Author Topic: On Salah and Sujood - an indepth study  (Read 5702 times)

ths

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 347
  • Karma +0/-0
Re: On Salah and Sujood - an indepth study
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2010, 09:56:48 AM »
Salaam David,


I appreciate your comments.

Firstly,

Quote
Some of the greatest scholars, did not know that qibla is not physical, and that pilgrimage to mecca is not a quranic concept (it has nothing to do with the teachings of the Quran).

That is a pretty big assumption you're making there. But we'll discuss that another time.


Quote
I like occam's razor, and I also believe in simplicity. And i know that the simplest explanation often is the correct one. But often is not the same as always. And when it comes to salat, it is a wide and comprehensive concept, so I believe, it should be studied integratively.

Agreed. Which is why I tried to find in historical resources any references to the "change" in salah from a mental to a physical one. I don't know if you read this so I'll quote myself again:

Quote
I am not arguing that this is how salah should be done according to the Quran - what I am arguing is that this is how Muhammad performed salah. I believe that, as someone who knew the Quran better than any other, he combined all verses calling for timed worship - tasbih, salah, reading, dhikr, etc. - and created a form of prayer that includes all of these aspects. The traditional salah includes all of this, in all the timings mentioned.
It's my belief that if you read the Quran as thoroughly as Muhammad and spotted every timed decree, and then went home and tried to do all the necessary dhikr, all the necessary tasbih, you would largely end up with Muhammad's version of prayer.



As to this:

Quote
I agree that if salat is observed properly, it will keep people away from immorality and crimes. However, prayer alone, can never keep people away from immorality and crimes. Prayer alone can not make a person recognize the difference between right and wrong. Many mullahs and sheiks observe prayer properly, does this make them higly moral? You should ask yourself this question. To know the difference between right and wrong, a person needs to know the laws of god. A person needs to know the natural laws of mankind. A person needs to have knowledge about what is moral and immoral. And all the laws of God does not exist in the ritual prayer. So ritual prayer is not enough if someone wants to be a moral human being. If ritual prayer alone would keep people away from morality and crimes, you could teach people to forget the quran, forget all knowledge, and only pray. Would only praying, keep people away from immorality and crimes? Off course not. So by using logic, we can see that ritual prayer alone can not keep away from immorality and crimes.

Prayer alone won't teach you right from wrong. Whether done correctly or incorrectly. But that doesn't mean that it isn't an integral part of the Quran and the deen, and diluting the meaning of the word salah to fit some kind of all-encompassing interpretation won't help either.

If someone wants to be a moral human being, they need much more than the Quran. I am not denying that. But that isn't the point. Will making regular tasbih throughout the day or making regular dhikr throughout the day make a person supremely moral? Of course not! Would it make you more moral? Yes.


Quote
Your argument holds little weight. For hundreds of years all kinds of people, including intellectuals, believed that the earth was flat. But that does not make it a fact, that does not make it true. The majority of scholars also believe that malaika were angels, or if you will physical beings. But that does not make it a fact. From my understanding of the quran malaika is controllers/hidden laws of nature.

The majority of scientists, and the most famous scientists in the world also believe in the theory of evolution, and has not noticed problems with the theory, or acknowledged its logical cracks. But even dough the majority of scientists believe the theory of evolution is true, it does not make it true. The idea that apes were ancestors of human beings, is based on falsehood. And this is proven by archeology. So your arguments is weak.

I'm sorry but this argument holds even less weight. Science and evolution are one thing, and Arabic another. We are constantly growing in our knowledge of science and biology - but the people of Muhammad's time were at the pinnacle of knowledge in Arabic linguistics. We have not grown in our knowledge since then, we are simply re-hashing and reinterpreting concepts and words that have been interpreted before.


Quote
Yes, humans must choose to perform it by using the quran alone, not by using sunna and hadith and not by praying the sunni, shia or zoroastrian way.

Who said that it is a sunni, shia, or zoroastrian way? The Quran tells us that every community has received their own messengers. Couldn't these be vestiges of that??

16:36:

Indeed, We sent forth among every nation a Messenger


2:87

And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him.



The problem with salah is that it is vast, complex concept, and people have been confused by certain metonymical, metaphorical verses. But there is overwhelming evidence that salah is physical. If salah were simply sitting and thinking about God, or sitting and reading the Quran, how is that any better than the traditional salah??

How does that incorporate sujood, rukoo3, and qiyaam? Or are we now going to go through every word in the Quran and find alternate meanings? Isn't it supremely ironic that a bunch of people on free-minds who don't even speak Arabic are going to correct a long line of poets and linguists? And I am the illogical one?!

Can you explain what your conception of salah and sujood are so that we can compare them to what is stated in the Quran and to the traditional salah?
فَاسْتَبِقُوا الْخَيْرَاتِ ۚ
So strive as in a race in all virtues!
5:48

David_K

  • Guest
Re: On Salah and Sujood - an indepth study
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2010, 10:40:33 AM »
Salaam ths

Thanks for your comments :)

Quote
Who said that it is a sunni, shia, or zoroastrian way? The Quran tells us that every community has received their own messengers. Couldn't these be vestiges of that??

The generations that came after the messengers, lost their Salat:  

Quran 19:59   
Then, generations came after them who lost the contact prayer, and followed desires. They will find their consequences.

As we can see from the verse above, the generations who came after the messengers, lost their salat. Therefore the salat of shia and sunni can not have been preserved.

Quote
If salah were simply sitting and thinking about God, or sitting and reading the Quran, how is that any better than the traditional salah??

There is a difference between ritual prayer and salat because salat is none of the above. Salat is a comprehensive concept. Salat is not just reading the quran, or thinking about god. Salat is reading the Quran, and practicing the quran; following its principles and values. Salat demands taking full responsibility for ones actions. Its a divine system. And its comprehensive/wide as I have already mentioned.

Quote
How does that incorporate sujood, rukoo3, and qiyaam? Or are we now going to go through every word in the Quran and find alternate meanings? Isn't it supremely ironic that a bunch of people on free-minds who don't even speak Arabic are going to correct a long line of poets and linguists? And I am the illogical one?!

First of, some people on free-minds speak Arabic. Second, some people want to learn more arabic. Third, language is not a barrier for understanding the Quran. The Quran is a spiritual scripture, and its words trancends above language. Fourth, we have to be patient if we want to understand the Salat. It took me a lot of time to connect the dots. And I am still learning. I don't claim to have all the answers.

Quote
Can you explain what your conception of salah and sujood are so that we can compare them to what is stated in the Quran and to the traditional salah?

I have already explained it in the thread: "My view on Salat".

I am curious, how do you perform Salat? Can you tell us how you perform Salat step by step, with back up from Quranic verses?  




Wakas

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 11361
  • Karma +14/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: On Salah and Sujood - an indepth study
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2010, 11:10:51 AM »
peace ths,

It is unfortunate that you have resorted to ad hominem attacks whilst trying to explain something to me. But what is perhaps even more unfortunate is that once again, your inability to read has resulted in explaining not what I highlighted. Let me re-quote what I said:

Re: 25:73
Quote from: ths
However, The feminine pronoun "ha" here can refer to the act of reminding, and not on the ayaat.

Quote from: Wakas
Please state your source for the above statement. Thanks.


You cite no evidence for your above claim, and when asked for it, you again, cite none. Why not simply say something like: according to my understanding of Arabic grammar what I said is theoretically possible, but I have not come across a source saying what I have with regard to this point.

I would have accepted that, end of story.



All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

SarahY

  • Global Moderator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 2361
  • Karma +2/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: On Salah and Sujood - an indepth study
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2010, 03:06:41 PM »
Why mutawatir isn't the greatest method, is simply forgery.

If you read on the history of hadith, hadiths were passed down not just be generations of family but by story tellers, sufism has a big significance in this. People also openly admitted to the forgery of spreading hadiths. I know you're talking about "actions" but hear me out.

What makes a hadith/action mutawattir? that so many people know it that it's "impossible" for it to be an error. that's not a true argument considering all the influences that happen in time.

Let me give you a scenario example. Imam malik collected ahadith of people in medinah. he believed the practices of people in medinah is most pure most true. So from then on in he maintained practices from them, people as a whole also revered him and followed his actions. so much so that the caliph at the time asked him to put his work at the kaabah for all people to see and follow. he refused and said along the lines of "one man can be wrong, and it wouldn't be wise to subjugate a whole community by one mans opinion". wise words, imagine today if we refuse his work with that claim? people will say we are defaming scholarly work!

I'll argue about imam malik some more, his work is one of the earliest work on hadith, yet his work has forged and broken chains. forged and broken chains = not sahih. his work is of the early work if his work has crookedness what of the future generations?

you might argue again there are numerous hadiths so many hadiths that support these actions. People in the past admitted to forgery of hadith to bring people closer to God! imagine of things not admitted? so more hadiths spread more of them became popular, practices got adopted. but it's in hadith must be true!!! it's mentioned so many times it's gotta be a mutawatir.

if you're going to take mutawatir action to be your justification, it would be almost impossible to separate what was or wasn't influenced by hadith and also what really happened.

Quran is also a document, a book not just a mutawatir tradition.

I know it might be said with the 1000's of hadiths that support a physical action etc how can it be totally wrong. how can the method be totally turned upside down??

God knows the truth but i'll mention also political powers had influence on muslim practices

peace
We all have blind spots.
Follow your heart but take your brain with you.
ambiguity is there for a reason, why do you think?
We're all different, so how can we all be equal?

Fusion

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 203
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: On Salah and Sujood - an indepth study
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2021, 02:51:53 AM »
Dear All,

The topic came out in my search for something else but I read throug and I found the discussion very useful, yet I see that no further discussions were made. As I understand the debate was physical aspect of Prayer vs the true meaning of it. Furthermore the concept that the prayer muslims perform today have been almost unchanged more or less in its physical nature and it is more likely how Prophet had prayed and then the concept of the physical prayer being a ritual hence could not what Quran attributed to Salat.
I am also puzzled as to the following as I could see both parties have valid opinions (ths vs others).

QURAN mentioning physical ritual.
I believe there are many verses in quran which indicate that many nations have been practising ritual prayers i.e. sujud, qayam, ruku etc. because  Quran does talk about group of people performing this act as "congregational prayer", such as ruko ma alrakaeen etc.. So I believe there has to be a phsycal prayer existence, are we denying this fact? if not then that means how one performs the salat ritual as "congregational prayer" if there is no clear definition of it? One cant just go to mosque and start performing these acts as he wishes, has to be synch?
The verse 62:9-10 is surely asking people to leave a phsycal act (trading) and go to perform friday salat? should we take this as a non physical some sort of meditation order from God?
The above is not my conclusion, am only refering it here for others to correct me or guide me please.

The other aspects of the ritual prayer which is practised today and claimed to be "mutawatir" are several words that we speak during the prayer out of quran. For example the prayer to the prophet. Almost every muslim whe he/she prays towards the end, is sending prayers to the prophet and his aal similar to god did so for Ibrahim and his aal
My only question, may God forgive me, is that has the prophet asked muslims to do that? if yes doe it not seem self praise act by the prophet? we are praying to God almighty and all praises to be for Him alone.
Furthermore did it really work? I mean the Aal of Ibrahim was known to have been very blessed and successful? but did prophet Aal reached the same status? history tells us that prophet aal has very unfortunate events (event of qarbala). So point is incurrent time, prophet is not alive, is it still significant to utter the prayer to prophet and his aal in tashahud?? whats the point here?

I have more questions on this but appreciate if I get a reply on the above


Regards
Best Regards,

Wakas

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 11361
  • Karma +14/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: On Salah and Sujood - an indepth study
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2021, 03:40:30 AM »
peace fusion, all,

Thanks for reviving this thread. Upon re-reading it perhaps I was a little harsh in my criticism of ths' work. I think it is a worthy read but of course that does not mean I agree with everything in it.

You may find these posts useful:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607589.msg371591#msg371591
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610353.msg419239#msg419239
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Fusion

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 203
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: On Salah and Sujood - an indepth study
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2021, 06:37:39 AM »
Thank you Waqas for the links, and I will certainly go reading them in detail.

Cheers
Best Regards,