Author Topic: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back  (Read 73635 times)

huruf

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #160 on: January 31, 2014, 03:45:40 PM »
The place where you usually sleep is private to some extent or then what is private if not that?

Salaam

aqua

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #161 on: January 31, 2014, 04:01:18 PM »
The place where you usually sleep is private to some extent or then what is private if not that?

A lot of other things can be seen as private too, like a bathroom, or a person's chair in the bedroom, or even a person's belongings like if they own a car it can be private for them.   I don't see how bed means 'private place' in the verse.

TruthBehindIt

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #162 on: January 31, 2014, 04:11:46 PM »
4:34 Men are the protectors and supporters of women. They shall take full care of women with what they spend of their wealth. God has made men to excel in some areas and women to excel in some areas. Men should ensure that women are able to stand at their feet in the society.
So, righteous women are obedient to God?s Ordinances and guard the moral values even in privacy, the values that God has commanded to be guarded. If you experience ill-treatment from them, apprise them of possible consequences. Next, leave them in their resting places, but keep admonishing them with examples. If they pay heed to you, do not seek a way against them. God is Most High, Great.


[Qawwam = Protector = Maintainer = One who helps others to stand at
their feet. Nushooz = Ill-treatment = Rebellion = To stand up (2:259,
58:11) = To stand up against virtue = Mental abuse = Domestic violence
= To rebel against the permanent moral values. Wa?az = Admonishment
= To apprise of consequences (2:231, 3:66). Dharb = Example (13:17,
16:74, 36:13) = To stop or prevent (8:11, 43:5) = To embark upon a
journey = Strike the road or begin to travel (4:101) = To give examples
(4:34, 13:17, 16:74, 36:13, 43:58) = To withdraw (43:5)]

Example of Darabu from another Verse:
43:5 Should We (A'fa'nad'ribu) withdraw the reminder from you just because you are a people bent upon wasting yourselves?

So.........in 4: 34, Darabu means to separate from or divorce.......the next Verse talks about the same matter...Divorce.

4:35 (Families and communities must adopt a proactive approach regarding a husband and a wife in discord.) If you fear a breach between the two of them (husband and wife), appoint two arbiters, one from his family and one from her family. If they decide to reconcile, God will help them get together. Surely, God is Knower, Aware.

Now ask you heart...........what is more appropriate for the one you can't live with........beating or divorce.

And directly ask a woman......."There are two meanings of Darabu = beating, and, separation.......which one would you like.....to be beaten, or, to be separated....?

huruf

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #163 on: February 01, 2014, 03:28:13 AM »
A lot of other things can be seen as private too, like a bathroom, or a person's chair in the bedroom, or even a person's belongings like if they own a car it can be private for them.   I don't see how bed means 'private place' in the verse.


Well what do you understand as privacy? Bathroom of course is private, but a bedroom is also private, or not? A chair is not so private, unless we are speaking about property, but that is not what we are speaking about. You do not sleep and become unconscious sitting on a chair, or at leas that is not the usual place where one abandons her or himself for rest and sleep. And the term, as you have seen from the Qur'an itself is not an object called bed, but the place where one lies down to rest or sleep, even if it is a spread on the ground. It is where persons become vulnerable, since they are not conscious, where they feel safe to abandon themselves to sleep, or where something is in the place it should be like the case of aya 3.154, which in fact, in that particular case, is precisely the place where oneis scheduled to meet his or her death. Would you say that death is private?
 
Whatever may be said or played around about privacy or not privacy may be a long discussion. However the fact is that in 4.34 there is no hint of shunning anybody sexually, except if one goes out from the preconceived notion that it is about sex that it MUST be speaking. Bed an sex are far from being unseparable concepts. And in older times, and presently where people are not very affluent, when it is cold at night people used to sleep all together in the same space so as to keep warmth. Bed's did not have a particular connotation with sex and, in fact, nowhere does the Qur'an use such language. So that in most of the circumstancews known to date, those women who should be left in their place of sleepping may in fact be usually sleeping with other members of their family in the same space, married or not. So what? Who is going to abandon them in bed, leave them alone in bed as they say, their parents, their children, their sisters or brothers? the husbands? From where do we take that their place of sleep is only shared by husbands? That is modern age affluence and euphemism for sex, but from where do we take that the Qur'an is departing there from its usual usage and means something that has never meant? In fact what it is telling us is that it is not sex it is talking aboute, but about the private, personal sphere of the persons concerned. A

And the addressee is still the community of believers who is addressed. So what can be deduced from it is that when the community tries to get clarity as to the intentions of those women from whom some uncompliance is feared that they should shun intruding into their private sphere, that they must get feedback from them by any other means and that if they quieten their concerns then they should not seek to pester them further.

In fact, far from giving any special rights to (once more) fiscalise women and treat them as potential culprits, what it does is set clear limits to what can be done to women as concerning their social behaviour.

At no time in the Qur'an is bed or sleeping place mentioned in connection with sex. Where it means sex it renders clearly that meaning without resorting to the bed euphemism (may be bed is not the only place where people can have sex, could it be?). There is no support from the Qur'an, one at all, to give it any sexual meaning.

I understand that it is hard to discard ideas that have always been taken for granted and never contradicted, but I, for one, when I do not take for granted what has been taken for granted in this, I cannot see at all that the Qur'an itself takes those self-same things for granted. The sex is in us, it is not in the Qur'an. 

Salaam


Wakas

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #164 on: February 01, 2014, 04:36:32 AM »
peace all,

huruf,
You said: " no question of the speech revolving on exclusively a relationship of marriage. It was all about rijaal and nisaa', not husbands and wives. No mention of that at all."
Then said: "In the next aya, the fear is that a couple might break up."
What is this couple?

I have actually investigated alternative meanings for rijal/nisa in this verse but I could not make it work. As I have often said, this is all about weighing up the options. If you or anyone else can produce a evidenced/logical alternative option, feel free. Thus far, I haven't seen anyone attempt to produce a detailed/credible work. Readers can then weigh up all options and decide for themselves.


TruthBehindIt,
The first part of your post is from QXP but in the most recent update DRB in 4:34 has changed to reflect the findings of 4:34, see ourbeacon.com
Also when you say "Darabu means to separate from or divorce.......the next Verse talks about the same matter...Divorce." The Quran always uses "talaq" for "divorce" so 4:34 is the exception in your view, and it would upset the divorce procedure in terms of contract-breaking party pays compensation (although it is possible you know of an alternative procedure as per Quran). And as for "separate from them" this has been discussed previously.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Wakas

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #165 on: February 01, 2014, 05:16:13 AM »
I forgot to say the "scholar" Muhammad Shahrur attempted an alternative translation but it was riddled with problems, see here:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600886.msg253541#msg253541
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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huruf

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #166 on: February 01, 2014, 05:31:46 AM »
Quote
peace all,

huruf,
You said: " no question of the speech revolving on exclusively a relationship of marriage. It was all about rijaal and nisaa', not husbands and wives. No mention of that at all."
Then said: "In the next aya, the fear is that a couple might break up."
What is this couple?

I have actually investigated alternative meanings for rijal/nisa in this verse but I could not make it work. As I have often said, this is all about weighing up the options. If you or anyone else can produce a evidenced/logical alternative option, feel free. Thus far, I haven't seen anyone attempt to produce a detailed/credible work. Readers can then weigh up all options and decide for themselves.


What alternativo meanings for rijaal or nisaa'? I have taken the usual meaning, rijaal in this ayam since it is opposed to nisaa' I have taken it to mean MEN, and nisaa' I have taken it to mean WOMEN. So I do not really get what you mean that I should come up with an alternative meaning.

If what you mean is that in the whole aya means husbands and wives, I completely disagree with you. Whe the Qur'an means husbands, says so, and when the qur'an means wives, makes it clear. Here there are rijaal versus nisaa', men versus women. And in fact historically it has always been understood that the men in a family assume the burden of the women of the family, irrespective whether they are sisters

In the next aya switches to a couple. In the next aya. Not in 4.34. There is no switch and the addressee is still the same in both ayas, the community. The most we can say here is that it is not excluded that a husband and a wife may be involved, but the text does not make any such restriction and it does continue to speak about rijaal and nisaa'

On the other hand, the "bainahuma" (between the two of them) we do take it to mean a couple and I think mostly it will be that, but there is no interdiction that it might also be a man and a woman who have some living social or financial relationship, for instance a tutor and a pupil, a political uncle and a niece, a political aunt and a nephew... Think for instance of Maryam and Zakariya, if there ever arose a conflict between them... Even a mother and a son. What is set forth in the 4.34 is the different burdens on each of the sexes. That is true regardless of the kind of relationship there may exist between two particular persons of different sex. The burdens of the women are the heavier, unmeasurably heavier, burdens of reproduction, and the burdens of the men are precisely to take their share in the care of women, so that the reproduction work and labour they put in does not stay unremunerated, that is stolen. Let us not forget that the Qur'an speaks of "ujur" at the familiar level, but since the expression in 4.34 is general, blanket: rijaal - nisaa', all of them, the only thing that can be understood from that is that the sharing of the burden is between the generality of men and the generality of women.

Salaam


 

aqua

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #167 on: February 01, 2014, 06:29:02 AM »
At no time in the Qur'an is bed or sleeping place mentioned in connection with sex. Where it means sex it renders clearly that meaning without resorting to the bed euphemism (may be bed is not the only place where people can have sex, could it be?). There is no support from the

My view is not that bed refers exclusively to sexual contact in 4:34. But I think bed means bed, whether or not this  includes a meaning of avoiding intimacy. For example, 'avoid in bed' could mean sleep in separate beds if the situation requires.

huruf

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #168 on: February 01, 2014, 06:56:03 AM »

My view is not that bed refers exclusively to sexual contact in 4:34. But I think bed means bed, whether or not this  includes a meaning of avoiding intimacy. For example, 'avoid in bed' could mean sleep in separate beds if the situation requires.

If you remember or read back the quotes from the Qur'an and the Lane dictionnary, and as I made explicitly clear, I think, it is not an object called "bed" but the place where one lies to sleep. It is function not an object. That is the whole point that we are talking about sleep or place of certainty, like the aya where it refers to the place where somebody was to die, so there is no question about marital considerations. And I suppose to, that the community of believers, which is the addressee of the sentence does not usually share a bed or place of sleeping with any particular women from whom whatever is feared.

My reading of the commendation to the community would be:


...question them, leave them think about it at leaisure and have clarity from them.

Which in the context makes perfect sense. The men in the sentence, or if you want them to be that, the husbands, don't do anything, they are the third person plural. It is the second person mixed plural, (ayuha alladhina amanu), who do something. Obviously they would not need to part beds with anybody, but they may leave whoever it is to think things over quietely at their abode.

Salaam

Wakas

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #169 on: February 01, 2014, 07:53:35 AM »
peace huruf,

Thanks for clarifying that in your view 4:35 switches to a couple unmentioned previously. I dont consider your view credible, however, as I said, if you wish to come up with an alternative, feel free to research such and produce an article/etc so others can weigh it up and decide etc.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org