Author Topic: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back  (Read 71026 times)

Wakas

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #230 on: February 07, 2014, 04:08:00 PM »
peace huruf,

Re: rijal as husband
What about 2:228?

We are still waiting on a reply from you about this.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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savage_carrot

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #231 on: February 08, 2014, 04:10:05 AM »
So what do you think it means. Forget examples, forget hypothesis. Simply what does the aya say according to you? Because obviously, whether we can come up with examples or brilliant ideas or whatever, if we reject something it is because we do read something else. How do you think reads the aya, because finally I have no idea of what you are upholding.

As to what they may think or say in other forums, why should I be concerned with that? I am not begging agreement from anybody. I do not feel disappointed or angry or anything if nobody agrees with me. I can live with that. But disagreement is no reason for me to say something I am convinced it is false, no matter how popular.

Salaam


Like I said in my previous posts in different places sis, I see couples fitting in the aya and others connected, I can't exclude them yet...because the evidence to reject it is not solid/coherent enough. I am very interested in knowing if there is another way of reading it with enough solidity to reject other interpretations. I have no horse in this race, I just want to know how much juice any interpretation has, is all. If an understanding is solid, accurate and truthful, it stands on its own and needs no one to hold it up in a manner of speaking, especially not on this forum where the vast majority of understandings are alternative. If people have issues with an alternative understanding in an alternative forum, then it's probably the fault of the understanding not having enough to it rather than an issue of perception/bias etc.

peace
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hawk99

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #232 on: February 08, 2014, 04:46:33 AM »
Peace Wakas,

Separate, not divorce  within the household or going to a relatives or friends house for time to think,
cool off or give space is definitive and understandable how to be done by most.  Like "leave"is understood by most
people.  But "beat" is much more vague with no parameters, also their are problems carrying out such a directive
like beat because severe injury may occur to one or both of the parties. How is the beating to be carried out?

God bless

   :peace:
The secret to monotheism can be found in the garden

Wakas

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #233 on: February 08, 2014, 07:37:33 AM »
peace hawk99,

Separate, not divorce  within the household or going to a relatives or friends house for time to think,
cool off or give space is definitive and understandable how to be done by most.  Like "leave"is understood by most
people.

I agree that it can't mean "divorce", however I disagree that it is "definitive and understandable" as I mention here. Feel free to show several people the verse with "leave them" or "separate from them" in the verse and see if they all give the same answer in terms of what it means. This might give one a good indication if it is "definitive and understandable". Let us know what you find.

Quote
But "beat" is much more vague with no parameters, also their are problems carrying out such a directive
like beat because severe injury may occur to one or both of the parties. How is the beating to be carried out?

I agree, but I'm not sure why you're asking me. This specific issue is discussed at length on Quran434.com
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

aqua

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #234 on: February 08, 2014, 04:41:20 PM »
As I have often said, this is all about weighing up the options. If you or anyone else can produce a evidenced/logical alternative option, feel free. Thus far, I haven't seen anyone attempt to produce a detailed/credible work. Readers can then weigh up all options and decide for themselves.

I am working on a website similar to Quran434.com, on which I intend to summarise the views I have expressed in this thread.  Verse 4:34 was the first verse I had difficulty understanding in my teenage years, and ultimately it was an article online which enlightened me on the more likely meaning.  I think it's important for people to have access to such interpretations and to be aware of the level of misinterpretation the Qur'an has suffered.  I don't have a date of completion, but I will post a link when it is complete (God-willing).

hawk99

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #235 on: February 08, 2014, 05:41:19 PM »
peace hawk99,

I agree that it can't mean "divorce", however I disagree that it is "definitive and understandable" as I mention here. Feel free to show several people the verse with "leave them" or "separate from them" in the verse and see if they all give the same answer in terms of what it means. This might give one a good indication if it is "definitive and understandable". Let us know what you find.

Peace Wakas,

Stating "going to a relatives or friends house for time to think, cool off or give space even in the same house is
definitive and understandable by most". meaning that act of creating space is understood by most, not an attempt
to translate the verse
, just the simple act of creating room between the two parties which is what most folks do.

I agree, but I'm not sure why you're asking me. This specific issue is discussed at length on Quran434.com

Just for once I would like someone who thinks that the beat/separate discussion is complicated to consider the
actual beating part of the debate i.e., when to beat, how to beat, with what to beat, should children be present,
how long to beat, what bruises are acceptable etc., then many will see how barbaric the beat translation is and
conclude that it is not much of a debate at all!

God bless

   :peace:
The secret to monotheism can be found in the garden

Wakas

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #236 on: February 09, 2014, 05:42:24 AM »
Update:
I recently noticed that "madaji3" is in the "maf3il" form, meaning it can theoretically mean "times of sleep" as well as "places of sleep" i.e. "beds/bedrooms".

I have updated the website accordingly:

"...and abandon them in the bed..." (Arabic: hjuroo, root: ha-Jiim-Ra), means forsake, leave off, desert, abandon [see 19:46, 73:10, 74:5].
It is important to note this verb applies to the husband, NOT the wife, thus translations such as "banish them to beds apart "(M. Pickthal), "send them to beds apart" (Dawood), are incorrect. This is further proven by the use of "fee" meaning "in". Lastly, "al madajiAA" (root: Dad-Jiim-Ayn) is plural, and literally means "the times/places of rest/sleep/reclining", thus could mean 'the times of sleep' or 'the bed' or even 'the bedroom'. With regard to "al madajiAA" there is no half measures, it clearly means fully abandon/desert them in this. It seems to also imply no sexual relations. Also, this step reinforces the implication that it is unlikely to be a simultaneous series of steps, as "abandon them in the bed or times of sleep" would only be done at sleeping time, implying a time gap. This step should not be viewed as totally against the wife, as it would also result in the husband re-evaluating their relationship, and make him weigh up his fear against his desire to be with her, thus helping compromise/reconciliation.
As a side note, if a spouse is possibly having an affair, then not sharing beds (i.e. no sex) could also potentially reduce spread of sexually transmitted diseases, giving another benefit of this advice/step.

And:
Other examples of word form "maf3il" in AQ include: "majalis", "mantiq", "mawazin", "mawatin", "mawadi3", "madaji3". There may be others. If the reader knows of any, please let me know. Their usage seems to indicate this form can indicate time/place/concept. Please read all occurrences.

The only forms that I came across of "maf3al" in AQ were "marqad", "mankab", "mash3ar", "mashrab" and "majma'a" and all seem to denote place. There may be others. If the reader knows of any, please let me know. Please read all occurrences.

To conclude, the word form "ma3fil" (same as "masjid") can indicate a noun of time/place (and perhaps concept). This is well established and accepted. Thus, to state "masjid" may mean a noun of time should not be seen as unusual.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

hawk99

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #237 on: March 15, 2014, 12:11:49 PM »
Peace,

As far as "cite" is concerned, could someone give a definition of "cite", also use it in their translation
of  4/34.

God bless,

   :peace:
The secret to monotheism can be found in the garden

Wakas

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #238 on: March 15, 2014, 12:48:04 PM »
peace hawk99,

It's all explained on the website www.Quran434.com with translation. Have you read it?

Quote
The men are supporters/maintainers of the women with what God bestowed on some of them over others and with what they spent of their money, so the righteous women are dutiful; guardians to the unseen with what God guarded. And as for those women you fear their disloyalty, then: (first) you shall advise them, and (second) abandon them in the bed, and (lastly) cite them. If they obeyed you, then seek not against them a way; Truly, God is High, Great. [4:34]
And if you (authority) feared a rift between them two, then appoint a judge from his family and a judge from hers. If they both want to reconcile, then God will bring agreement between them. God is Knowledgeable, Expert. [4:35]


cite them:
Quote
An interesting example also appears in 58:1-4 in which a woman argues with the prophet complaining about her husband, and how the husband has estranged/alienated her by claiming her to be as his mother's back, which was a practice of the time, making the wife unlawful for himself but also not technically divorcing her allowing her to remarry, i.e. leaving her stuck/suspended.
This is an interesting example because if we suppose this could be classed as a case of iAAradan/alienation or shiqaqa/breach/rift, then the next step the wife took was to cite her husband's behaviour/actions to the authority, which would have been the prophet at the time. The correlation is specifically with 4:129 which advises the husband not to leave her stuck/suspended and this is the EXACT situation described in 58:1-4, thus showing that in a situation of no resolution, the next step would be to cite the partner/situation to the authority. If we correlate this example to what the next step would be in 4:34, if the steps are followed and no resolution is forthcoming, the next step would be to cite the partner to the authority. This would explain how the court/authority knew of the situation between the couple in 4:35. Since 'idriboo them' is the only step in between "abandon them in bed" and the authority becoming aware of the situation, is there a Classical Arabic meaning of DRB that fits in the sequence? The answer is a resounding yes, as one of its primary and most common meanings is: to cite/propound, declare/mention, put/show forth, point out or indicate. As we can see, it is a perfect fit.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

hawk99

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #239 on: March 15, 2014, 03:18:23 PM »
peace hawk99,

It's all explained on the website www.Quran434.com with translation. Have you read it?


cite them:

Peace Wakas,

Thank you, I surmise in the context of 4/34 "cite" equals "report" (to authorities) which could include
family members also clerics and counselors  yes/no?

God bless

   :peace:
The secret to monotheism can be found in the garden