Author Topic: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back  (Read 70996 times)

Wakas

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 11323
  • Karma +14/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2010, 12:41:01 PM »
peace sis,

The word DRB has a certain connotation and is the perfect word in 47:4, not "take". In the www.Quran434.com study:

Quote
It seems that the default meaning of DRB is "to put/show forth (from one person/place to another person/place)". This core meaning fits into every occurrence, and thus could be seen as its basic/core meaning. Lane's Lexicon states that its meaning is "to put into commotion" which is similar. Of course, with various prepositions and subject matter, this basic meaning can be refined and better rendered depending on situation.

From one place to another may be from non-existence to existence or somewhere intangible to somewhere tangible. For example, when AQ says "DRB an example" it means the example is put/shown forth, brought about, e.g. from God to us, or when a person "DRB an example" they took it from their mind and brought it out in the open by verbalising it, i.e. they DRB'd it.
Similarly, no RQB exists yet, we are commanded to DRB the RQB, i.e. bring about RQB/captives. This is likely why Lane states one of its meanings is exactly this.

Quote
Can you point me towards where DRB is used as "bring about" in the quran, also? I read through the link but couldn't find any such occurrence. I find concordance helpful.

Although I prefer "put/show forth" generally, you can see any AQ occurrence of DRB when applied to a direct object (e.g. Jesus, parable, truth, falsehood, a dry path, wall).

Quote
What do you mean more equal-footed fighting, just so I have a solid idea of what you mean here?

I mean anything less or prior to subdued/overcome them.

Quote
Seriously, it doesn't make sense for captives x1 to be captives x2 after open/active fighting as I explained in my last post.
I dont understand your objection, as it makes perfect sense to me. As a side note, Edip/RQT's translation also mentions my rendition as a possibility, at the end of their verse note: "Considering the context of the verse and emphasis on capturing the enemy, we could have translated the segment under discussion as, "aim to take captives."

Quote
This is in reference to 47:4.

You did not quite answer what I wanted. As far as I am aware, no CAD specifically mentions 47:4. I think you are misreading what sister Samia said, she is using an understanding of RQB found in lisaanul 3arab and inserting it in 47:4.

Quote
I have nothing against your translation bro,I respect your hard work immensely, I just want it to make sense to me

Of course, we are both here to learn. I did not take it any other way.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

savage_carrot

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 6683
  • Karma +16/-2
Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2010, 02:02:19 PM »
Peace bro,

Quote
From one place to another may be from non-existence to existence or somewhere intangible to somewhere tangible. For example, when AQ says "DRB an example" it means the example is put/shown forth, brought about, e.g. from God to us, or when a person "DRB an example" they took it from their mind and brought it out in the open by verbalising it, i.e. they DRB'd it. Similarly, no RQB exists yet, we are commanded to DRB the RQB, i.e. bring about RQB/captives. This is likely why Lane states one of its meanings is exactly this.
Let's take the RQB example. We know no captives exist unless we capture them. So, if we are being told to capture the enemy instead of killing them as a preference and I have two choices as a command, take or bring about, I'd choose take because it's clearer. There really isn't any point in arguing this further.

Quote
Although I prefer "put/show forth" generally, you can see any AQ occurrence of DRB when applied to a direct object (e.g. Jesus, parable, truth, falsehood, a dry path, wall).
I don't see put/show forth as an apt choice for the command to take the enemy captive. I don't think one can argue this any further, it is what it is.
Quote
I mean anything less or prior to subdued/overcome them.
It doesn't address my query imo.

Quote
I dont understand your objection, as it makes perfect sense to me. As a side note, Edip/RQT's translation also mentions my rendition as a possibility, at the end of their verse note: "Considering the context of the verse and emphasis on capturing the enemy, we could have translated the segment under discussion as, "aim to take captives."
Since I have no bone to pick with you, I'm coming in with no real bias and I have a decent grasp of the language...it should be easy to get but it's not, it's a bit convoluted which it shouldn't be in my opinion.

Quote
You did not quite answer what I wanted. As far as I am aware, no CAD specifically mentions 47:4. I think you are misreading what sister Samia said, she is using an understanding of RQB found in lisaanul 3arab and inserting it in 47:4.
You asked if 47:4 was specifically mentioned in Lisaan, I gave you her exact quote in reference to 47:4 that she and I were discussing. If there's a problem with her understanding of RQB, let me know and I'll forward her the info.
God has a plan, Gaius. He has a plan for everything and everyone.

Wakas

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 11323
  • Karma +14/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2010, 02:24:05 PM »
peace sis,

Feel free to use "make, cause to be, constitute", as mentioned in Lane.

But for sake of argument, let's say my wording is convoluted, let's look at the alternatives. What are they? All other options I have seen are flawed more significantly than: subjectively "convoluted" wording. If you can provide what you feel is the best rendering of "DRB al RQB" we can examine it.


And no, there is no problem with Samia's understanding of RQB. Lisaan does not reference 47:4, neither under DRB or RQB however. That is what I was clarifying.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Mazhar

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 7431
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2010, 03:20:42 PM »
Quote
In 47:4 it could mean to attack the vanguard according to lisannul 3arab. It may be the plural of "raqeeb" which is still used as a rank in the army "sergeant"...(Thanks Samia)

Sister Samia I wish you all happiness. For the purpose of seeking guidance and expert opinion, I want to point out that I recall to have checked it somewhere [now I am not able to find it where I got it] that plural of رقيب is رُقَبَاءُ while رَقَبَةٌ is the singular of رِقَابٌ.

I may clarify that رِقَابٌ was later started being used for the whole human body and metonimically [عرف]it also became the name for referring to slaves.

savage_carrot

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 6683
  • Karma +16/-2
Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2010, 03:57:02 PM »
pax bro,

I'll "bring about" a rendering I think is best and then "make" it appear on the thread. Then we shall see which "puts forth" it's best foot, and that one might have "cause to be" "constituted" as the WINNAR.

After I'm done doing what I should be doing...I let captives distract me but then they are so darn captivating.
God has a plan, Gaius. He has a plan for everything and everyone.

Mazhar

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 7431
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2010, 04:13:06 PM »
Quote
4) If they were supposed to be beheaded, there would not be a need for an instruction regarding captives. Thus to overcome this apparent omission, many traditional commentators translate "fa shuddoo al wathaqa" as "then tie the bond" and say this refers to taking prisoners of war. However, the word "strengthen/tighten (Arabic: shuddoo)" implies a pre-existing thing to strengthen/tighten (see its usage in 38:20, 76:28, 28:35, 10:88, 20:31), but if this is true, where is it in context? It can only relate to "darba al rriqabi", and thus provides strong proof that this phrase is about bringing about captives from the enemy.

The highlighted presumption seems to be making things perplexed. In Arabic the object of the verb does not ordinarily precede the subject of the verb. If the object of the verb has succeded there can't be an object after it. Here the object of the verb appears after the subject of the verb. Therefore, presumption is baseless and unfounded. The conditionaility, situation arisen necessitating this action has been mentioned immediately before it, and there is no such precedence, to my knowledge, in Grammer rules which could permit stretching it to relate it to  "darba al rriqabi".
Thanks.

savage_carrot

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 6683
  • Karma +16/-2
Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2010, 04:29:16 PM »
Thanks for the information Mazhar. This is probably why most translations have it referring to إِذَا أَثْخَنتُمُوهُمْ

Peace.
God has a plan, Gaius. He has a plan for everything and everyone.

Wakas

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 11323
  • Karma +14/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2010, 04:51:44 PM »
peace Mazhar,

That's because I did not base it on grammar, I based it on logic and cross-reference. In all of AQ the same form shuddoo refers to a pre-existing thing to strengthen/tighten/harden/etc. If you disagree, please provide the AQ reference(s).
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Mazhar

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 7431
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2010, 12:30:47 AM »
Salam Wakas,

Even on logic and cross-reference I do not find any rationale to assume or conclude like that. In all the cross-references quoted there (see its usage in 38:20, 76:28, 28:35, 10:88, 20:31), the object of the verb is mentioned immediately after. For the act/verb of solidification and/or strengthening we need to mention the object.

Logic does not permit with reference to a sentence/statement in the words of any language to relate the answer to the condition to a cognate adverb used earlier in the sentence instead of relating it to the condition. Logic does not permit to behave differently with Arabic of Qur'aan. 


Ayisha

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 2782
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2010, 01:35:53 AM »


Interestingly, someone with a *cough* traditional bent of mind reading it came up with : We are apparently being told to put forth captives as human shields when we encounter the kafirs. These will face the brunt of the battle, and then after we've won the battle, we strengthen the binds of these captives left alive somehow after being used as cannon fodder when the battle is won. This would mean essentially to tie them up again to use them for the next battle because they are now veterans with experience and will serve us well. More so than just rookie captives, with no experience whatsoever. Additionally, this serves as a two pronged defense as well. On one hand, they will take the brunt of the attack and on the other, if the kafirs know them as their brothers and sisters, they might not attack as well as we would think. This is truly brilliant. We must make sure to release them or exchange them as soon as the war ends, I have no issues on that front as long as they've served us well.

His gf (strange for a traditionalist, yes) then came up with: Maybe this is pointing to the kafirs throwing people marked as captives at us as we meet them in battle? The captives are thus brought about from the kafirs, the evildoers just catapulted their village idiots at us in a vain bid to succeed. Maybe they use it as a throwing sand in our eyes tactic? We MUST then bind them strongly after we've won because Allah knows, if the kafirs didn't want them, there must be something seriously wrong with them...<thankfully, they stopped here>

Some peeps have scary minds  :o :o :o
In the name of God, The Compassionate, The Merciful.
Praise be to God, Lord of the Universe,
The Compassionate, The Merciful,
Sovereign of the Day of Judgement!
You alone we worship, and to You alone we turn for help.
Guide us to the straight path,
The path of those You have favoured,
Not of those who have incurred Your wrath,
Nor of those who have gone astray.