Author Topic: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back  (Read 64635 times)

aqua

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #130 on: January 24, 2014, 08:30:18 PM »
I have degree in Arabic have studied the subject extensively. . . so don't ask me - if I am arguing for the sake of arguing. Try not to get "tetchy" - and then blame even that one me.

Note: I am not being rude or making personal remarks about you.

- -

Now back to the issue:

The illustration you provide . . .  that is using the Arabic Verb Form I [1] in the imperative form. Look this up at the same website [word by word] . Whereas, the dictionary is pointing to the standard verb in the fourth form [IV].

- -

As I originally pointed out - you do not have to take my word for it - please do verify it with someone who know Arabic.

I recommend:

http://forum.wordreference.com/forumdisplay.php?f=41

It is impartial language forum and there are several people very good at Arabic.     

- -

I have also checked the better and simply formatted [albeit concise] Hans Wehr - it too equates Verb Form I with 'An - to the verb form IV.

All the sources I have seen including the links you provided show that Verb Form 4 requires a Hamza symbol above the Alif like this  أ ,  but the dictionary does not make use of this symbol in the definition.  Hence, the illustration is not necessarily referring to Verb Form 4.  This is not just an incidental omission because Lane's dictionary does make use of Hamza on Alif elsewhere in other definitions.

The_Chimp

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #131 on: January 24, 2014, 09:03:39 PM »
All the sources I have seen including the links you provided show that Verb Form 4 requires a Hamza symbol above the Alif like this  أ ,  but the dictionary does not make use of this symbol in the definition.  Hence, the illustration is not necessarily referring to Verb Form 4.  This is not just an incidental omission because Lane's dictionary does make use of Hamza on Alif elsewhere in other definitions.

And if you review the illustration you provided - then notice it too carries the Hamzah Walsi sign on top for the imperative command verb.

As to the Lane's dictionary - it [and other dictionary] do not talk about Imperative Verbs - that is Form IV - see the dictionary Hans Wehr - it too omits the Hamza sign and simply uses the Alif.

- - -

Imperative form of the verb is a derived form - it makes absolutely no sense for the command form not to carry the same particles - this does not happen in Arabic

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Take this link:

http://arabic.desert-sky.net/g_vforms.html

Now for the form 4 - this uses the word Kharaja - Akhraja.

Then check this on Lane's. You will notice the dictionary's use of the Hamaza Wasl is erratic - it uses it on some words and not the others - yet the discussion is still about the same word in form 4. 

- - -

Also - go back to Da Ra Ba root in the Lane's Lexicon. There look up the Form 4 for this verb - again - you will notice Lane's is erratic regarding the little Hamza sign - on some it is there on some it isn't.

 


Quote
This is not just an incidental omission because Lane's dictionary does make use of Hamza on Alif elsewhere in other definitions.

Simply not true.

Wakas

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #132 on: January 25, 2014, 03:24:35 AM »
The_Chimp,

Quote
I am still waiting for the Prayer debate! What happened to that?


I was waiting for people to join in, as I clearly said. Updated: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606088.msg346685#msg346685

Quote
...by pointing to a document showing Muslims did not pray before the order of 5 prayers came along!

The above is a lie against me. See forum rule 3, and please correct it:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8177.0
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

The_Chimp

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #133 on: January 25, 2014, 07:15:46 PM »
The_Chimp,
 

I was waiting for people to join in, as I clearly said. Updated: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606088.msg346685#msg346685

The above is a lie against me. See forum rule 3, and please correct it:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8177.0

It is not a lie - but a mistake in that I meant to say - "did not pray 5" - Hence:

    ...by pointing to a document showing Muslims did not pray 5 before the order of 5 prayers came along!



As to pointing out rule 3!

Jeez! I get a lot of abuse . . . far stronger . . . I hope you are "as" diligent when I put a complaint in.

aqua

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #134 on: January 26, 2014, 04:31:32 PM »
And if you review the illustration you provided - then notice it too carries the Hamzah Walsi sign on top for the imperative command verb.

As to the Lane's dictionary - it [and other dictionary] do not talk about Imperative Verbs - that is Form IV - see the dictionary Hans Wehr - it too omits the Hamza sign and simply uses the Alif.

Imperative form of the verb is a derived form - it makes absolutely no sense for the command form not to carry the same particles - this does not happen in Arabic

Take this link:

http://arabic.desert-sky.net/g_vforms.html

Now for the form 4 - this uses the word Kharaja - Akhraja.

Then check this on Lane's. You will notice the dictionary's use of the Hamaza Wasl is erratic - it uses it on some words and not the others - yet the discussion is still about the same word in form 4. 

Also - go back to Da Ra Ba root in the Lane's Lexicon. There look up the Form 4 for this verb - again - you will notice Lane's is erratic regarding the little Hamza sign - on some it is there on some it isn't.



A very strong refutation to your 'Verb Grammar' argument is the following.  It shows how the meaning of 'leave / separate' in the Lexicon can apply here even if it is referring to the 4th Form Verb:

Quote
We have to remember that the first written versions of the Quran had no
vocalisation, in other words, they left out short vowels and other signs
that tell us how to read the letters that are written. Arabic verbs have
many “forms” with different meanings, like the English verbs press -
repress – depress – pressurize.

One of the things that is used to mark
these forms is a letter alif at the beginning, which marks the 4th form of
the verb. You can think of the alif as a standard suffix, like English re-
or de-

But – here’s the crunch – the aleph at the beginning is also the marker
for the imperative (and of the interrogative, but that is not relevant
here), so in a text without the short vowels written, an imperative looks
the same as the 4th form of the verb, and also the same as the imperative
of the 4th form (because the alif is not doubled, one alif does both
jobs).


The verb in this case is d-r-b. Daraba means “he beat.”  So the meaning of
the first form is “beat,” while one of the meanings of the 4th form is
“leave.”

The form in this verse of the Quran is  | D r b

This could mean, you must beat (imperative of first form). Or it
could mean “you leave” or it could mean “you must leave”

If we take it as an imperative of the 4th form, it would be
pronounced ad.ribuu-hunna and the translation would be you (masculine
plural ‘you’) shall withdraw from them.


Sequentially: he tells them first to admonish their wives, then
refuse to share their beds, then withdraw from them, then (next
verse) appoint arbiters from the families. That is a logical
progression.

Source: http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com/email-archive/beat-your-wives/


Undoubtedly you will now claim that your Arabic knowledge is better and that the above is incorrect.  But religious obstinacy can make a person persist in falsehood no matter how much they are proven wrong.

The_Chimp

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #135 on: January 26, 2014, 05:05:44 PM »
Quote
A very strong refutation to your 'Verb Grammar' argument is the following.  It shows how the meaning of 'leave / separate' in the Lexicon can apply here even if it is referring to the 4th Form Verb

Read this back to yourself . . . it is somewhat contradictory. On one hand - you admit I am right to point out that and on the other you attempt, dogmatically, to hold on to your former position. Result? The above contradictory statement.

The question regarding the verb is simple. I even gave you means to verify it by an impartial Arabic language forum.

- -

Quote
Undoubtedly you will now claim that your Arabic knowledge is better and that the above is incorrect.  But religious obstinancy can make a person persist in falsehood no matter how much they are proven wrong.

Such statements are disingenuous by type. Why don't you wait for my response? What it shows is that you fear my Arabic actually is better and if you do bring forth another reply, which, if like others, is proven to be incorrect - then - that will leave you in dilemma.

Are you saying by above that it does not matter what I reply . . . you are going to carry on believing whatever you fee like?

Quote
But religious obstinancy can make a person persist in falsehood no matter how much they are proven wrong.

Could you point out in what you have proven me wrong? How deceptive! Look at the previous exchange. What is it I am wrong about?

Please do explain.

aqua

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #136 on: January 26, 2014, 05:20:08 PM »
Could you point out in what you have proven me wrong? How deceptive! Look at the previous exchange. What is it I am wrong about?

You claimed that since the dictionaries refer to 4th Form Verb, this makes it impossible to apply that meaning to verse 4:34.  I showed you how grammatically it is possible to apply a 4th Form Verb to verse 4:34.  You made a misinformed point about the grammar in the Qur'an.

Firedragon

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #137 on: January 27, 2014, 01:32:19 AM »
peace, brothers and sisters,

After a lot of research into 4:34 of The Quran and the meaning of DaRaBa, I have finally finished a 1st draft of my study:

Please take your time to review it, as it is over 40 pages in length. There are a few minor points within it that still need verified/clarified, these are in purple font. As a side note, it was a very interesting journey completing this work, something which I did not initially intend to write, but as my discoveries mounted up, it soon became something that I simply had to write and publish.


All feedback is welcome, especially any corrections.


Once it has been reviewed, a dedicated site and promotional tools will accompany it.

EDIT: above link does not work now, website is www.Quran434.com

Good effort and good work Wakas. Probably the most comprehensive analysis of a single topic I have seen.

Wakas

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #138 on: January 27, 2014, 02:13:51 AM »
peace aqua, all,

Yes, I was aware of that Lane Lexicon reference, however I was also aware of the somewhat controversy surrounding it AND note that I said "making this the only DRB example of this kind in The Quran" i.e. I did not say there was no example of this kind in existence.
Your post about the tashkeel/vocalisation markings cleared it up. We should bear in mind the earliest extant scripts of The Quran had no vocalisation/tashkeel marks.

Thus, my current understanding is, "go away from them" in 4:34 is theoretically possible IF one assumes the tashkeel/vocalisation of the present day Arabic Quran is incorrect AND one is willing to solve/overcome the issues I mentioned earlier.

Please note, I do not actually think "go away from them" is viable. Note that DRB is used to mean "withdraw from" in 43:5, and it is the first verb form without Alif, thus if The Quran was being consistent one would have thought it would use the same first verb form with the preposition "AAn" in 4:34 if it meant "withdraw from them".

Interestingly, Laleh Bakhtiar (who translates it "go away from") considers it to be the first form verb. It is possible she has an Arabic reference for this first form meaning that but I am not aware of her referencing such a source. If others are, let me know. She also discusses an objection based on the claim that DRB in 4:34 is a transitive verb and can thus only take a direct object, however her interpretation requires it to be intransitive so it can take an indirect object. I would be interested in hearing the Quranic evidence for/against this.

And as for the other issues I highlighted, I would be surprised if someone could solve them. I would like to clarify number (6) by explaining it, e.g. if in the reversed-role of 4:128-129 the woman was to leave/withdraw from her husband then she is doing what she fears i.e. iAAradan/alienation or turning away, which makes little sense.

Also in the quote you provided it said:
"Sequentially: he tells them first to admonish their wives, then
refuse to share their beds, then withdraw from them, then (next
verse) appoint arbiters from the families. That is a logical
progression."


To clarify, in case there is confusion, it is not the husband that is appointing arbiters, it is the authority/community. How they find out about such a situation, or where the husband goes (if he can afford to go somewhere that is) is not explained in such an understanding.

And lastly, personally, I am very cautious of using the argument "the tashkeel is incorrect here, and that is how my view can work" argument. Especially so, if there is a perfectly sound option available.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

uq

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #139 on: January 27, 2014, 05:28:28 AM »
Peace all,

I have always been of the opinion that 4:34 presents itself as an inconvenience to readers of the Quran with Modern sensibilities, as well as presenting itself as an anomaly to the rest of the Quranic message that exhorts patience and self-restraint.

However, to date, I have unfortunately not found any proof from the dictionaries that اضربوهن can mean any thing other than "strike them", explicitly.

Despite this, we can appeal to its use as a metaphor (what the Arab grammarians term "tropical application"), in that it is used to mean "go away" or "separate", implicitly.

But, unfortunately for us, this position is extremely untenable as there is no precedence of this use.

There are two important points to bear in mind when considering اضربوهن in 4:34:

1. The root ض ر ب admits of a huge number of various meanings in the Classical Language. Words derived from this root seem to have been used to signify some form of motion, as "to strike" or "to travel" or "to impress a coin" or "to snatch away" etc., and a great deal of them are tropical applications. Notwithstanding this, they are almost always prepositional compounds, that is, they occur with obligate prepositions, as ضرب في or ضرب عن or ضرب له, etc. Whereas in 4:34, the verb occurs without a preposition; it takes a direct object. This is a difficulty for those of us who seek to justify its signification as being "separate from them" or "go away from them."

2. The phrase ضَرَبَ في الأرض signifies "to travel the earth", but it cannot be separated from the preposition في (which means "in"); this much is certain. However, Az-Zabīdī states in Tāj al-?Arūs   والضربُ يَقَعُ على جميع الأعمال إلّا قَليلًا meaning "and the [act of] ض ر ب applies to all acts but a few." This is probably why so many entries of the root ض ر ب are tropical applications. Can this, therefore, by extension, be applied to 4:34? That is for the reader of the Quran to reckon.

Ultimately, the reader of the Quran is left to reflect.
uq