Author Topic: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back  (Read 73872 times)

Wakas

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2010, 03:01:50 PM »
peace Mazhar,

I did not use logic to "behave differently" with Arabic of Quran.

I repeat, this has nothing to do with grammar. There is no grammar rule that disproves or weakens what I have said. Perhaps I can clarify further:

And We strengthened his kingship... [38:20]
and strengthened their form... [76:28]
We shall strengthen your arm/ability... [28:35]
harden upon their hearts... [10:88]
strengthen my resolve... [20:31]

As we can see in every occurrence, something exists in the first place to strengthen/harden. Now let us look to the verse in question:

strengthen the bind... [47:4]

Similarly, some sort of bind MUST exist first before it can be strengthened. This is simple logic and matches perfectly with cross-reference. Interestingly, it uses "al" implying something well known by the addressed audience, but as we can clearly see it is NOT clear in the context what "bind" refers to (unless we use my rendering). It also uses "al" prior to RQB.

Interestingly, Traditional Tafsirs (altafsir.com) also mention this possibility along with the common understanding. Ibn 'Abbas: "...and taken them prisoners, (then making fast of bonds) keep the prisoners in captivity...". Tafsir al-Jalalayn: "take them captive and bind firmly, the bonds (al-wathāq is what is used to bind [yūthaqu] a captive).". Is it a mere coincidence that it just so happens al-wathaq is what is used to bind captives/RQB?
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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Mazhar

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #41 on: May 29, 2010, 10:31:45 AM »
Quote
Interestingly, it uses "al" implying something well known by the addressed audience, but as we can clearly see it is NOT clear in the context what "bind" refers to (unless we use my rendering). It also uses "al" prior to RQB.

This rather further confirms that الْوَثَاقَ has nothing to do with الرِّقَابِ. Both are independent of each other.["al" implying something well known by the addressed audience] This is done when the already known/mentioned is in indefinite state.

Quote
I repeat, this has nothing to do with grammar. There is no grammar rule that disproves or weakens what I have said. Perhaps I can clarify further:

And We strengthened his kingship... [38:20]
and strengthened their form... [76:28]
We shall strengthen your arm/ability... [28:35]
harden upon their hearts... [10:88]
strengthen my resolve... [20:31
As we can see in every occurrence, something exists in the first place to strengthen/harden.

Seen from this angle/logic too, what exists is this:
أَثْخَنتُمُوهُمْ

Wakas

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2010, 05:47:53 AM »
peace Mazhar,

I have no problem with them being independent terms.

Can you clarify what you mean by both of the following and how/if it relates to 47:4
Quote
This is done when the already known/mentioned is in indefinite state.

Quote
Seen from this angle/logic too, what exists is this:


Also, can you please provide your rendering of 47:4 so we can see what the alternatives are. From my studies, whilst other alternatives are possible, they are not the strongest option.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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Mazhar

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2010, 06:19:58 AM »
Peace

Quote
This is done when the already known/mentioned is in indefinite state.

This was to clarify this comment
Quote
Interestingly, it uses "al" implying something well known by the addressed audience, but as we can clearly see it is NOT clear in the context what "bind" refers to (unless we use my rendering). It also uses "al" prior to RQB.

"Al" suffixed to a subsequent word to indicate a known thing, a thing mentioned earlier, in such case the earlier noun is indefinite and not definite by "al". That is why I pointed out that the presumption of relationship indicated in the above quote is not correct.

Quote
Seen from this angle/logic too, what exists is this:

This was to clarify about this observation
Quote
As we can see in every occurrence, something exists in the first place to strengthen/harden.

What existed was indicated which is أَثْخَنتُمُوهُمْ.



Wakas

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #44 on: May 30, 2010, 06:28:06 AM »
peace,

Re: "al"
Thanks for clarifying. I understand what you meant now. I did not mean I was linking them grammatically, in case that was unclear. I just meant both RQB and WThQ are something well known to the addressed audience.


I do not understand your last point. Are you implying what is "strengthened" is indicated by the suffix "hum/them"?

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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Mazhar

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #45 on: May 30, 2010, 06:36:36 AM »
 Your point is that something exists in the first place to strengthen/harden. I am suggesting that from this angle also the "thing" that exists for the said purpose is those of the enemies who have since dropped weapon, have been made exhausted to stand further. These people are to be subjected to tightened arrest.   

Wakas

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #46 on: May 30, 2010, 07:49:17 AM »
Are you implying ShDD does NOT apply to al WThQ?

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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Mazhar

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #47 on: May 30, 2010, 08:11:58 AM »
Are you implying ShDD does NOT apply to al WThQ?



I wrote WThQ is the direct object of verb ShDD.

Mazhar

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #48 on: June 03, 2010, 09:32:05 AM »
Quote
Fakayfa itha tawaffathumu almalaikatu yadriboona wujoohahum wa adbarahum
= So/then how (will it be) when the angels/controllers* take them (unto themselves, i.e. in death) striking their faces/fronts and their backs?
[47:27]

*angels is better translated as controllers, i.e. forces in control of certain functions/laws. There are some controllers we know about, e.g. those found in nature: F=ma, E=mc? etc. and some we do not know about.

In the above two verses, translators commonly use "beat / strike / smite", and whilst this may seem acceptable on the surface this translation does have significant problems when examined more closely:

In 8:50 it says if only you could see, thus clearly implying that what the controllers are doing cannot be seen. And since it is at the time of death, then the controllers cannot be striking the physical fronts/faces and backs as this would be observable. It could be suggested that at death, this is a special/unique transition phase so perhaps the controllers are indeed beating/striking but in a different form somehow, and the living simply cannot see it.

It causes problems with verses such as 7:37, 16:28, 8:51, 6:93-94 in which the controllers are in communication with people being taken at death, and the ones taken are listening properly and answering, but this is highly unlikely if they are being beaten at the same time!

It causes a clear problem with 6:93 when it describes the controllers as stretching/extending forth or opening their hands/powers when taking them at death saying "Bring out your souls...". This sounds unlike striking/beating, and there is no implication of this in the verse at all.

If this is indeed a beating/striking causing pain in some way, then this would be the only example in The Quran of an explicit punishment between death and the 'day of obligation/judgement/requital/due'.
In contrast, the controllers take those who are good with a greeting of peace/salam in 16:32 and there is no mention of taking them gently for example.

Salam Wakas,

This is all based on the premise that the point in time is worldly "death"? But the fact is that wherever such thing is mentioned that is the scene after the resurrection. Nowhere word "Maut" is used.


Wakas

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #49 on: June 03, 2010, 12:22:28 PM »
peace Mazhar,

Can you clarify where 8:50 & 47:27 fit into your sequence?

living ---> death ---> resurrection ---> judgement ---> punishment/reward



Thanks.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org