Author Topic: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back  (Read 71057 times)

aqua

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #180 on: February 02, 2014, 10:42:05 AM »
I don't see in any dictionaries both Lane and baheeth.com if DRB without any prepositions can be mean separate, go away.

Please see this post: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599954.msg346614#msg346614

Earthdom

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #181 on: February 02, 2014, 10:48:35 AM »
Please see this post: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599954.msg346614#msg346614

Thanks.
But in the following explanation you posted, it said:

For instance daraba acquires the meaning of "to separate" in combination with baina, and the meaning of "to turn away from," "to leave," "to avoid," and "to shun" in combination with 'an. In the passage in question, daraba is not combined with either of these prepositions.

DRB in 4:34 is not in the question sentence, but it's position is on the command verb




aqua

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #182 on: February 02, 2014, 10:52:44 AM »
Thanks.
But in the following explanation you posted, it said:

For instance daraba acquires the meaning of "to separate" in combination with baina, and the meaning of "to turn away from," "to leave," "to avoid," and "to shun" in combination with 'an. In the passage in question, daraba is not combined with either of these prepositions.

Those are examples of usage of the prepositions.  The very next sentence I posted is this:

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Yet Lane points out that the command form of the verb, udribu, with or without 'an, can mean "ignore," "pay no attention to," or "turn away from," as well as "hit," "beat," or "strike." Hence, udribu-hunna, could mean, "beat them" or "strike them," or alternatively, "turn them away," "ignore them," or "shun them." 

Earthdom

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #183 on: February 02, 2014, 11:10:18 AM »
Sorry to said this, but who is the author of this quote??

"Nevertheless, narrowing its meaning in a given instance is not as difficult as it may first seem, because in Arabic verbs acquire various connotations only in combination with specific prepositions. For instance daraba acquires the meaning of "to separate" in combination with baina, and the meaning of "to turn away from," "to leave," "to avoid," and "to shun" in combination with 'an. In the passage in question, daraba is not combined with either of these prepositions. Yet Lane points out that the command form of the verb, udribu, with or without 'an, can mean "ignore," "pay no attention to," or "turn away from," as well as "hit," "beat," or "strike." Hence, udribu-hunna, could mean, "beat them" or "strike them," or alternatively, "turn them away," "ignore them," or "shun them."

aqua

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #184 on: February 02, 2014, 11:13:09 AM »
Sorry to said this, but who is the author of this quote??

Source: LANG. J, Losing My Religion: A Call for Help, Amana Publications, First Edition, Page 429 (Author Reference [93] Edward Lane, Arabic-English Lexicon, Fredrick Unger Publishing (1956), page 1779, first column, two-thirds down the page).

Earthdom

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #185 on: February 02, 2014, 11:19:22 AM »
I believe you quoted from Joseph Islam bro, the owner of Quranmessage.com.
That's why I ask you who the really author is, because I don't believe if the author of that quote are them

But my suggestion is please re-check again Lane Lexicon or dictionaries from baheeth.com
If necessary please ask the native speaker, for what usage of DRB mostly.


aqua

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #186 on: February 02, 2014, 11:24:41 AM »
I believe you quoted from Joseph Islam bro, the owner of Quranmessage.com.
That's why I ask you who the really author is, because I don't believe if the author of that quote are them

No, Joseph Islam presents that quote in his article here: http://quransmessage.com/articles/does%20the%20quran%20sanction%20wife%20beating%20FM3.htm

He references the quote in the footnotes of that article (footnote 6).

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If necessary please ask the native speaker, for what usage of DRB mostly.

No I won't interpret the Qur'an using modern layman Arabic; that's not the language of the Qur'an.

Earthdom

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #187 on: February 02, 2014, 11:39:50 AM »
No I won't interpret the Qur'an using modern layman Arabic; that's not the language of the Qur'an.

Yes you're true, and I still suggest to check baheeth.com.In the search tab, type ضرب and enter.

اضْرِ‌بُوهُنَّ

Blue = command form of daraba (can be mean separate, beat)
Red =  feminine version of hum/them.

This sentence simply mean separate/beat them not separate them away, go away etc.

As english speaker, you may understand if command "separate them" means you separate the objects/them, not you separate from them/objects.
I mean if you translate idribuhunna in 4:34 as "separate them", means you separate the nisaa' not you separate from the nisaa'.

So if we translate idribu-hunna in 4:34 as "separate them" it will became broken phrase.

Hope yu understand what I mean.


aqua

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #188 on: February 02, 2014, 11:47:27 AM »
Yes you're true, and I still suggest to check baheeth.com.In the search tab, type ضرب and enter.

اضْرِ‌بُوهُنَّ

Blue = command form of daraba (can be mean separate, beat)
Red =  feminine version of hum/them.

This sentence simply mean separate/beat them not separate them away, go away etc.

As english speaker, you may understand if command "separate them" means you separate the objects/them, not you separate from them/objects.
I mean if you translate idribuhunna in 4:34 as "separate them", means you separate the nisaa' not you separate from the nisaa'.

So if we translate idribu-hunna in 4:34 as "separate them" it will became broken phrase.

Hope yu understand what I mean.

It depends which English words you use.  For example, in the following English translations, the words 'away' / 'from' are not required:

Avoid them

Ignore them

Disregard them

Leave them

Shun them

But remember an Arabic word can be broad enough to be translated in more than one way in English.

huruf

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #189 on: February 02, 2014, 11:48:14 AM »
Nah!! brother uq raised important point for what we must take notice.
It's about preposition في.DRB can be mean separate, go away with that preposition

Example: ضر‌بوا في الأر‌ض (appear in 2:273 and 3:156)

I don't see in any dictionaries both Lane and baheeth.com if DRB without any prepositions can be mean separate, go away.
But mostly mean strike, beat and attemp.

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Example:
-From lisan ul Arab : - تَضَرُّبُ الولد في البَطْنِ
                                - ما ضَرَبْتَه بالسيفِ


As you can see in both those sentences there is a mention of that is used to d-r-b or a mention of what is madrub.

That is you need two complements for daraba to be used with that meaning.

On the other hand, what was before, the hen or the egg?



The inclusion of the meaning of daraba in 4.34 in the qur'an lacks or logic and fails to make any sense and as the study on d-r-b as used in the Qur'an made by wakas the meaning of d-r-b has hitting is to be excluded. The fact that it is used todaby with that meaning may be precisely the result of it being pushed down the throats of users for ages so that the marital authority could be asserted. You should prove that it has that meaning at the time of the Qur'an without the presence of two complements. On the other hand the meaning by itself and only with a single complement as to impress, make a dent, or cause an effect, or surprise is part of the basic meaning of daraba. I already mentioned the verb adarvar, in spanish, derived from the arabic d-r-b which has no physical connotation at all, but in fact means that, impress, surprise. If at that time, con the word adarvar came into spanish in the middle ages, the meaning in arabic had been "hit" that should have been the meaning in Spanish, but on the other hand, the meaning is precisely that which is the basic meaning of the root, which by the way is not hit. Hit may be the most common usage today, but it is not semantically the basic meaning. Why not translate by "play music to them"?

I really cannot understand this need -contrary to quranic injunction which tells us to put the best construction on the ayas of the Qur'an- to do exactly the opposite, that is, to put the worst contruction in the ayas of the Qur'an. What are we playing at? Whom are we kidding? And in the present case, as abundantly proved, it is not only the worst construction morally, it is also the worst construction logically and gramatically and semantically. It is ridiculous. The "commendation" of a lot of "traditional"  self-seeking
"explanations" of the Qur'an is about the only ground that that preposterous idea is still handed around and, it seems, respected. There must be a great amount of masochism for that.

Salaam