unbelievers like in the west today? If not what would they do with prisoners of war?

Quote
    *
Forcing them ?

JK- Yes or have you never been to Afghsnistan, Iran or Saudia. In a hadith Islamic state no woman can go out without her head being covered and the rest of what is termed as her "aurat".

Quote
It is an act of ease, it is permitted to women not to fast or pray when they have their menstruations.

JK- Either you're ignorant or deliberately using taqiyya to lie here. Women are NOT ALLOWED to fast or pray in their periods EVEN IF THEY WANTED TO. Name me any of the major schools of thoughts in sunni Islam that would state otherwise.

Quote
it is the same for men after having sexual intercourse, you can't pray or fast with sperm, mucus or blood on your genital. While for the first two, once you clean yourself you can perform prayers, it is impossible to keep blood from flowing during menstruations.

JK- There is the potential for always small amounts of sperm to be released at any time so this would be toally impractical. If you define negligible amounts then women too can use sheets to prevent their blood from dripping so then they shouldn't be unclean. BESIDES nowhere does your FASTING get anulled or that a man cannot fast while his sperm came out according to sunnis.

Quote
In this case women are not obligated to catch up with these prayers or days of fasting while men must.

JK- You try to make it sound good whilst it isn't. Also there is no catching up of prayer in hadith. Infact a Mufti of a sunni school of thoight told me exlusively that "catch up prayers" are BIDDAH(innovation) i.e. the Prophet never mentioned such were even possible.

Quote
Headscarf : And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers,... (Quran 24:32)

JK- It says to use their headcoverings(could be tradition back then) and cover their breats with it. Besides "khumr" can also simply mean "any cover" as I mentioned before. In any case nowhere does the verse say to cover the head.

Quote
    *
Source ?

JK- Sunnis and shiites state that since the Quran in what they call a later sura defines the inheritance already from that time on the inheritance must be in accordance to the numbers laid out in there by GOD. HOWEVER if you look in that verse carefully you'll see that GOD says "this AFTER ANY WILL THAT HAS BEEN LEFT":
Y.Ali 4:11 God (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases ('s) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by God; and God is All-knowing, Al- wise.

NOW if you say there are reognized sunnis/shitte Imams in the world amongst the majority of sunni folk who state otherwise, point that out.

Quote
    *
Islam did not legalised polygamy, it only came to restrict it to 4 women max and in the frame of marriage. Men have always been polygamous since the beginning of the creation and untill a few years before Islam people were allowed to marry as much women as they want and I dont speak for Arabia only, European and people in all ancient civilisations (Greece, Rome etc...) were polygamous.

JK- Nobody is saying Islam legalized polygamy. The point was that sunnis/shia interpret the Quranic verse to be applicable with only one restriction i.e. treat them justly under which they don't even include the consent of the former wife.

Quote
Researches proved that only 2% of muslims practice polygamy.

JK- This, if true, could just be because of the secular infleunce in many "Islamic" countruies these days and there recvognition thereby that this lifestyle is better.

Quote
    *
Sources ?

JK- If the husband pronounces talaq 3 times many "scholars" would accept that as a divorce instantly. This may not be the case with all hadith scholars though I'd have to agree.

Quote
Islam is not against science, we can now know certainly if a woman is pregnant or no by making a simple test so we can bypass the rule of the three months.

JK- So one can bypass a Quranic rule using science but one cannot bypass a hadith or call it absurd if it toally contradicts science? How ludicrous is that? The waiting period might have other advantages than knowing if the woman is pregnant.

Quote
Theres no sunni teachings that encourage divorce and islamic countries are those amongst wich the divorce rate is the lowest (USA 49%).

JK- It's the standard of living one must look at first and determine whether the society is well off not that which has the highest divorce rates is automatically worse off. Better to get a divorce than to live a life of hell.

Quote
And (as for) the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise. (Quran 5:39)

JK- Did you note that the same word for cut (qt') is also used where the women in Joseph's time "CUT" their hands? Are you telling me they cut their entire hands or just a small mark:
12:31 When she heard of their malicious talk, she sent for them and prepared a banquet for them: she gave each of them a knife: and she said (to Joseph), "Come out before them." When they saw him, they did extol him, and (in their amazement) cut their hands: they said, "God preserve us! no mortal is this! this is none other than a noble angel!"

BTW when i read the OT Bible I went through the whole story to look for this event of women cutting their hands but couldnt find it. It is IMO no coincidence that GOD mentions this event in the Quran and clarifying the connection to "cutting".

Quote
    *
I'll explain this later.

JK- I hope yu do.

Quote
    *
disbeliever =/= apostate

JK- The Quran also nowehere asks for apostates i.e. those who reject the Quran after having accepted it, to be killed. Ill continue in another post. GOD Bless!
[19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

jonny_k

Peace again "Badr",

Quote
   *
Pffffffff !

JK- Nothing to say. The reality is very much so. People who follow hadith want to emulate Muhammad down to how he dressed, ate, urinated, etc etc. Ridiculous in our understanidng.

Quote
   *
This is my favorite who goes on war against muslims now?

JK- But this is in self defense isnt it after "muslims" have continuously killed people just for preaching their religion, especially CHristinity, in their contries. People cant take that forever. And whilst i don't agree to cause collateral damage absolutely agree in fighting those Mullahs who make laws to mke women wear head scarfs, force them to obey their husbands with exception of violations against sharia elements, killing apostates, stoning married adulterers etc etc coz all these are an attack on humanity in general.

Quote
   *
The Hajj is clearely stated in the Quran and especially the circling that you claim beign a superstition :
?And when We assigned for Abraham the place of the House, saying ?Do not associate Anything with Me, and purify My House for those who go around it and for those who stand and bow and prostrate themselves in worship. And proclaim the Pilgrimage among humankind: They will come to you on foot and on every camel made lean By traveling deep, distant ravines.?? (Quran 22:26-27)

The Holy Kaaba is the house of God as it is said in the Quran : Allah has made the Kaaba, the sacred house, a maintenance for the people, and the sacred month and the offerings and the sacrificial animals with garlands; this is that you may know that Allah knows whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth, and that Allah is the Knower of all things. (Quran 58)

So according to you (who believe in the words of the Quran) ; those who go around the Holy Kaaba wich is the sacred house, the [My] House (of god) as commanded in the Quran are superstitious ?

JK- "Twf" can mean just "to visit" not necessarily go around. But for this you should read detailed articles on Hajj on the main site first to at least understand our view.

Quote
7 as the layers of the sky

JK- As quantified by us currently, though there are more sublayers now if you imply the atmosphere. There is no evidence for 7 smawaat as yet.

Quote
7 as the scales in music

JK- This has been standardized by us humans. It's not necessarily so. Look up scales of music here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_scales#Scales_in_Western_music
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_scales

Quote
7 as the necessary months to the foetus to become a viable baby

JK- One event selected out of alarge no of possble events in the cosmos.

Quote
7 as the types of stars classified by luminosity

JK- Same as above.

Quote
7 as the days of the week

JK- Man made possibly first set by Jews from the OT Bible.

Quote
7 as the periods of the periodic table

JK- Another event taken out of many possible events and given significance.

Quote
   *
???? you trippin right here.
Anyone is free to use the count that fits him best.
Maybe you get confused but this is very clear for those who use it.

Next argument will be "why don't Sunni celebrate Halloween?" ?

"Ramadan is the month during which the Quran was revealed, providing guidance for the people, clear teachings, and the statute book. Those of you who witness this month shall fast therein." (Quran 2:186)

Why do you need to witness the month if it's already decided ? Clearly, it's by witnessing the first moon so the moon decide the months.

   *

JK- I agree with you we vary on this issue. HOWEVER as I've said there's ongoing debate as to what Ramadan might mean and we're not sure as yet. At least I'm not.

Quote
Circumcision for males have been proven to highly reduces the risk of sexual ilnesses, this is even not a subject to discuss atheists get circumcised nowerdays.

JK- WRONG there is huge controversy in the scientific community regarding this. Checkout http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AfPajxmfbE&feature=related and google "circumcision aids fraud".


Quote
   *
I know the hadeeth is not a reliable source for you but gold and silk are forbidden by a hadeeth.

   *

JK- Yes they are but we say this prohibition is absurd.

Quote
Do you think muslims are happy with it ?

Do you still think Saudi are a reference when it comes to Islam ? they're not.
You also better stop thinking they are perfect example of muslims, islam aint a vaccine for stupidity, if you are stupid you'll be a stupid muslim and if you are wise you'll be a wise muslim.

JK- IT IS according to the "scholars" in saudi arabia who have studied hadith literature just like your "imams". Now by your logic hadith scholars in mecca should be more knowledgable since they are closer to the birth place of Muhammad IYU, rnt they plus they study intensively hadith. ALSO the Prophet said in one hadith that LEADERS will come from the Quraish tribe:
Volume 9, Book 89, Number 329:

   Narrated Jabir bin Samura:

   I heard the Prophet saying, "There will be twelve Muslim rulers (who will rule all the Islamic world)." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish."

So if anywhere is a true Muslim ruler, he should be in the heartland of sunni/shia "islam". GOD Bless!

[19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.