Author Topic: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back  (Read 70963 times)

The_Chimp

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #120 on: January 24, 2014, 03:35:54 PM »
Why not, Mr. Chimp?

Peace

Why not - what?

aqua

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #121 on: January 24, 2014, 04:06:08 PM »
peace all,

I have updated the work to include:

Quote
4) requires the insertion of "from" making this the only DRB example of this kind in The Quran, even though the preposition "AAn /from" is used with DRB in 43:5 in a very similar usage as being suggested here for 4:34.


Please see the following, taken from: http://quransmessage.com/articles/does%20the%20quran%20sanction%20wife%20beating%20FM3.htm

Quote
However, it appears from certain Arabic lexicons that the phrase 'Idribohunna' does not necessarily require the preposition 'an' to make the rendition 'shun - turn away from' operative.  Therefore, the word 'Idribohunna' in the Quran can still retain the meaning to 'turn away from - shun' without necessitating the requirement of the preposition 'an'.

Please see the example in the following excerpt below.



Source: LANE. E.W, Edward Lanes Lexicon, Williams and Norgate 1863; Librairie du Liban Beirut-Lebanon 1968, Volume 5, Page 1779

This rendering also finds support with the overarching philosophy depicted by the Quran which underscores how marriage institutions should be managed in kindness, respect and without causing harm to one another.

Other authors have also sought support from trusted Arabic lexicons to make a similar case.

"Nevertheless, narrowing its meaning in a given instance is not as difficult as it may first seem, because in Arabic verbs acquire various connotations only in combination with specific prepositions. For instance daraba acquires the meaning of "to separate" in combination with baina, and the meaning of "to turn away from," "to leave," "to avoid," and "to shun" in combination with 'an. In the passage in question, daraba is not combined with either of these prepositions. Yet Lane points out that the command form of the verb, udribu, with or without 'an, can mean "ignore," "pay no attention to," or "turn away from," as well as "hit," "beat," or "strike." Hence, udribu-hunna, could mean, "beat them" or "strike them," or alternatively, "turn them away," "ignore them," or "shun them." 

Source: LANG. J, Losing My Religion: A Call for Help, Amana Publications, First Edition, Page 429 Author Reference [93] Edward Lane, Arabic-English Lexicon, Fredrick Unger Publishing (1956), page 1779, first column, two-thirds down the page.


The_Chimp

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #122 on: January 24, 2014, 04:37:14 PM »
@Aqua

Take this to anyone with expertise in Arabic - the quote is incorrect and the person has made a mistake:

Quote
However, it appears from certain Arabic lexicons that the phrase 'Idribohunna' does not necessarily require the preposition 'an' to make the rendition 'shun - turn away from' operative.  Therefore, the word 'Idribohunna' in the Quran can still retain the meaning to 'turn away from - shun' without necessitating the requirement of the preposition 'an'.

As the dictionary points out - the additional particle is necessary. It is right there in the illustration provided.

Da Ra Ba require the particle 'An.

Earthdom

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #123 on: January 24, 2014, 04:53:23 PM »

4:34 Men are supporters of wives because God gave some of them an advantage over others and because they spent of their wealth. So the females, ones in accord with morality are the females, ones who are morally obligated and the females, ones who guard the unseen of what God kept safe. And those females whose resistance you fear, then admonish them (f) and abandon them (f) in their sleeping places and go away from them (f). Then if they (f) obeyed you, then look not for any way against them (f). Truly, God had been Lofty, Great. (Laleh Bakhtiar)

I notice a reduplication.

Red word (abandon) in Arabic is hajara/ahjuru.
Blue word (go away) in Arabib is daraba.

If we translate DRB as "go away" then it's just a reduplication of HJR, since this word also means : leave, relinquish.

There is no difference between go away and abandon.

DRB can be mean hit, war and go out, this is a homonym.

In FM, DRB translated into "separate", but it's the plausible one even it's not the literal meaning





aqua

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #124 on: January 24, 2014, 05:10:10 PM »
@Aqua

Take this to anyone with expertise in Arabic - the quote is incorrect and the person has made a mistake:

As the dictionary points out - the additional particle is necessary. It is right there in the illustration provided.

Da Ra Ba require the particle 'An.

In the illustration provided, notice the [or] in brackets (it's circled in red) signifying that the word may be used with OR without 'An for that meaning.

The_Chimp

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #125 on: January 24, 2014, 05:23:32 PM »
In the illustration provided, notice the [or] in brackets (it's circled in red) signifying that the word may be used with OR without 'An for that meaning.

No. Please look at the illustration again . . .

It says ضرب عنه or اضرب = to turn away from

And the verb Adraba with additional Alif - is a different class of verb.

In Western Classification it is verb from IV [4].

More details:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_verbs
http://arabic.desert-sky.net/g_vforms.html

aqua

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #126 on: January 24, 2014, 05:50:44 PM »
No. Please look at the illustration again . . .

It says ضرب عنه or اضرب = to turn away from

And the verb Adraba with additional Alif - is a different class of verb.

In Western Classification it is verb from IV [4].

More details:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_verbs
http://arabic.desert-sky.net/g_vforms.html


Well, the verse does use the verb WITH the Alif, so you have no point: 



Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?  The truth is that if you want to beat your wife, you would beat your wife no matter what, you wouldn't care what the Qur'an says.


Man of Faith

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #127 on: January 24, 2014, 05:57:06 PM »
Peace,

Who cares? Who would beat his wife anyway?
Website reference: http://iamthatiam.boards.net

aqua

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #128 on: January 24, 2014, 05:59:48 PM »
Peace,

Who cares? Who would beat his wife anyway?

Unfortunately many men do, and there are even those hypocrites who try to justify it using the Qur'an.

The_Chimp

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #129 on: January 24, 2014, 06:14:50 PM »

Well, the verse does use the verb WITH the Alif, so you have no point: 



Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?  The truth is that if you want to beat your wife, you would beat your wife no matter what, you wouldn't care what the Qur'an says.

I have degree in Arabic have studied the subject extensively. . . so don't ask me - if I am arguing for the sake of arguing. Try not to get "tetchy" - and then blame even that one me.

Note: I am not being rude or making personal remarks about you.

- -

Now back to the issue:

The illustration you provide . . .  that is using the Arabic Verb Form I [1] in the imperative form. Look this up at the same website [word by word] . Whereas, the dictionary is pointing to the standard verb in the fourth form [IV].

- -

As I originally pointed out - you do not have to take my word for it - please do verify it with someone who know Arabic.

I recommend:

http://forum.wordreference.com/forumdisplay.php?f=41

It is impartial language forum and there are several people very good at Arabic.     

- -

I have also checked the better and simply formatted [albeit concise] Hans Wehr - it too equates Verb Form I with 'An - to the verb form IV.