Quran only mistakes

[Ayisha]

Allaah says that the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is the judge of our disputes [4:65]

This is another proof that Hadeeth is a crucial element of our Religion, and if you reject the Hadeeth, you are rejecting the order of Allaah to obey the Messenger and accept him as the judge in all our disputes.

I hate to break this to you, but you do know he died 1378 years ago don't you?

How can he be the judge in our disputes NOW?

How can you obey him NOW?

By following what he followed, which is Quran.

You really need to open your eyes my friend. 

[Maseehullaah]

Peace on you

I find the posts by maseehullah amusing because he mentions logic and he mentions ignorance and then demonstrates lack of logic and ignorance not only about what the quraan says but ignorance about logical fallacies as well.

His basic argument that he put forth in defense of his entire straw structure is based on a logical fallacy!

Had he not been ignorant about the quraan and logical fallacies and had he not been illogical he would have seen the truth easily that his position and basic argument is completely refuted from the quraan and from logic and is untenable.

Although your post reveals that you too are totally ignorant of the Quraan, I at least congratulate you for having the courage to engage me in a debate using actual arguments, and not like the rest of the people on this forum who didn't even try to discuss with me academically, but only using their emotions and slogans.

I do believe that majority of the quraan is from that one God (almost 99.99% of it)
Currently I am in doubt about a few vowels and words and verses in the quraan being from the one God (I am not talking about 9:128-129)

Then you are not a true believer, because the true believers are those who believe in the ENTIRE Quraan, they don't accept part of it and reject other part of it:

آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا


We believe in it, all of it is from our Lord [3:7]

But you fall in the category, regarding whom Allaah says:

أَفَتُؤْمِنُونَ بِبَعْضِ الْكِتَابِ وَتَكْفُرُونَ بِبَعْضٍ

Is it a part of the Book you believe in, and you disbelieve in a part? [2:85]

I believe in ALL signs (ayaat) of the God and that they are not limited to the quraan alone as per the quraan itself

Indeed, and one of the Signs of Allaah is His sending of the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم. Because Allaah didn't just send the Quraan, He sent the Quraan AND the Messenger. You can't have one without the other.

I do believe that there were revelations outside the quraan to Muhammad the messenger and the khaatam of the prophets, as implied in the quraan itself (2:143, 2:187, 3:123-126, 8:7, 33:37, 48:15, 66:3):

Then logically, you must accept this fact that true believers are commanded not only to follow the Quraan, but to follow ALL Revelation from Allaah to His Messenger, as Allaah says:

الَّذِينَ يَتَّبِعُونَ الرَّسُولَ النَّبِيَّ الأُمِّيَّ الَّذِي يَجِدُونَهُ مَكْتُوبًا عِندَهُمْ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ وَالإِنْجِيلِ يَأْمُرُهُم بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَيَنْهَاهُمْ عَنِ الْمُنكَرِ وَيُحِلُّ لَهُمُ الطَّيِّبَاتِ وَيُحَرِّمُ عَلَيْهِمُ الْخَبَآئِثَ وَيَضَعُ عَنْهُمْ إِصْرَهُمْ وَالأَغْلاَلَ الَّتِي كَانَتْ عَلَيْهِمْ فَالَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ بِهِ وَعَزَّرُوهُ وَنَصَرُوهُ وَاتَّبَعُواْ النُّورَ الَّذِيَ أُنزِلَ مَعَهُ أُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ


Those who follow the Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet whom they found written about in the Torah and the Gospel, He commands them the Good, and forbids them the evil, and allows them the Pure things, and forbids them the impure, and he releases them from their heavy burdens, and from the fetters that were upon them. So those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the Light which has been sent down with him, it is they who will be successful. [7:157]

Secondly,
Let's see what the god wants us to follow out of his revelations:

And follow the best of what has been sent down to you from your Lord, before the retribution comes to you suddenly when you least expect it. (39:55)

What is the best of what has been sent down from Him?

The Best of that which Allaah has sent down to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم is indeed the Holy Quraan. No doubt about it.

Yet this same verse you quoted is another proof that that Allaah has sent down other revelation besides this Quraan, i.e. the Hadith Qudsi for example.

The point is, Allaah has commanded us in numerous verses in the Quraan to follow everything which has been revealed to the Messenger of Allaah صلى الله عليه وسلم.

Yes, Allaah commands us to follow the best of that which has been sent down to him by his Lord, yet He never says that you will follow that exclusively, meaning, to the exclusion to all other revelation.

So the logical fallacy on your part is to take something which is general command and turn it into an exclusive command.

If Allaah said to follow nothing but the Quraan, or follow nothing but the best of that which He sent down, you would be right, but when He said to follow the best of that which is sent down to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم, it was not an exclusive command to follow only that.

This sign proves that Muhammad the messenger of the god wanted us to follow only the quraan because of the wording "that I may warn you WITH IT". He doesn't say "that I may warn you with it and my hadith and sunna". So even though there had been other inspirations to him he warned the people only with the quraan so in order to follow him it is enough to follow the quraan only.

Once again you repeat the same logical fallacy, which is turning something general into exclusive.

Allaah also commanded the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم to stand in prayer during the night, except for a little [73:2]. Does it mean that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم didn't have to stand for prayer at other times? Obviously that's not the case, because Allaah enjoined upon the Prophet to pray at other times as well besides the night in various verses of the Quraan.

therefore, don't take something which is general and make it exclusive, unless the verse itself is making it exclusive.

And thus We have inspired to you an Arabic Quran, so that you may warn the capital town and all around it, and to warn about the Day of Gathering that is inevitable. A group will be in the Paradise, and a group in Hell. (42:7)

Again Muhammad the messenger of the god is being asked to warn with the quraan only.

I didn't see the word "only" in the verse you quoted.

Thirdly,

The logical fallacy

Just because Muhammad the messenger of the god was inspired other than the quraan in addition to the quraan DOES NOT mean that we have to or need to follow the inspirations other than the quraan, IF the quraan is complete and fully detailed and has the details of everything relevant to our guidance.

If the quraan is fully detailed and contains the details of everything relevant to our guidance, then following the quraan would be ENOUGH, and we don't need to follow the other inspirations outside the quraan.

The Quraan is general and requires further explanation, that is why Allaah said that the duty of the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم is to explain the Reminder which is sent down [16:44]

The Quraan also commands us to take whatever the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم allows us, and abstain from whatever he forbids.

In another thread I gave a perfect example of this principle and why it is necessary. In the Quraan, Allaah says He has only forbidden four things to eat: 1) dead meat, 2) blood, 3) pork, 4) any meat upon which other than Allaah's Name has been pronounced [2:173] Therefore, for those who follow only the Quraan as guidance, all other meat is permissible, including dog meat, cat meat, snake meat, eagle, hawk, etc.

Yet we know for a fact that these animals and their meat is just as impure as the pig, and that is why we know from the Hadeeth that the Messenger of Allaah صلى الله عليه وسلم prohibited the eating of any animal that has fangs, and any bird that has talons.

But you as a "Quraan-only" follower will have no problem eating the impure meat of dogs, cats, snakes, and eagles. You claim to follow the way of Abraham, but actually you are following the way of pagans, chinese, etc., who eat these impure meat. Even in the Torah, these impure meats are forbidden.

So yes, the Quraan is indeed fully detailed...NOT because it contains all the instructions and regulations for our guidance...but because it tells us to obey the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم and to take whatever he allows us, and abstain from whatever he forbids us.

The Quraan is not fully detailed in the way you think, otherwise why would Allaah not mention in the Quraan that dog meat, cat meat, snake meat, etc., is forbidden, and why in the Quraan would He tell us to take everything the Messenger allows, and abstain from everything He forbids?

[Ayisha]

  quantum1,

What a wonderul post, made me all goose bumps reading that.

Excellent

[Maseehullaah]

I hate to break this to you, but you do know he died 1378 years ago don't you?

How can he be the judge in our disputes NOW?

The Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم is gone, but his Message is with us, and by his message, which is contained in the Hadeeth, we are commanded by Allaah to make him as the judge in all our disputes.

It is interesting also to note that the Messenger of Allaah صلى الله عليه وسلم said:

‏ ‏ألا إني أوتيت الكتاب ومثله معه ألا يوشك رجل شبعان على ‏ ‏أريكته ‏ ‏يقول عليكم بهذا القرآن فما وجدتم فيه من حلال فأحلوه وما وجدتم فيه من حرام فحرموه

Verily, I have been given the Book, and something like it. But a time will come in a man on a couch will say to you, "we have this Quraan, so whatever we find in it as permissible, so it is permissible, and whatever we find in it as forbidden, so it is forbidden..." [Sunan Abee Dawood: Kitaab us Sunnah]

Now see how true this prophecy has been fulfilled!

now look what happens when you reject the Sunnah of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم, you go astray and enter into doubt, and having doubt is a sign of faithlessness and misguidance:

Currently I am in doubt about a few vowels and words and verses in the currently existing written quraan being from the one God

الْحَقُّ مِن رَّبِّكَ فَلاَ تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْمُمْتَرِينَ

Th Truth is from your Lord, so be not at all in doubt! [2:147]

[Ayisha]

The Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم is gone, but his Message is with us, and by his message, which is contained in the Hadeeth, we are commanded by Allaah to make him as the judge in all our disputes.

How? What he judged by when he was alive was quran. How can you go to him NOW and ask him to judge in any dispute now? You have a dispute right here and right now, did you ask him to judge in this dispute for you? How will you do that?

It is interesting also to note that the Messenger of Allaah صلى الله عليه وسلم said:


‏ ‏ألا إني أوتيت الكتاب ومثله معه ألا يوشك رجل شبعان على ‏ ‏أريكته ‏ ‏يقول عليكم بهذا القرآن فما وجدتم فيه من حلال فأحلوه وما وجدتم فيه من حرام فحرموه

Verily, I have been given the Book, and something like it. But I time will come in a man on a couch will say to you, "we have this Quraan, so whatever we find in it as permissible, so it is permissible, and whatever we find in it as forbidden, so it is forbidden..." [Sunan Abee Dawood: Kitaab us Sunnah]

Now see how true this prophecy has been fulfilled!

see how this is NOT a prophesy from Quran. Prophets dont invent their own prophesies, they come from Allah.

now look what happens when you reject the Sunnah of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم, you go astray and enter into doubt, and having doubt is a sign of faithlessness and misguidance:


الْحَقُّ مِن رَّبِّكَ فَلاَ تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْمُمْتَرِينَ

Th Truth is from your Lord, so be not at all in doubt! [2:147]

We have no doubt, you do have doubts, you do not believe what the Quran says.

Allah says it is complete and fully detailed, all that you need for your salvation is to THINK and REFLECT on what it says. His signs ARE all around, yet your eyes are closed.

As Quantum1 said, it is THE BEST Hadith. You it seems do not believe it is complete and fully detailed and want to find details in those other books written by man, men born over 200 years after the prophet died.

Allah says Do they not reflect on the Quran? If it was from any other than God they would have found in it many a discrepancy. (4:82), which hadith is FULL of. If you do not agree to that then you confirm you have NEVER read them apart from the odd one picked out to make your point. Go sit and read the 9 (Abridged) volumes of Sahih Bukhari, or Maliks Muwatta even better, then tell me there are no contradictions, tell me you actually believe that our prophet would have SAID and DONE some of those rediculous and even sick things, but do this AFTER reading Quran from cover to cover and THINKING about it. Then come tell me that Muhammed in Quran and the Muhammed in hadith are the same.

[Noon de Plume]

Hadith are not rumors or hearsay. They are the words of the Prophet (peace be upon him) narrated by his Companions. They were not created 200 years after the Quraan, they were compiled (as in collected and written down) much earlier than that. For example, the Muwatta of Imam Malik was compiled in the before the third century Hijri, quite early on. In fact, many ahadith were compiled even before that, within the first century of Islaam, such as the Sahifah of Hammam ibn Munnabih, a student of the companion Abu Hurairah, and the Musannaf of Abdur Razzaq as-Sanaa'i.

So first study the history of Hadith before you make such ignorant statements.

Mālik ibn Anas ibn Malik (c. 711 ? 795 or 100 years later)

Thus you advocate;
a goat responsible for eating a missing surah,
the killing of puppies especially black ones,
the marrying 9 year olds and cutting her hand for stealing an egg,
attribute bizarre vile grotesque behavior and want people to follow.

This verse doesn't address my challenge, which is to show a single verse from the Quraan which says only the Quraan is revealed by Allaah to the Prophet (peace be upon him)

Sure it does, you cannot comprehend a simple sentence and lack basic logic; here lets simplify it...

2:2 this the book no doubt in it (i.e. this book, not other books), a guidance (hello!) for those mindful of God.

Now your turn; why keep running away skip answering; afraid it will be a witness against you?

Post one hadith "no doubt in it" swear by God stake your soul you'll be cursed if it is not true?

[Magnus]

In the Quraan, Allaah says He has only forbidden four things to eat: 1) dead meat, 2) blood, 3) pork, 4) any meat upon which other than Allaah's Name has been pronounced [2:173] Therefore, for those who follow only the Quraan as guidance, all other meat is permissible, including dog meat, cat meat, snake meat, eagle, hawk, etc.

Yet we know for a fact that these animals and their meat is just as impure as the pig, and that is why we know from the Hadeeth that the Messenger of Allaah صلى الله عليه وسلم prohibited the eating of any animal that has fangs, and any bird that has talons.

But you as a "Quraan-only" follower will have no problem eating the impure meat of dogs, cats, snakes, and eagles. You claim to follow the way of Abraham, but actually you are following the way of pagans, chinese, etc., who eat these impure meat. Even in the Torah, these impure meats are forbidden.

So yes, the Quraan is indeed fully detailed...NOT because it contains all the instructions and regulations for our guidance...but because it tells us to obey the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم and to take whatever he allows us, and abstain from whatever he forbids us.

The Quraan is not fully detailed in the way you think, otherwise why would Allaah not mention in the Quraan that dog meat, cat meat, snake meat, etc., is forbidden, and why in the Quraan would He tell us to take everything the Messenger allows, and abstain from everything He forbids?

This is a way of thinking typical by hadith followers:
1: you adhere to a complicated set of rules
2: you can't find support for these rules in the Qur'an
3: you conclude that the Qur'an must be deficient

I have never eaten these strange meats you mention, nor ever felt the temptation - perhaps this is simply something a God-fearing human need not be told? Or maybe God is fine with people eating eagles and snakes? (how do you know "for a fact" that they are impure without relying on hadith?)
Either way it's a non-issue and the Quran stays fully detailed and guidance enough for the believers.

The same line of reasoning is commonly applied to how we pray:
1: sunnis place tremendous importance on the outer form of the ritual prayer (which foot gets washed first, where are hands placed when standing, number of rakas etc.)
2: there's no mention in the Qur'an about these things
3: sunnis conclude that the Qur'an is deficient.

To me it seems much more likely that God places little or no importance on which foot we wash first, where we place our hands or how many times we "go through the motions".

[Maseehullaah]

I have never eaten these strange meats you mention, nor ever felt the temptation - perhaps this is simply something a God-fearing human need not be told? Or maybe God is fine with people eating eagles and snakes?

Look how you yourself are in doubt and cannot seem to make up your mind! On one hand you are saying God-fearing humans automatically don't need to eat dog meat or snake meat or eagle meat, therefore it is not mentioned in Quraan, on other hand you are saying maybe God doesn't have a problem with eating these impure animals!

So you are woefully contradicting yourself.

Fact of matter is, if it is automatically part of one's conscience not to eat dog meat, so why do some many millions, maybe billions of people eat dog meat and snake meat (especially in East Asia, China, Korea, Vietnam)?

Allaah says in the Quraan that He has only forbidden pork, blood, dead meat, and meat sacrificed in the name of other than Allaah. That means, for you "Quraan-only followers", everything else is good to eat for you, including dog and snake (how disgusting!)

(how do you know "for a fact" that they are impure without relying on hadith?)

In Quraan, verse [7:157], and [59:7], Allaah tells us that the duty of His Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم is to tell us the good things we are allowed, and the impure things which are forbidden. If everything is already laid out in the Quraan, why Allaah tells us to obey the Messenger in this regard?

Either way it's a non-issue and the Quran stays fully detailed and guidance enough for the believers.

what kind of guidance is that which you are saying that dog meat and snake meat is good and lawful? That is not guidance, except the guidance of the Devil.

1: sunnis place tremendous importance on the outer form of the ritual prayer (which foot gets washed first, where are hands placed when standing, number of rakas etc.)

My friend, the Quraan itself tells us the tremendous importance of the outer form of the Salaat, including which parts of the body to wash during ablution (i.e. face, hands up to the elbow, to rub the head, and the feet up to the ankles), as well as the command to bathe the entire body for major ritual purification [5:6]

If the outer form of the prayer is not important, why the Quraan goes into so much detail about the ablution and method of purification?

To me it seems much more likely that God places little or no importance on which foot we wash first, where we place our hands or how many times we "go through the motions".

the Quraan says to obey the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم, who said: "Pray the way you see me praying".

[Maseehullaah]

Thus you advocate;
a goat responsible for eating a missing surah,
the killing of puppies especially black ones,
the marrying 9 year olds and cutting her hand for stealing an egg,
attribute bizarre vile grotesque behavior and want people to follow.

Sure it does, you cannot comprehend a simple sentence and lack basic logic; here lets simplify it...

2:2 this the book no doubt in it (i.e. this book, not other books), a guidance (hello!) for those mindful of God.

Now your turn; why keep running away skip answering; afraid it will be a witness against you?

Post one hadith "no doubt in it" swear by God stake your soul you'll be cursed if it is not true?

I believe in all authentic ahadeeth which have no doubt in it at all.

I swear by Allaah that each and every authentic hadeeth which is proven to be the words of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم is evidence, as Allaah Himself says to take witnesses as evidence.

The authentic ahadeeth are narrated by many witnesses with unbroken chain of narrators, and fulfills the criterion of Allaah to investigate and verify any news that comes to us with witnesses [49:6]

Even if you study the history of the compilation of the Quraan, you see that it was also compiled during the caliphate of the third Khaleefah, 'Uthmaan ibn Affaan رضى الله عنه, who had each and every single verse of the Quraan testified to by witnesses.

[rraza]

Fact of matter is, if it is automatically part of one's conscience not to eat dog meat, so why do some many millions, maybe billions of people eat dog meat and snake meat (especially in East Asia, China, Korea, Vietnam)?

its called cultural differences. one thing that may seem disgusting in one culture may be the norm in another culture. in australia ppl eat kangaroo meat.apparently its very healthy, lean meat. but i fr one would never like to willingly eat it.why? because it says so in the quran? no way. its coz i dont like the idea of it. same thing with dog meat and snake meat. btw many of my sunni friends have tried snake meat. putting that aside though, coz u cant judge a belief by its followers, God has set certain parameters in the quran that ur not supposed to break.
by saying that the prophet claimed things other than the ones mentione din the quran as haram, ur saying that the prophet added to the religion, which he did not. He was just a messenger and explainedhow to live out the quran, he did not come to add to it.

Allaah says in the Quraan that He has only  forbidden pork, blood, dead meat, and meat sacrificed in the name of other than Allaah. That means, for you "Quraan-only followers", everything else is good to eat for you, including dog and snake (how disgusting!)

first of all the thing u added in brackets is seriously offensive and indicate how close minded you appear to be. secondly,in order to understand a different culture u have to stop thinking in themindset of ur present one. u eat lamb/goat/chicken/cow/camel? well a vegetarian could easily come up here and tell you that he/she finds u disgusting. please dont display such intolerance and write offensive comments on this forum.

In Quraan, verse [7:157], and [59:7], Allaah tells us that the duty of His Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم is to tell us the good things we are allowed, and the impure things which are forbidden. If everything is already laid out in the Quraan, why Allaah tells us to obey the Messenger in this regard?

BECAUSE THE PROPHET IS THE ONE TRANSMITTING THE MESSAGE. over here obeying God in the quran and obeying messenger is the same thing because the messenger is telling teh ppl wat God wants him to say. this line is not just reserved fr prophet muhammad, but also fr other prophets mentioned in the quran, if im not mistaken. so many verses of the quran start with "Say...".."" THAT is wat the prophet said fr sure, THAT is wat were supposed to follow, because if we dont follow the prophet, were not following approximately 1/3 of the quran.

[quotewhat kind of guidance is that which you are saying that dog meat and snake meat is good and lawful? That is not guidance, except the guidance of the Devil.
][/quote]
o please, not evrything should be seen through the monoslit glasses that u view the world with. many countries have cultures that do that. if u were born in a country where dogs were being sold fr meat instead of chicken im sure we wudnt be having this debate.

the Quraan says to obey the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم, who said: "Pray the way you see me praying".

id love to, except that he isnt with us anymore. and i knowbetter than to let so called scholars dupe me into believing stuff abt him that doesnt make sense and that doesnt feel right.