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How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran

Started by nimnimak_11, January 10, 2010, 03:26:09 AM

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johan

Quote from: noshield30 on June 27, 2012, 08:31:28 PM
IAMOP, your theory doesn't seem to hold water. Married men/women can still lie to people that they want to cheat with and claim that they're not married, and bf/gf relationships do not have to be secret, in fact most bf/gf relationships are made known to almost everyone close to them which includes parents. This is especially true in the west, where my non muslim friends are in a relationship, almost every one of their acquaintances will know about it. Your view that marriage=widely known, relationships=secret is obviously not true.
salam noshield,

what's the significance of having the Quran mention the concept of imra'ah for say al-3azeez and/or 3imraan, etc?

peace,
johan
Peace

nimnimak_11

Quote from: johan on June 27, 2012, 02:01:56 PM
salam nimnimak,

imho marriage/wedlock is a way to proclaim to the public that so and so is my spouse.
if without my consent my spouse commits adultry then it's deemed immoral..we can agree to this..

let's say we exchange the notion of wedlock with that of gf/bf..
how would anyone know whether one has another gf/bf in he(r/s) "portfolio" if it's not known by the public?
would it be immoral for another to have sex with you even though they didn't know that you are with another gf/bf?
wouldn't it just causes too much complication if publicizing your relation with another is made irrelevant?

peace

Salam Johan

Could that not apply to marriages as well? Men or women could hide their marital status (though not with as much ease as they could hide a non-marrital relationship) Say I was married and I was attracted to some girl. I hide my ring and pursue this girl and then portray myself as single and she believes me and i sleep with her. This is the same as me hiding the fact that I have a girlfriend.

Your right in the sense that if sex is exclusive to marriage and everyone upheld this view and only had sex within marriage, then it would be hard to lie and deceive since documents would have to be exposed when trying to marry for the second time. It would be almost impossible to lie and say this is my first marriage.

But this only works if everyone subscribed to this view. If not everyone did, then someone who is married could lie and deceive their way into unlawful sex just as they could if they had a girlfriend.

Similarly if everyone was honest or sufficiently righteous, then they would not lie about their current relationship status and thus there would be no deception.

What some may consider as a serious problem with MMA here is that it is not clear whether one has to be limited to one sexual partner at a time. For example if it was agreed between the two that each can have different MMAs, then I don't see any further restriction is put on by the Quran. Obviously if someone got in a relationship and the agreement was that we don't see other people, then that person is obliged to not see other people and since this is something that would enter the hearts depending on how serious the relationship is, the breaking of such oaths would be obviously wrong.


nimnimak_11

Quote from: johan on June 27, 2012, 10:28:28 PM
salam noshield,

what's the significance of having the Quran mention the concept of imra'ah for say al-3azeez and/or 3imraan, etc?

peace,
johan

Salam Johan

Any chance you could point to a verse where in which those words occur. I am not an arabic speaker and without any verses i have no hope of studying those words and why they are possibly there for.

Thanks

nimnimak_11

Quote from: IAMOP on June 27, 2012, 04:40:00 PM
I can't remember if I posted this earlier but I'll post it anyway.

The clearest argument regarding who to punish for zina is in the example of a person and their legal partner, and a third party who cheats with one of them.

If the third party has no knowledge of the partnership then if 'zina' is restricted to adultery, the question of whether to punish this person for cheating with becomes ambiguous: the person who has been betrayed has experienced evil from TWO people, not one and both of those committed it on purpose. Of course if a person fled their marriage and married another person without notifying the new partner about the prior marriage then the blame is wholly on that person.

Conversely if zina applies totally to any form of non-official relationship then the person cheating on their partner AND the one cheating with them are to be punished. This is straightforward, simple and arguably perfectly just in the sense that there is no grey area where an innocent person may be found to be punished nor can a guilty one feign innocence and get away with it.

As such it is then self-evident that all sexual contact is strictly restricted to relationships backed by official recognition. No secrecy, no pump'n'dump.

Salam IAMOP

What's wrong with relationships being backed by legitimate consent? In your two examples of zina, why would the person who has married be free from punishment whilst the person who has not married be punishable even though they were both deceived?

johan

Quote from: nimnimak_11 on June 28, 2012, 10:18:08 AM
Salam Johan

Any chance you could point to a verse where in which those words occur. I am not an arabic speaker and without any verses i have no hope of studying those words and why they are possibly there for.

Thanks

Salam nimnimak,
here you go..
http://tanzil.net/#search/root/%D9%85%D8%B1%D8%A1

peace
Peace

johan

Quote from: nimnimak_11 on June 28, 2012, 09:56:33 AM
Salam Johan

Could that not apply to marriages as well? Men or women could hide their marital status (though not with as much ease as they could hide a non-marrital relationship) Say I was married and I was attracted to some girl. I hide my ring and pursue this girl and then portray myself as single and she believes me and i sleep with her. This is the same as me hiding the fact that I have a girlfriend.

Your right in the sense that if sex is exclusive to marriage and everyone upheld this view and only had sex within marriage, then it would be hard to lie and deceive since documents would have to be exposed when trying to marry for the second time. It would be almost impossible to lie and say this is my first marriage.

But this only works if everyone subscribed to this view. If not everyone did, then someone who is married could lie and deceive their way into unlawful sex just as they could if they had a girlfriend.

Similarly if everyone was honest or sufficiently righteous, then they would not lie about their current relationship status and thus there would be no deception.

What some may consider as a serious problem with MMA here is that it is not clear whether one has to be limited to one sexual partner at a time. For example if it was agreed between the two that each can have different MMAs, then I don't see any further restriction is put on by the Quran. Obviously if someone got in a relationship and the agreement was that we don't see other people, then that person is obliged to not see other people and since this is something that would enter the hearts depending on how serious the relationship is, the breaking of such oaths would be obviously wrong.

IMHO, rules and regulation only works if there's consensus among the many. since we have made a covenant with Allah SWT, then our assumption is that the consensus is held by many..
even if the majority doesn't, shouldn't we stead fast to the covenant?

Another point is that I actually have a problem with interpretation that MMA is loosely meant some ways of exchanging/relinquishing rights on partnership even for a short time as per this verse:
وَإِنْ أَرَ‌دتُّمُ اسْتِبْدَالَ زَوْجٍ مَّكَانَ زَوْجٍ وَآتَيْتُمْ إِحْدَاهُنَّ قِنطَارً‌ا فَلَا تَأْخُذُوا مِنْهُ شَيْئًا ۚ أَتَأْخُذُونَهُ بُهْتَانًا وَإِثْمًا مُّبِينًا ﴿٢٠﴾
[4:20]
But if you want to replace one wife with another and you have given one of them a great amount [in gifts], do not take from it anything. Would you take it in injustice and manifest sin?

I don't think Quran allows prostitution at all let alone your wife being prostituted to others..

wallahua3lam
Peace

IAMOP

Quote from: nimnimak_11 on June 28, 2012, 10:51:52 AM
Salam IAMOP

What's wrong with relationships being backed by legitimate consent? In your two examples of zina, why would the person who has married be free from punishment whilst the person who has not married be punishable even though they were both deceived?

In response to noshield30 and yourself;

Suppose a wife cheats on her husband with Bob. Bob does not know the woman is married.
From the husband's point of view, both his wife AND Bob caused him pain, they are both to blame. God designed our instincts to feel resent for the 3rd party. So if Bob gets off scot-free, there is resent which God himself placed there for a reason.

Case A: Sex outside of officially recognised relationship is permissible
Wife - GUILTY OF ZINA
Bob - NOT GUILTY

Case B: Sex ONLY within official relationships permitted
Wife - GUILTY OF ZINA (adultery)
Bob - GUILTY OF ZINA by default (fornication)

In case B, Bob can ONLY have sex with the wife if he marries her. If the wife does not tell Bob, it does not matter. Bob MUST marry her and when he goes to do this, the offical registry (or those with authority incl. family) will show that the wife is lying about her status. Hence in this case, Bob retains his innocence. Even if the wife lies and Bob somehow marries her, he is still indisputably innocent. The wife is not in a position to transgress because the system pushes BOTH of them into a stalemate. Zina is a two party crime and the quranic commandment is that BOTH parties are punished. One person cannot be guilty of zina alone because it takes two persons to do the deed.


You can take "marriage" to mean any quranically legitimate relationship. I hope you understand now. Noshield30, please read my posts carefully, you are reading things that are simply not there. This reasoning is axiomatically indisputable, it is a proof by contradiction. Forget what MMA means for now and consider purely the guilt of the outsider to the marriage. The fatal flaw in system A is self-evident. On judgement day it is rather plain that God who designed man to feel hurt by both parties in zina will thusly abase both participants. There is no other way to account fully for the evil committed (leaving forgiveness aside).

We are not concerned with what people are doing, what we are concerned with here is how to have a perfect system. A perfect system cannot be ambiguous and allow the innocent to be punished or the guilty to go free.
As you fall asleep and wake up to a new day
So shall you enter your grave and arise to the last


"Now no person knows what delights of the eye are kept hidden for them - as a reward for their deeds" (32:17)

Wakas

peace/salaam,

Quote from: IAMOP on June 28, 2012, 04:55:26 PM
In response to noshield30 and yourself;

Suppose a wife cheats on her husband with Bob. Bob does not know the woman is married.
From the husband's point of view, both his wife AND Bob caused him pain, they are both to blame. God designed our instincts to feel resent for the 3rd party. So if Bob gets off scot-free, there is resent which God himself placed there for a reason.

Case A: Sex outside of officially recognised relationship is permissible
Wife - GUILTY OF ZINA
Bob - NOT GUILTY

Case B: Sex ONLY within official relationships permitted
Wife - GUILTY OF ZINA (adultery)
Bob - GUILTY OF ZINA by default (fornication)

In case B, Bob can ONLY have sex with the wife if he marries her. If the wife does not tell Bob, it does not matter. Bob MUST marry her and when he goes to do this, the offical registry (or those with authority incl. family) will show that the wife is lying about her status. Hence in this case, Bob retains his innocence. Even if the wife lies and Bob somehow marries her, he is still indisputably innocent. The wife is not in a position to transgress because the system pushes BOTH of them into a stalemate. Zina is a two party crime and the quranic commandment is that BOTH parties are punished. One person cannot be guilty of zina alone because it takes two persons to do the deed.


You can take "marriage" to mean any quranically legitimate relationship. I hope you understand now. Noshield30, please read my posts carefully, you are reading things that are simply not there. This reasoning is axiomatically indisputable, it is a proof by contradiction. Forget what MMA means for now and consider purely the guilt of the outsider to the marriage. The fatal flaw in system A is self-evident. On judgement day it is rather plain that God who designed man to feel hurt by both parties in zina will thusly abase both participants. There is no other way to account fully for the evil committed (leaving forgiveness aside).

We are not concerned with what people are doing, what we are concerned with here is how to have a perfect system. A perfect system cannot be ambiguous and allow the innocent to be punished or the guilty to go free.

Nice angle.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]

nimnimak_11

Peace IAMOP

QuoteGod designed our instincts to feel resent for the 3rd party. So if Bob gets off scot-free, there is resent which God himself placed there for a reason.

I think that in most cases this will be the case (anger at third party). But is it a justified hatred? It depends.

QuoteCase A: Sex outside of officially recognised relationship is permissible
Wife - GUILTY OF ZINA
Bob - NOT GUILTY

Case B: Sex ONLY within official relationships permitted
Wife - GUILTY OF ZINA (adultery)
Bob - GUILTY OF ZINA by default (fornication)

In your examples the only difference between cases A and B is that in a society that practices B, the odds of someone deceiving a third party into thinking that they are not in a relationship is significantly less than that of a society that practices A. For this reason I do agree that it could be said that in society B, there will be less resent towards Bob for they know by default that he was sufficiently careful because of the low odds of deception by the wife in society B. But this is not to say that he is indisputably innocent. Hypothetically you could argue that for various reasons, Bob was in fact under the impression that the wife may in fact be married. Odds of this are low but it is not impossible to render it indisputable.

Important to note is that in the conditions of society A you could have someone who is sufficiently careful also. For example someone might ask around or check in some kind of database whether wife x is a Mrs or Miss or Ms. In court Bob might then say I got in touch with the registry offices and they told me she was single. Other pre-cautions could also fall into place before engaging in any kind of sexual activity which would easily render Bob in society A as sufficiently cautious.

Thus whilst the conditions in society B are more strict thus lowering the possibility of deception, this does not entail that the conditions in society A are wrong. For example some countries will have harsher punishments for stealing than others and thus they will lower their odds of stealing in their respective country. But this does not render their punishments right. Some punishments may be unreasonably harsh.

QuoteYou can take "marriage" to mean any quranically legitimate relationship.
From my understanding that is not how it is. There are specific verses that place certain requirements before one can approach their MMA for nikah. Thus a relationship with MMA and zawj are two different arrangement that are both Quranically legitimate (if this understanding of MMA is correct) thus marriage cannot mean any Quranically legitimate relationship.

QuoteOn judgement day it is rather plain that God who designed man to feel hurt by both parties in zina will thusly abase both participants.

I disagree with this. If I understand you correctly your view is that the level of caution exercised in society A is too low and that in society B, by default it is sufficient to render the third party not guilty. I don't believe that this warrants and outright ban on sex before marriage. If there is a wife that will cheat with someone, then the wife is at fault and the husband who married such a wife was unlucky or unwise in his choice of wife. It may even be argued that if such a wife exists, it may be better that the disease in her heart is exposed. It may also be argued that sex before marriage is beneficial in the sense that it would better help someone judge to whom they should commit to for the rest of their live with regards to starting a family and other marriage like goals.

God will judge whether the likes of Bob in societies A or B was cautious enough before engaging in sex with their MMA. We cannot assume that Bob was sufficiently cautious in society B or A and I think the imposition of the conditions in society B are restrictive of the rights and freedom of individuals and they potentially prohibit a beneficial thing for reasons that are not good enough.

QuoteZina is a two party crime and the quranic commandment is that BOTH parties are punished.

Consider the following:

1) We punish the person who was married and the third party who was not married
2) We punish the person who was married and the third party who was married to them

If we must do 1 (based on there needing to be two to commit the deed thus two to be punished), then surely we must also do 2 for it is the same. I am not sure what you mean by stalemate but if we consider the third party in two as legally married simply for the reason that he was unaware that there was a husband, then this is the same reason Bob would give in 1) that he had lawful sex for he did not know there was a husband. Thus there is no core underlying difference if I understand you correctly. If I have got this wrong please correct me on this.   

I think for a person to be unaware that there is a husband in the picture is sufficient to render them as not guilty of any fahisha or zina. Even if we say that Bob was aware that the wife was married but he himself was not married, then I think this constitutes fahisha for Bob and zina for the wife because Bob is not married whereas the wife is and I think there is a clear difference between the level of wrong on Bob's side if he was in fact married and aware as opposed to not married and aware.

It could be argued that according to the Quran, you only punish both parties for zina, when they have both committed zina. As in the two who committed the act were both Married to someone else.

24:2    The adulteress and the adulterer, you shall lash each of them with one hundred lashes, and do not let any pity overtake you regarding the system of God if you believe in God and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.
24:3    The adulterer will only marry an adulteress or she who is a polytheist. And the adulteress, she will only be married to an adulterer or he who is a polytheist. And such has been made forbidden for the believers

From these verses I do not see that it is necessarily the case that in the act, both should be considered as committing zina. In the case of Bob, you cannot punish an adultrer when there is not one to be found.

nimnimak_11

Quote from: johan on June 28, 2012, 02:02:45 PM
Salam nimnimak,
here you go..
http://tanzil.net/#search/root/%D9%85%D8%B1%D8%A1

peace


Peace Johan.

Thanks. I'l get back to you on this and on your other post when i take a look at them.

Peace