Author Topic: Hadith Rejectors' claim: Qur'an is sufficient  (Read 12510 times)

hope4

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Hadith Rejectors' claim: Qur'an is sufficient
« on: January 19, 2010, 05:07:58 PM »
Selam

I was browsing around a sunni forum and found the following. Thought you guys might like to see it and maybe answer their questions.
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?29392-Hadith-Rejectors-claim-Qur-an-is-sufficient&highlight=Sabuni

Hadith Rejectors' claim: Qur'an is sufficient
I am not a Scholar but I want to provide assistance regarding in response to the Hadith Rejectors.

I recommend checking out Shah Shahidullah Farida's work on The Fallacies of Anti-Hadith Arguments (http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=1846&CATE=120)

Few Questions to Ask Hadith Rejectors

How do you perform Salat?
Can a common person find out how many Rakat's there are?
Can we perform Salat when we are naked?
Is it ok to perform Salat right behind a Woman, behind her behind?
How do you determine the amount to give for Zakat?
How much is the Jizya tax?
Can men look at naked men?
Is Cross Dressing Permissible?
Is Alcohol permissible, how do we know which verse came first?
Is Vinegar Haram since it comes from Wine?
How do we get Married?
Can we eat Monkeys or Tigers or Bears?
Can we sodomize our Wives?
Can we read the Bible for Guidance?
If a male has Madhy does he require Ghusl?
If in travel, how do we shorten the prayer?
If in travel, could travel mean across the street, what is the length?

Prophetic Hadith proving Authenticity of Hadith

The Prophet (salalahu alahi wasalam), according to the hadith, prophecised many things to come such are examples (excluding the minor signs such as fornication, widespread, much killing etc) that were fulfilled:

1. Prophecy of Abu Bakr (ra) to take over the Muslim Ummah
2. Prophecy of the Conquest of Egypt
3. Prophecy of the end of the Persian and Roman Empires
4. Prophecy of Umar's (ra) Murder
5. Prophecy of Uthman's (ra) Trials
6. Prophecy of Amaar Ibn Yaasir's Killing
7. Prophecy of the time period of the the Khalifa-ul-Rashidun
8. Prophecy of Imam Hasan (ra) uniting two groups of Muslims
9. Prophecy of the Martyrdom of Umm Haram Bint Milhaan (ra)
10. Prophecy of the Muslim Armies reaching Sidnh and India
11. Prophecy of the Muslims fighting the Turks
12. Prophecy of the Fire in the Land of Hijaaz
13. Prophecy of the conquest of Constantinople
14. Prophecy of the coming of False Prophets
15. Prophecy of Masjid Al-Nabi becoming a "White Castle" as Dajjal refers too
16. Prophecy of Fitna past 60 AH (Imam Husayn's Maryrdom)

Evidences of Early Hadith Compilations before Sahih Bukhari (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/hadith.html):

1. The Sahifa Of Hammam bin Munabbih, student of the Sahabi Abu Huraira (ra) - 98 out of 138 Hadith are found in Bukhari and Muslim
2. The Musannaf of `Abd al-Razzaq al-San`ani - A first century AH Hadith compilation
3. The Muwatta' of Malik bin Anas (mid-second century AH)
4. Musannaf of Ibn Jurayj
5. Musannaf of Ma`mar bin Rashid

The Qur'an Speaks

"It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered a messenger from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom,- although they had been, before, in manifest error;- " (Qur'an 62:02)

"Say: 'If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.' Say: "Obey Allah and His Messenger": But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith." (Qur'an 3:31-32) - Note Rasul mentioned here is not "Qur'an", as logically Obeying Allah is through Qur'an and Obeying the Rasul is through Prophet Muhammad (salalahu alahi wasalam)

Prophets in the past commanded for the People to Obey them:

Nuh (as) - "So fear Allah, and obey me." (Qur'an 26:108)
Hud (as) - "So fear Allah and obey me." (Qur'an 26:126)
Salih (as) - "So fear Allah, and obey me." (Qur'an 26:144)
Lut (as) - "So fear Allah and obey me." (Qur'an 26:163)
Shu'ab (as) - "So fear Allah and obey me." (Qur'an 26:179)
Isa bin Maryam (as) - "...therefore fear Allah and obey me." (Qur'an 43:63)

Allah knows best


 :peace:
Knowledge is understanding that a tomato is a fruit.
Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.

SarahY

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Re: Hadith Rejectors' claim: Qur'an is sufficient
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2010, 09:54:15 PM »
A quick reply:

How do you perform Salat? People do it differently

[i]Can a common person find out how many Rakat's there are?[/i] Even hadith isn’t clear about it. Salat doesn’t say it has Rakat

Can we perform Salat when we are naked? Why does that matter? Kind of a weird question.

Is it ok to perform Salat right behind a Woman, behind her behind?[/b]
Lol is it ok if a women bends down to pick up something from the ground or is it to distracting “oh no I dropped my purse, oh well can’t bend down and get it” someone might see behind my behind lol

How do you determine the amount to give for Zakat? Zakat isn’t money? how do you determine the amount of sadaqa/infaq?

How much is the Jizya tax? [/u] No idea

[i]Can men look at naked men? [/i]If they have their oaths

Is Cross Dressing Permissible[/u]? No idea, my nephews dressed up in my heels does it make em kiffars lol

Is Alcohol permissible, how do we know which verse came first?
It should be shunned but it’s not “haram”

Is Vinegar Haram since it comes from Wine?
No It’s not an intoxication
How do we get Married?[/i] I’m reading up on this.

Can we eat Monkeys or Tigers or Bears? Not sure about this, but i wouldn't. but hey they can eat a pig in a dessert if there is nothing else around, what makes them other animals diff?

Can we sodomize our Wives?
Shias, do it pick on them

Can we read the Bible for Guidance? Why not? Take the good leave the bad. through true guidance is Quran.

If a male has Madhy does he require Ghusl?
Doesn’t any impurity require ghusl?

[i]If in travel, how do we shorten the prayer? [/i]Whatever one see’s fit?

[i]If in travel, could travel mean across the street, what is the length?[/i] Does it need to be specified? What if it was 1m away from the given length, how long is a piece of string?

Quote
Prophetic Hadith proving Authenticity of Hadith

The Prophet (salalahu alahi wasalam), according to the hadith, prophecised many things to come such are examples (excluding the minor signs such as fornication, widespread, much killing etc) that were fulfilled:

1. Prophecy of Abu Bakr (ra) to take over the Muslim Ummah
2. Prophecy of the Conquest of Egypt
3. Prophecy of the end of the Persian and Roman Empires
4. Prophecy of Umar's (ra) Murder
5. Prophecy of Uthman's (ra) Trials
6. Prophecy of Amaar Ibn Yaasir's Killing
7. Prophecy of the time period of the the Khalifa-ul-Rashidun
8. Prophecy of Imam Hasan (ra) uniting two groups of Muslims
9. Prophecy of the Martyrdom of Umm Haram Bint Milhaan (ra)
10. Prophecy of the Muslim Armies reaching Sidnh and India
11. Prophecy of the Muslims fighting the Turks
12. Prophecy of the Fire in the Land of Hijaaz
13. Prophecy of the conquest of Constantinople
14. Prophecy of the coming of False Prophets
15. Prophecy of Masjid Al-Nabi becoming a "White Castle" as Dajjal refers too
16. Prophecy of Fitna past 60 AH (Imam Husayn's Maryrdom)

Question, did "these" recording of hadith happen after or before these events? anyway no one denies there can be truth in hadith. But taking it as a source of guidance is something else

Quote
Prophets in the past commanded for the People to Obey them:

Nuh (as) - "So fear Allah, and obey me." (Qur'an 26:108)
Hud (as) - "So fear Allah and obey me." (Qur'an 26:126)
Salih (as) - "So fear Allah, and obey me." (Qur'an 26:144)
Lut (as) - "So fear Allah and obey me." (Qur'an 26:163)
Shu'ab (as) - "So fear Allah and obey me." (Qur'an 26:179)
Isa bin Maryam (as) - "...therefore fear Allah and obey me." (Qur'an 43:63)

how would we know how to obey them without the message?
We all have blind spots.
Follow your heart but take your brain with you.
ambiguity is there for a reason, why do you think?
We're all different, so how can we all be equal?

BornAgain

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Re: Hadith Rejectors' claim: Qur'an is sufficient
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2010, 12:57:33 AM »
Salaamun 'Alaikum.

Here are my responses:

Quote
How do you perform Salat?

As Sister Sarah said, people do it differently. But anyway, you can question them back by asking if they follow some Qur'anic guidance to performing salat.

- Do they perform the ablution as per 5:6? When the Qur'an clearly states that only face and hands are washed, and head as well as feet are rubbed. Why do they add the whole blowing the nose, washing the mouth and rubbing the ear?
- When they perform salaat, is the level of voices according to 17:110 which states And thou (Muhammad), be not loud-voiced in thy worship nor yet silent therein, but follow a way between. As far as I know it, the traditional Muslims perform Zuhr and Asr salaats silently
- Do they understand the surahs they are reciting as per 4:43? The verse commands us not to approach salaat when we are intoxicated because we won't understand what we are uttering. So, do they actually understand what they say or do they only memorise short easy surahs?
- Do they address the salaat only to Allah as per 6:162? If so, why do they send salawat to Prophet Muhammad?
- Why is it that they combine their salaats when traveling, when Qur'an says nothing about combining salaats and it only suggests shortening it?

Salaat is personal connection between an individual and God. It makes no sense if it has to follow an exact set of movement because everyone has different way of expressing their feelings towards God. Anyway, there are certain guidance how to perform salaat, which is standing, bowing, sitting and prostrating. Moderate voice. Cleansing oneself. Reciting part of the Qur'an that you understand. And dedicating the salaat solely to Allah. The rest is up to you :).

Quote
Can a common person find out how many Rakat's there are?

Does it really matter? It's not the quantity that matters, it's the quality. If you really desire to have a long connection to God, you can have one loooooong raka'at. I'd say, do whatever makes you feel closer to God.

Quote
Can we perform Salat when we are naked?

Qur'an always endorses modesty and encourages that we dress in garment of piety. Surely you know that being naked is not really modest? Then again, God can see through everything, not just your outside, but your inside. It does not matter if you completely cover yourself, if your heart isn't connecting with God. I cannot see why women have to completely cover themselves when praying; the very purpose of the Qur'an advocating women to guard their modesty is to protect themselves from men attacking them. Does it mean that women have to protect themselves from GOD?

Quote
Is it ok to perform Salat right behind a Woman, behind her behind?

I see no problem with that, unless the men cannot really control their desires from looking some bending actions of women lol. Then again, their minds should be focused on GOD, not what is in front of them.

Quote
How do you determine the amount to give for Zakat?

If they define zakat as charity to be given to the needy, then the amount is up to us to decide, as long as we are not too stingy or too spendy as per 17:29. If God wants us to give 2.5% then that verse will be rendered unnecessary and useless.

It will be interesting to ask why they give zakat per year and not whenever they earn their income as per 6:141.

Quote
Can men look at naked men?

Why the heck do they want to show their nakedness to other anyway? Clearly the Qur'an states that we are to dress ourselves in garment of righteousness as per 7:26

Also, they need to keep in mind about 24:30 about men lowering their gaze. If looking at the same sex' nakedness can make their minds go gagagaga, then it's best that they lower their gaze. Btw... this question is silly -_-

Quote
Is Alcohol permissible, how do we know which verse came first?

As 2:219, 5:90-91, Alcohol is to be avoided as it is intoxicant but it is not haraam. Qur'an does say that it has some benefits, even though the harms far outweighs the benefits.

Quote
Is Vinegar Haram since it comes from Wine?

No, it is not intoxicating so it is not haraam. Have they read the verses 2:173, 5:3 and 6:145 for the list of what is haraam? Read people, read!

Quote
Can we eat Monkeys or Tigers or Bears?

As above. Tell them to read 2:173, 5:3 and 6:145. If they can get themselves to eat monkeys, tigers and bears, by all means, go for it! The Qur'an does not prohibit them. Personally I won't eat them, but that's not because they are haram, but I am not used to their meat. It's more of cultural issues and nothing to do about Islam. I eat chicken livers, legs or necks and people will agree they're halaal. But then in other countries, some Muslims will refuse to eat them because they're not used to them, and can they say that chicken livers, legs or necks are haraam? I don't think so.

Quote
Can we sodomize our Wives?

My understanding is that both sides are comfortable with the ways that the sexual acts are performed. 2:187 says that spouses are garment for each other, meaning they protect and make each other comfortable. I can hardly think that women will take pleasure from sodomy -_-;;. It makes women pure sexual objects and not equal partners.

Quote
Can we read the Bible for Guidance?

Why not? There are many ways of attaining knowledge and there are some parts of the Bible that can be used as guidance. To be honest, I find some Biblical references inspiring and I reflect upon them, hoping that I can be a better person. We are gifted with the ability to THINK and decide for ourselves. As long as we can critically use our minds when reading other Scriptures, I can see anything wrong with that. Qur'an encourages critical thinking and not isolating our minds in a tiny box.

Quote
If a male has Madhy does he require Ghusl?

Same as what Sister Sarah has posted.

Quote
If in travel, how do we shorten the prayer?

This question is unbelievable. Shortening means making the time shortER. If we usually pray for 20 minutes, then it is no harm if you reduce the time to 15, 10, or 5 minutes depending on the circumstances.

Quote
If in travel, could travel mean across the street, what is the length?

Again, ridiculous question. Across the street is not travel, it's strolling -_-. I believe that shortening prayer is allowed for people who, if by traveling, will subject themselves to danger as per 2:239. The idea of shortening the prayer in 2:239, is to not expose ourselves to danger for too long.

Quote
Nuh (as) - "So fear Allah, and obey me." (Qur'an 26:108)
Hud (as) - "So fear Allah and obey me." (Qur'an 26:126)
Salih (as) - "So fear Allah, and obey me." (Qur'an 26:144)
Lut (as) - "So fear Allah and obey me." (Qur'an 26:163)
Shu'ab (as) - "So fear Allah and obey me." (Qur'an 26:179)
Isa bin Maryam (as) - "...therefore fear Allah and obey me." (Qur'an 43:63)


Indeed! That is my following the Message delivered. We can know what Prophet Muhammad said and preached by reading the Qur'an! That's why many commandments start with 'Say'. That is God's commandments to Prophet Muhammad, which would later be preached by him.

I do obey the Prophets by following the Qur'an. And No, I do NOT follow man-made rules/hadiths/Sunnahs that are attributed to Prophet Muhammad. InshaAllah, I follow the Sunatullah [in the Qur'an] and NOT Sunnah Al-Bukhari, Al-Muslim, Al-Tirmidzi blah blah blaaaaaaaaah...

Oh, funny how they don't 'obey' Prophet Isa as they 'obey' Prophet Muhammad. I don't see the men growing/curling their hair or wearing white cloak so they will resemble how Prophet Isa/Jesus [is portrayed to] look.

Anyway... just my $ 0.02. Feel free to disagree.

‘For peace of mind, we need to resign as general manager of the universe.’

‘When you judge another you do not define them, you define yourself.’

‘Time may heal physical pain but only love can heal emotional pain.’

‘My life has been full of terrible misfortunes, most of which never happened.’

SarahY

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Re: Hadith Rejectors' claim: Qur'an is sufficient
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2010, 02:31:26 AM »
Sweet, you been doing some research.

Well done BornAgain *claps*  erm i got lazy with the verses :P

Walaikum asalam.

 
We all have blind spots.
Follow your heart but take your brain with you.
ambiguity is there for a reason, why do you think?
We're all different, so how can we all be equal?

BornAgain

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Re: Hadith Rejectors' claim: Qur'an is sufficient
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2010, 02:44:04 AM »
Providing verses is the least I can do Sister Sarah. It has always frustrated me when talking to some traditional Muslims and they always say, you need the Hadiths to explain the Qur'an. How do you do this or that? Well... I really want to shout out loud, read the Qur'an, Brother and Sister! xp.

But hey... it's all good. I get to learn and understand more by doing this :)
‘For peace of mind, we need to resign as general manager of the universe.’

‘When you judge another you do not define them, you define yourself.’

‘Time may heal physical pain but only love can heal emotional pain.’

‘My life has been full of terrible misfortunes, most of which never happened.’

hope4

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Re: Hadith Rejectors' claim: Qur'an is sufficient
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2010, 11:24:31 AM »
Selam

Thank you for your explenations. I am sure they won't accept it, but deep down it will get them to think. They are very agressive in them forums. I was just reading and not replying but I can see the exchanges, you can almost feel the tension  ;D

 :peace:
Knowledge is understanding that a tomato is a fruit.
Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.

MUNZIR ALI

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Re: Hadith Rejectors' claim: Qur'an is sufficient
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2010, 12:19:09 AM »
I've got a question for them

Why the heck do you ask stupid questions?

SarahY

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Re: Hadith Rejectors' claim: Qur'an is sufficient
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2010, 01:15:00 AM »
Selam

Thank you for your explenations. I am sure they won't accept it, but deep down it will get them to think. They are very agressive in them forums. I was just reading and not replying but I can see the exchanges, you can almost feel the tension  ;D

 :peace:

Umar said "wa-inni wallahi la ulabbis Kitab Allah bi-shayy`in abadan" (By God! I will never clothe the Qur'an with any thing)". Taken from Hadith as Scripture by Aisha Y Musa p.25. so far i'm enjoying this book. even the great sahabi rejected hadith documentation and many sahabi burnt hadiths that were written. if in the early times these documents were burnt, is it not a worry to really appreciate the "soundness" of hadith?

Even prophet says his people have discarded the Quran, people have taken Quran majhooran (25:30)

Furthermore Quran tells us the people before are an example!! and they turned awayy

24:34 (Asad) AND, INDEED, from on high have We bestowed upon you messages clearly showing the truth, and [many] a lesson from [the stories of] those who have passed away before you, and [many] an admonition to the God-conscious.

13:30 (Asad) Thus have We raised thee [O Muhammad] as Our Apostle amidst a community [of unbelievers] before whose time [similar] communities have come and gone, so that thou might propound to them what We have revealed unto thee: for [in their ignorance] they deny the Most Gracious ! Say: "He is my Sustainer. There is no deity save Him. In Him have I placed my trust, and unto Him is my recourse!"

Peace
We all have blind spots.
Follow your heart but take your brain with you.
ambiguity is there for a reason, why do you think?
We're all different, so how can we all be equal?

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Bigmo

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Re: Hadith Rejectors' claim: Qur'an is sufficient
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2010, 07:06:35 PM »
Selam

I was browsing around a sunni forum and found the following. Thought you guys might like to see it and maybe answer their questions.
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?29392-Hadith-Rejectors-claim-Qur-an-is-sufficient&highlight=Sabuni

Hadith Rejectors' claim: Qur'an is sufficient
I am not a Scholar but I want to provide assistance regarding in response to the Hadith Rejectors.

I recommend checking out Shah Shahidullah Farida's work on The Fallacies of Anti-Hadith Arguments (http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=1846&CATE=120)

Few Questions to Ask Hadith Rejectors

How do you perform Salat?
Can a common person find out how many Rakat's there are?
Can we perform Salat when we are naked?
Is it ok to perform Salat right behind a Woman, behind her behind?
How do you determine the amount to give for Zakat?
How much is the Jizya tax?
Can men look at naked men?
Is Cross Dressing Permissible?
Is Alcohol permissible, how do we know which verse came first?
Is Vinegar Haram since it comes from Wine?
How do we get Married?
Can we eat Monkeys or Tigers or Bears?
Can we sodomize our Wives?
Can we read the Bible for Guidance?
If a male has Madhy does he require Ghusl?
If in travel, how do we shorten the prayer?
If in travel, could travel mean across the street, what is the length?

Prophetic Hadith proving Authenticity of Hadith

The Prophet (salalahu alahi wasalam), according to the hadith, prophecised many things to come such are examples (excluding the minor signs such as fornication, widespread, much killing etc) that were fulfilled:

1. Prophecy of Abu Bakr (ra) to take over the Muslim Ummah
2. Prophecy of the Conquest of Egypt
3. Prophecy of the end of the Persian and Roman Empires
4. Prophecy of Umar's (ra) Murder
5. Prophecy of Uthman's (ra) Trials
6. Prophecy of Amaar Ibn Yaasir's Killing
7. Prophecy of the time period of the the Khalifa-ul-Rashidun
8. Prophecy of Imam Hasan (ra) uniting two groups of Muslims
9. Prophecy of the Martyrdom of Umm Haram Bint Milhaan (ra)
10. Prophecy of the Muslim Armies reaching Sidnh and India
11. Prophecy of the Muslims fighting the Turks
12. Prophecy of the Fire in the Land of Hijaaz
13. Prophecy of the conquest of Constantinople
14. Prophecy of the coming of False Prophets
15. Prophecy of Masjid Al-Nabi becoming a "White Castle" as Dajjal refers too
16. Prophecy of Fitna past 60 AH (Imam Husayn's Maryrdom)

Evidences of Early Hadith Compilations before Sahih Bukhari (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/hadith.html):

1. The Sahifa Of Hammam bin Munabbih, student of the Sahabi Abu Huraira (ra) - 98 out of 138 Hadith are found in Bukhari and Muslim
2. The Musannaf of `Abd al-Razzaq al-San`ani - A first century AH Hadith compilation
3. The Muwatta' of Malik bin Anas (mid-second century AH)
4. Musannaf of Ibn Jurayj
5. Musannaf of Ma`mar bin Rashid

The Qur'an Speaks

"It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered a messenger from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom,- although they had been, before, in manifest error;- " (Qur'an 62:02)

"Say: 'If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.' Say: "Obey Allah and His Messenger": But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith." (Qur'an 3:31-32) - Note Rasul mentioned here is not "Qur'an", as logically Obeying Allah is through Qur'an and Obeying the Rasul is through Prophet Muhammad (salalahu alahi wasalam)

Prophets in the past commanded for the People to Obey them:

Nuh (as) - "So fear Allah, and obey me." (Qur'an 26:108)
Hud (as) - "So fear Allah and obey me." (Qur'an 26:126)
Salih (as) - "So fear Allah, and obey me." (Qur'an 26:144)
Lut (as) - "So fear Allah and obey me." (Qur'an 26:163)
Shu'ab (as) - "So fear Allah and obey me." (Qur'an 26:179)
Isa bin Maryam (as) - "...therefore fear Allah and obey me." (Qur'an 43:63)

Allah knows best


 :peace:

First of all I believe the verses you quoted have been considered abrogatd verses by Sunnis. I have heard Dr Qaradawi refer to these verses as among the verses that Sunni jusrist considered abrogated.

Second, I hears a Christian Trinitarian once say that if we were simply to follow the New Testament without taking into account Christian tradition and consensus then we can not believe in the triniy because, he says, the New Testament is not explicit about it.

I think the real question is. If the scriptures did not explicitly mention something why is it then part of the religion and why is it then necessary? You seem to already have constructed what is Islam and then you say that since this is Islam and its not in the Quran how would you follow Islam is the Quran is your only source.

Well if its not in the Quran than why is it Islam? Which came first, the Quran or Islam?

I still find all this confusing. But its something that Jews use to defend the Talmud, Christians use to defend the Trinity and Muslims use to defend hadiths.
88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe