How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran

[nimnimak_11]

Hi Nima,

Do these Ayah's go some way to depict who we may have sex with Br?



So can only wives  bear children; doesn?t girlfriend accidently bear?..

025.074
YUSUFALI: And those who pray, "Our Lord! Grant unto us wives and offspring who will be the comfort of our eyes, and give us (the grace) to lead the righteous."
025.075
YUSUFALI: Those are the ones who will be rewarded with the highest place in heaven, because of their patient constancy: therein shall they be met with salutations and peace,

They were approaching Men rather then those who would be their wives Azwaj where went the girlfriends?

026.165
YUSUFALI: "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males,
026.166
YUSUFALI: "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!"

Again children only from wives, how about the children a girl friend  may get?

016.072
YUSUFALI: And Allah has made for you mates (and companions) of your own nature, and made for you, out of them, sons and daughters and grandchildren, and provided for you sustenance of the best: will they then believe in vain things, and be ungrateful for Allah's favours?-

Children from wives!

013.038
YUSUFALI: We did send messengers before thee, and appointed for them wives and children: and it was never the part of a messenger to bring a sign except as Allah permitted (or commanded). For each period is a Book (revealed).

Hi Simple

I've chosen not to read your post because of your other posts. In particular this one:

Nima , i think, wants the goodies without having to take up the responsibilites which a sexual relationship may throw in his face. Although it's not a concept within the quran , i wonder if it will take off  within the quranic community as it has done in the western culture- i doubt it though.

I really don't see the point or vitue in replying to you beyond this.

Salam

[simple]

Hi Simple

I've chosen not to read your post because of your other posts. In particular this one:
I really don't see the point or vitue in replying to you beyond this.

Salam

I respect that

but still again just consider the Ayah's

[nimnimak_11]

I respect that

but still again just consider the Ayah's

I did. Thanks

Peace

[nimnimak_11]

Peace nimnimak,

I really want to know from you the meaning of oath with example in the context of our discussion.

Let us go back to 33:50-52
Do you mean the quran is refering to the prophet's girl friends where MMA were mentioned in the above verses?

THINK ABOUT IT

ZUBAIRUS

Peace Zubairus

Sorry about the lateish reply. Got a bit distracted.

Oath on it's own is something i can't say in terms of Quran because i'm not sure. I know it's something very important to MMA but i was hoping first to round up all arguments against the act of sex with MMA or arguments for MMA being someting like a slave and then move onto the part of oath which is a very important part as this i think will determine much in terms of boundries and so on. It may even bring a completely different understanding to what an MMA is. But nevertheless i am still trying to conclude that sex with MMA is permissible based on what i have argued so far.

With respect to 33:50
Not necessarily girlfriends. It could be like a fiance or something less. But i would think that it's on the lines of something which leads up to a marriage.
I can only think of relationships that do this. So i would think that it has to fall in the circle of a relationship. But the prophet's time was 1400 years ago i'm not sure how engagement and things like that would have worked back then.

[nimnimak_11]

Peace nimnimak,

In 4:25, the quran said if you do not have the means to wed muhsanat,you may mary MMA from fatayatikum.......

Are you saying by this, if a person has no the means to marry muhsanat, he should go and marry his girl friend ? 

THINK ABOUT IT

ZUBAIRUS

No i was kinda thinking if one has not the means to marry a muhsinat then one should marry fatayatikum. Both i think would have to first become MMA in order to be able to marry them. So both would be a girlfriend or a fiance at some point before marriage. But the difference between a muhsinat and fatayat is something that needs to be clarified as this will shed light on what muhsinat women possess that make them different with respect to fatayat for marriage and how if one has not the means a fatayat will solve the problem.

[nimnimak_11]

I don't believe there is any such thing as sex before marriage. Sex is marriage. Adultery is divorce. So the sins associated with relationships which do not follow the rules of marriage are not about having a 'different kind of sex' - no such thing exists. Rather they are sins of ignoring the proper procedure.

MMA and spouse can be the same because the two kinds of spouse are the wife and the husband.

Hence 4:24 - listing people you can't be married to - "And the married from the women except what your oaths possess"
actually means "and the married women except as their husband".

What about this:

[4:3]
If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.

[liquiddharma]

4:3, the Liquid Dharma translation:

"If you don't think you can look after the orphans well enough, marry the women (their mothers with) 2, 3 or 4 (orphaned children) or of you can't (because you are female), take a husband (fathers of orphaned children) that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice."

Want me to try another one?  

[nsws1988]

4:3, the Liquid Dharma translation:

"If you don't think you can look after the orphans well enough, marry the women (their mothers with) 2, 3 or 4 (orphaned children) or of you can't (because you are female), take a husband (fathers of orphaned children) that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice."

Want me to try another one?  

if you can't = it clearly states in arabic 'if you fear you can't do justice'

take a husband is wrong because 'wahadatan' is feminine not masculine

[SarahY]

Peace Nima,

You can have sex with MMA but you need to do nikkah with MMA to have sex with MMA. that's my understanding.

[SarahY]

Salam Nima

I missed your post before sorry

Ok heres what i think based on the above. The verse also mentions polytheists. Now one can be a polytheist but change to a believer right? thus meaning that they are no longer a polythiest. Same with zina. One who commits zina is an adulterer. But if they change their ways, i don't think we can call them an adulterer anymore. Same with polythiests. Thus as long as they remain that, they are forbidden to believers. But once they become believers, then they are not haram to believers.

Right, people change so we accept them as they are today.

MMA is a limited category.. to me it indicates right hands posses someone you have control of, someone under your care. i.e. such as orphans/widows.

The problem with this is that in order to marry muhsinat women, one must first make them their MMA. The muhsinat must come from MMA in order to marry them. Same with fatayat i think.

No this is wrong. Are you talking about verse 4:25?

Muhsinat is a preference over mma, if you can’t marry muhsinat then marry an MMA. Not marry muhsinat from MMA. It is illogical because muhsinat are independent, mma are not. Get me? We take mma as someone we have an oath but i believe it’s more than this.

Ok from this verse what i get is that if you can't marry the muhsinat (bear in mind that you first need them to be MMA) then marry the dependent women who are your MMA. Which would convey that anyone you do intend to marry must first come through MMA.

Find me the verse that says muhsinat need to first be MMA, maybe I’m looking at the wrong place.

I doubt that a parent can be an MMA based on 24:31. All categories are mentioned and MMA is a seperate one.
From where do you get that MMAs are somebody elses MMA first

?

An MMA can be anyone who isn’t independent someone under someone’s care.  But I think the category is even smaller than that. But anyway if someone is under my care they’re my mma, maybe you choose to marry that person, and verse 4:25 proves that person needs permission from the ahl to marry that mma. But let’s say another scenario. I have an mma and I got married and I no longer wanted to care for that mma or couldn’t or whatever another person could take that mma.

From my reading MMA doesn’t = a gf/bf type relationships

MMA’s arent in the prohibited boundaries of marriage right? so when the verses says protect your frj from azwaj or mma. Well basically it’s saying protect your secret affairs with these people.

Frj can also mean faults (but probably not the strongest translation in this context).

If you marry an mma well than you could have sex with them. IF you marry them so then the frj could mean sex provided you do nikkah with them. Why I say this?

33:50 makes it clear we can marry/nikkah with MMA. MMA aren’t automatically married to us
24:33 MMA’s can’t be coerced to nikkah
4:25 if you want a relationship WITH an MMA you need permission.

sex isn't an automatic given

Also

Read this verse:

33:55 (Asad) [However,] it is no sin for them  [to appear freely] before their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their brothers’ sons, or their sisters’ sons, or their womenfolk, or such [male slaves] as their right hands may possess. But [always, O wives of the Prophet,]  remain conscious of God - for, behold, God is witness unto everything.

The idea of appearing freely, relaxed in dress code in front of their bros etc is the same with MMA. It gives indication it’s not about sex or sexual connotations. For me this is a stronger opinion in regards to mma not being oath partners with allowance of sexual relations because you wouldn’t do that with your brother! Or your sister! 

This is my current understanding

peace