Having relationships before marriage not compatible with quran?

[san]

Peace David_K, that'd make a nice personal blogpost... Thank you for sharing your thoughts

You can feel it deep inside your heart when you see a person that has true beauty. Beauty in my opinion is not only the physical. Beauty is the whole. I am talking about the overall beauty. Not just one part. Physical beauty is only one part of person. But when we look at beauty holistically, only then we can percept what true beauty is. I have talked with women that have so beautiful personalities that their inner beauty surpassed other women that physically were more beautiful than them. This has really opened my eyes to the reality of beauty. I am not exaggerating here. I am definitely not looking for the prettiest woman in the world. If she has the beliefs, character traits and values i look for in a woman, then i will accept her, and start getting to know her. But these women are rare. Especially in the country i live in. And there are no women near my age her that believe in God alone. The true soulmate seems hard to find. So i have not met a woman that understands me completely yet. A woman that can accept me for my beliefs and for who i am....the Real me. But maybe we are not supposed to be read like open books. I guess to know the real me, it will take many years before you can say that you truly know me. I have many sides in my personality, each side more interesting and exciting than the other. I want to find a girl that appreciates me for who i am. An intelligent girl that sees beyound the superfical qualities admired in our society.

...

Where all the unique women hiding? Where are the real women? I am talking about the intelligent girls, those with the character traits and values i look for.

...

When it comes to true love, i hope to experience this true love one day. I hope every sincere person will experience it. I believe true love is unconditional love. Where are all the unique women with a unique personality hiding? Where are the real women? Maybe it's just a fantasy, but i imagine a girl that is rational, real, truthful, moral, wants to know more about the deeper meanings of life. A girl that has clear principals and values. A girl that has goals. A girl that has interests and passions. A girl that wants to visit other countries and learn about other cultures. She is social and adventurous.  A girl that wants to contribute to the society, work in organizations. She wants to live for the akhiraat (Life after death). She off course wants to enjoy life, but in a purposeful way. Not in a meaningless way. A girl that put God first in her life. A girl that likes a guy for his ideas, his talents and his interests and passions. I want to find a girl that appreciates rationality and confidence in men. And sees beyound superficiality.

...

I want to meet someone that also has a good life even dough she is single. She is not dependent on a guy to be successful. I want to find a companion that can walk by side, hand in hand. Not someone that can make my life complete, but someone that can supplement to my already good life.  She knows what she wants in life, and where she want to go. She speaks from the heart and has her own opinions. She challenges me to do the right things in life. We will be equal to eachother in all aspects. She will not be above me or below me. If i am prince, then she will be the princess.

...

You know what, the way you described her, made me wish to meet her too  I can imagine all that -- many are alike to my own fantasies -- but then i would have to force myself to ask this:

When i have found her self, her soul, am i ready to give up entirely on her physique?

Because, like you said, physical beauty is common and overrated ... I have talked with women that have so beautiful personalities that their inner beauty surpassed other women that physically were more beautiful than them. What if she were physiqueless? In other words, what if her soul, her self, is embodied in a physique entirely different to whatever beauty i used to have before i found her?

And then, as tough the first question was to me, i still have to continue with this question:

Am i, my self, worth her self?

What if she, her self, her soul, turned out to be out of my soul's reach? What if what she does in her daily life were far above my imagination?

Is there any choice for me other than to try to tune into her self, her soul, and whatever she's doing in her world, if i were to reach her?

...

That is my personal self-questions that i'd like to share. I've always been living in this fantasy world where i imagined i could just eventually reach whatever i wanted, while not realizing that i didn't put too much effort on the thoughts/plans of how to reach it. Consumed in the far away heaven and losing my path to get there. This is only my personal thoughts and thus let me learn from your experiences. I too sincerely hope that each of us will finally meet his/her zawjan. 


Nice thread.


Peace

[David_K]

Peace David,

I am sorry if I offended you. But no one I know, would ever hang a poster of Martin Luther King or of Einstein, they might have their quotes on their walls, but not their pictures, unless you are referring to the famous "I have a dream" speech photo. I am not going to harp on that technicality, I was mostly joking when I said that anyway.

As for finding the right one, if my experience with friendship is any indicator, it's most likely to be where you can have an exchange of ideas, such as at high school/university etc. But even then, it's often quite random. I don't know what applies in your case, and honestly, I don't even know where I might find the right one in my case either.
Hence, I hope that God has such a chance meeting in store in my future, but I can never know for sure.

Sarah

Peace Sarah,

No need for apologies You didn't offend me.

You are right. University can be a great place to meet people and exchange ideas. However, i have talked to girls in my university, but none of them have had the Belief system (deen), Character traits and values i am looking for. And like says, it's often quite random to find the right one. And is destiny a matter of luck or chance, or is it a matter of choices? That is an important question we need to ask ourselves when it comes to the issue of finding the right one.

Some people might think i am too fastidious. But i disagree. I am just realistic. I am not looking for someone perfect. But she has to believe in God and life after death (through her deeds and actions), and she has to be humble, sincere and close to earth. Is this too much to ask for? I hope not.
There are lots of nice girls here. Maybe if we limit ourselves to only one country (the country we live in) when it comes to finding the right one, then i guess finding the right one will be very hard. Especially if you are fastidious. Maybe one should move to the USA or UK, or some other huge country with a bigger population, because as i said earlier, there are no women near my age that follow "Islam based on the quran" in the "country i live in". In countries like Usa and UK since the population is much greater, therefore the chances of finding the right one will increase. Off course my criteria is not that she has to believe in "Islam based on Quran alone", but that is what i prefer. I want to find a woman that believes in God and afterlife (through her deeds and actions). And since women that believe in "Islam based on Quran alone" believe in God and the afterlife, then if i find such a woman in my country, it will be most preferable. Belief system for me is criteria number one. In the past i used to believe that compatibility is just based on common interests and other less important things. But now i realize that if she don't have the belief system, then all else don't matter. Because if she has the belief system, she will automatically have the values i look for (the permanent values in the Quran), and then she would probably have the character traits i look for as well.

Since most members on this forum believes in God alone and follow Islam based on Quran alone, then the dream of most members here is to find somebody that fully share the same belief as them (Follow Islam based on Quran alone). So why should anybody settle for less, when they deserve somebody compatible? That does not make sense. People should not settle for the first person they meet because of being afraid of being alone. I think it is better to be alone, than to have a partner that don't believe the same as you, and don't care at all. It will be fake relationship because you can never show them your true beliefs, show them the real you. They will not understand you. You have to play roles that you don't want to play. fakeness is not attractive and not enjoyable.

In a great comedy show, in the part about married life, chris rock says that you are either "Single and lonely, or married and bored". haha. And i think the reason for this is that people don't find compatible partners. They settle for people that have a totally different belief system than them. I totally recommend this video by the. Its hilarious. You can watch the part about marriage here:  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6X0Qqxx3f0

I recommend this part of the show as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M902ZJHzaLE&NR=1

[David_K]

@ David
Great post though. There is so much wrong in the world, that sometimes I feel that the only way to see the good in the world is to focus on the few good things one sees/has and cherish them.

Thank you. Yes, and everything starts with us. We are responsible for our lifes, for making our lifes good, focusing on the good, and contributing to our society.
This reminds me of an inspiring quote:

Be the choice you want to see in the world - Gandhi

[David_K]

Salam David,

Good that you still hope, what country are you from?

I think most people have high standards. In regards to your criteria i think you?re being a bit harsh on women even men but i guess maybe it?s just frustration.

Everyone i think is superficial to a certain extent. I mean if all you want is a philosophical women why not go for someone older who has interests or studies philosophy (if the younger ain?t good enough)? I guess because we have other wants such as: we want someone we?d be content with physically and mentally. Older women can be attractive too but then again it comes back to wants. Maybe you want children the likelihood of an older women having children is less likely. I gave the older women example because you?d assume as people age they gain more wisdom/knowledge etc. It?s not a definite or a given.

I don?t think it?s about women not caring about philosophers or science. People aren?t exposed to things the way maybe you are also people may have negative dispositions due to experience (or whatever reason). So when they look at things, they may not be as keen or proactive. People deserve to have a chance that requires time and patience even the right environment i.e. resources and support.  

People just wanna live and peoples understanding of living differs. If most of society tells women and men what they should be like. Most women/men will follow that discourses because well, it works. Essentially what do people want? Most people just want to live, be happy have children and someone to care about. Others want to make a difference and do something and achieve something. Besides that I think most people want someone they can be themselves around. The question is what does one want at the end of the day? Can it be achieved by marriage, do i need it for my marriage? Is it really someone who is so intelligent/philosophical? Can i fulfil this ?void? with peers through intellectual conversations or is this not enough.

I guess you have made it clear you want someone who is philosophical and your exposure to women has shown otherwise, shame. In regards to relationships i think it?s normal for people to want to know a person mentally before they even think about committed physical, otherwise i guess their intentions may be for other reasons. You said majority wouldn?t accept if you said you wanted just a mental dating. I disagree i think it?s the way you approach things. I think if you make your intention clear that you don?t intend on being physical because you want to see if you?re mentally compatible i don?t think people will have a problem with that. Especially if you explain why, it helps people understand.

What was your thoughts on MMA? Jacks link?  

Peace Sarah


I have never said that all i want is philosophical women. And by women that are interested in philosophy, i didn't mean that she has to have favorite Philosophers or have to be interested in the academical type of philosophy. Philosophy did not start in greece and is not limited to greece philosophers.

By philosophy i meant a woman that see the natural things of life. A woman that is close to earth, likes knowledge and understand what things in life which realy matter. A woman that has wisdom. And that wants to live a life of purpose, a woman that want to live for the akhiraat (afterlife). It is not enough to say that she believes in the afterlife if none of her deeds or actions shows it. I am not looking for an older women. I am 23 years old by the way, soon 24. Even dough i am young, sometimes i feel my soul (self) don't match with my age. Most other guys seem to care only about material things, like cars, sports, computer games and things which don't matter much, and which i think has little or no importance in our life. There fortunately exists lots of other more interesting and adventurous activities and passions for people that don't care about sports.

You are right. People deserve to have a chance that requires time and patience even the right environment, resources and support. But what about those who have time, patience, the right environment, resources and support. There are lots that have all of this, but still they live in apathy. I agree with your view, at the same time i think it's to up us. If we don't want to grow or develop no patience, environment, resources and support will be of any help. This reminds me of a proverb which says the following:
"Teachers can open the door. But you must enter by yourself".

I know that most people just wanna live, be happy, have children and have someone to care about. And i respect those choices. I also want to  be happy and have someone to care about. But i believe it should not be our greatest goal. Therefore i am looking for a girl that wants to make a difference and wants to achieve things. I think it is good that people want to go the university, and get a job. I am actually going to the university myself. But if the biggest goal of a woman in life is to finish the university just to get a where she works from 9-5, so that she can have money that she only wants to use on herself, then she is not my type of girl. I am more into girls that understand the deeper meaning of life. Girls that want to take an education to contribute in a field. For example a woman that takes a bachelor degree in economy to help women in poor countries with their business by for instance working in that country a couple of months. Not just to work as an economist from 9-5, in the same office, all the time, all her life. That's boring.  I am impressed by women that are adventurous and want to achieve. I think it is so much more giving than being one-dimensional.  I off course respect the way most people want to live, and i think everyone has the right to live how they want to live. Maybe thats why it can be hard 2 find someone compatible in my country. I believe there is more to life than just the material things and things which only fulfill our own desires, and i believe that our biggest goal in life should be to live a life for the akhiiraat. Worldly desires in moderation are not bad, however, altruism is more important. And as we know this life is a test:

Quran 8:28
And know that your money and your children are a test, and that God has the greatest reward.

I disagree with you that most people will accept the true mental dating, at least not in the long term. If for example a guy and girl is dating, don't you think that sooner or later they want to take the relationship to the next stage. Sooner or later they want to kiss. Do you really think that most people have the knowledge or understanding to accept not kissing or having physical contact before marriage? Imagine that a guy and a woman have dated a couple of weeks, then one day the girl wants to kiss the guy. If he says no, she will probably think that he is no better than buddhist monks.haha. If a girl don't have the same belief system as me (Deen: Islam based on Quran alone), i doubt that she will understand why you don't want to have physical dating. Because she lives in a different reality. Therefore the mental dating way, will most likely not make sense to her and be seen as weird or crazy. But maybe i am wrong. Sarah, maybe you have met somebody that don't believe in the Quran alone that accepts mental dating? Have you?

I am not being pessimistic, i just want to see this issue from a realistic point of view. I am an optimist. however, all my life experience tells me that no girl would accept mental dating, unless she follow the same belief system as me (Islam based on Quran alone). And i don't even know if all members in free-minds would accept this. Because being a member of free-minds does not necessarily makes you a free or independent thinker. Free minds is just the beginning of the journey of rationality, it is not the end. Most people are conditioned (brainwashed) by hollywood and popular culture without being aware of it. They follow man-made love, and accept relationships (Where kissing and other physical dating happens) as something completely natural. However, the truth is that it is not natural at all, and it is not based on the Quranic system. Physical dating is totally based on man-made systems like popular culture and hollywood. And if anyobody thinks i am wrong, i will change my belief if they can show proof from the Quran. Only the Quran, nothing else. If the Quran tells me that physical dating is acceptable, i will without a doubt accept it. I refuse to be a victim of selfish desires or popular culture. Popular culture is not based on truth. Popular culture is mostly based on fiction and fantasy. It is not based on reality.

I don't have any thoughts about mma yet. because i don't want to want to make assumptions of something which i have little or no knowledge of. Can you explain mma for me and your views about? Am interested in learning more about it.

[David_K]

Peace san

I'm glad you liked the thread. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I think you asked some interesting questions which i think we can all learn from:  

When i have found her self, her soul, am i ready to give up entirely on her physique?
Am i, my self, worth her self?
What if she, her self, her soul, turned out to be out of my soul's reach?

By the way, i liked the word physicless (which you used to describe true beauty in your post). Physicless beauty sounds nice. girls, don't be pretty, be physicless. haha. cool.

[san]

Peace san

I'm glad you liked the thread. Thanks for sharing your opinions. I think you asked some interesting questions which i think we can all learn from:  

Thanks God if it's useful... I was inspired by your post btw so i blame it on you  

By the way, i liked the word physicless (which you used to describe true beauty in your post). Physicless beauty sounds nice. girls, don't be pretty, be physicless. haha. cool.

Instead of cool, it's actually creepy...  like dating with an eerie ghostly beauty... no physique -- only spirit ...  



:: What a beautiful country Norway is, David!  I want to visit there and stay there and live there! I'm so jealous to anyone owning a camera who lives there.

[SarahY]

Peace David

Sure, i wasn?t being totally serious with the academic philosopher theory (though might be plausible). Off course, a woman who?s interested in philosophy doesn?t need to be an academic in the same field.  Not all people want to party and lots of people want the world to be a better place, not everyone is driven by selfishness and not everyone is willing to be an activist. Some people take baby steps others go forth making big steps.

You?re a male and still young i don?t think you should be deeply concerned. Good to keep your eyes open though. I think most of us might wonder ?i?m so and so years but i don?t feel it? (mentally) it?s a perception of ourselves from those around us..

Some might say i have all the tools and environment etc yet i?m not the greatest i can be and i know that. I should push myself but i?m lazy does it mean i?m stupid? Maybe but sometimes some people just need a push or a motivator, especially if they have had negative dispositions. Not everyone is proactive, would be nice if they were but that?s reality. People have issues in life... Sure i agree "Teachers can open the door. But you must enter by yourself".

Interesting thought. You want a girl that wants to make a difference, what if she wants to make a difference in something you?re not interested in? What if her goal direction of making a difference is totally divergent from yours? Say you have goal/s and she does too? I think everyone has goals in life some people would accommodate and adopt their partner?s goals maybe others won?t.

Not everyone is an entrepreneur, it requires risks. As i said before some people take baby steps also people want security. Working 9-5 could be very boring but they could be fulfilling a goal by saving the money and working towards something.. you don?t know.

There is more to life than material things however we need these material things to move along in life, they can help us.

You?re idea of ?mental dating? is more like friendship. Outline the difference other than the intention of letting the person know ?i?m interested in you?? Why not befriend people and ?study? their minds if they suit you then pursue them in more official ways. Besides after you know someone how ?long? do you need till you take the next step? How long is a mental relationship supposed to be? Or how do you view the length to be?

I think people don?t mind getting to know other people. It really depends on a person?s background for example if i told a Muslim guy ?i wanna get to know you but don?t wanna get into anything physical? if he was interested in me, he wouldn?t have a problem with that. I?ve done that before with sunni?s. i haven?t really reached out beyond the ?muslim? field as i personally want someone who is interested in Quran. I tried though it didn?t work.

Most people want physical relationships because well we?re human we have shahwat we have desires people are curious. It?s not necessarily about being brain washed and conditioned. Some people believe in ?chemistry? and the flow of things though is it really chemistry or is it lust? Seriously popular culture is over rated and for people to just believe it blindly is just stupid. Life isn?t a fairy tale story and most sane people know that.

Western society does promote relationships physical aspects tend not to be an issue. Though is there anything based on the Quran that says you can?t have a partner except by jiwaz/marriage? Is there anything that says there is no kissing allowed? We are also following our preconceived ideas.

You know getting a partner/wife/husband, a person one is contented with is not easy. Every single person on this earth complains about it. Well most do in all sorts of socio-cultural backgrounds regardless of religion. I think it?s partly to do with high expectations and mixing up fantasy wishes with reality. Though it?s not simple it?s a lifelong progress people don?t wanna make the wrong choice. So i understand your frustrations i just think it?s hard to paint a picture sometimes. 

In regards to MMA i?m still looking into it, i?ll explain my views later inshallah

Salam for now

[Wakas]

peace David,

I understand and relate to the gist of what you're saying. The only thing I would add is: it is important to appreciate and distinguish between specific beliefs and mindset.

For example, I was a Traditional Sunni Muslim, like many here, and whilst I held specific beliefs related to that, my mindset was different in that I was more open, rational, reflective, actively seeking knowledge/truth/verification, trying to improve/grow etc. So, it is possible you will meet a girl and her current views you disagree with but her mindset/thinking may be like yours. In other words, sometimes the direction one is heading in is more important than where they specifically are at this moment in time.

I'm sure you are already aware of this, but thought I'd mention it.


Also, if what you seek is rare, then I am sure when you find it, you will appreciate it that much more.

[nimnimak_11]

Selam

I have a question. If a man/woman married a christian who believed in the trinity, but later on that person became muslim but partner still christian, what then?

Peace

I don't really think that the christian belief of the trinity=shirk or kofr or idolworship.
If the Christrian we're talking about has good characteristics (compassion, noblity, patience, loyalty and so on) then they are submitting to God.
Now it might be that some of their beliefs are not so right (trinity). If this dosn't effect their character (like she'l kinda force you to pray to jesus or get angry at you for saying allah, then obviously the more influence on her character, the less of a submitter to God she is and most likely a believer's marriage to such a person will fail as a punishment.

A belief does not necessarily make the person kafir, idolworshiper and so on. Think of Athiests who are morally sound and great people. Could we call them kafirs?

It's just one belief which can influence character. Ultimately character is what makes someone a believer or kafir or idolworshipper and so on.

SO if a believer is getting along, then most likely they have married a believer.

[SarahY]

David, Salam

Ok a thought came to me the term jiwaz marriage etc. How is it done today in terms of traditionalists?

Basically guy visit girl.. it?s known that they?re seeing each other (in presence of mahram; dad, bro, uncle, mum some relo). Work out dowry, work out wedding stuff, get a sheikh for ceremony, have guardians/people witness, sign papers you?re done, your married without consummating it. That?s it you?re married.

Most people here get the ?katba katab? done (signing papers with witnesses, literally translated as ?the writing of the book?). They get it done so they can go out alone and it?ll all be ?halal? before having the actual wedding, wedding reception/party or consummation of marriage. basically just alone time though considered "islamically married"

Why i mentioned this? All they did is have witnesses to make it halal. What?s the ceremony? Reciting a few verses asking the girl if she accepts the guy 3 times. I think they ask the guy once or was it 3 I forgot (tradition). But anyway if one is seeking a relationship and is open about it not in secret how is it much different to traditionalists? If it?s open they have witnesses? They just have a different name and no sheikh giving a big talk.

So what is jwz?

Jiim-Waw-Zay = To pass in or pass along a place, leave it (a place) behind, pass through a place, traverse or cross, pass beyond a place, exceed or transgress the proper bound/limit/measure, excessive/extravagant/immoderate, allowable (pass as right or sound or valid or lawful), effect a judgement or opinion, give, clear away, relax or remit, overlook.
jawaza vb. (3) perf. act. 2:249, 7:138, 10:90, 18:62
tajawaza vb. (6) impf. act. 46:16

Interesting to note jwz doesn?t necessarily link with marriage :/ ok i dunno why people use that term...  Nikkah is used for marriage. What?s the root for زْوَاجِهِمْ (23:6) i think i might have it wrong.

BTW don?t ?fiance?s? have a right? I think they have links to MMA. I still need to research on MMA, initially I thought a husband/wife could be mma but then why would you need to marry a mma if you?re married to them 4:3? Maybe? Also mma seems to indicate dependence on someone 4:25.

23:6 indicates mma can?t be a spouse ?ow? indicates a differentiation between the two also it indicates physical rights. I?m still searching on mma, just wanted to share the thought on marriage also for not answering you before, sorry totally by passed it

In regards to:

Quran 24:33   
And let those who are not able to marry continue to be chaste until God enriches them of His Bounty. And if those who are maintained by your oaths seek to consummate the marriage, then document it with them if you find that they are ready, and give them from the wealth of God which He has bestowed upon you. And do not force your daughters into marriage when they have desired independence, in order that you may make a gain in the goods of this worldly life. But if anyone has compelled them, then for their compulsion, God is Forgiving, Merciful.

I have question. The verse above also say "those who are maintained by your oaths", does maintained by your oaths mean engagement? How do you intepret it?

وَلْيَسْتَعْفِفِ الَّذِينَ لَا يَجِدُونَ نِكَاحًا حَتَّى يُغْنِيَهُمْ اللَّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِ وَالَّذِينَ يَبْتَغُونَ الْكِتَابَ مِمَّا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ فَكَاتِبُوهُمْ إِنْ عَلِمْتُمْ فِيهِمْ خَيْرًا وَآتُوهُم مِّن مَّالِ اللَّهِ الَّذِي آتَاكُمْ وَلَا تُكْرِهُوا فَتَيَاتِكُمْ عَلَى الْبِغَاء إِنْ أَرَدْنَ تَحَصُّنًا لِّتَبْتَغُوا عَرَضَ الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَمَن يُكْرِههُّنَّ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ مِن بَعْدِ إِكْرَاهِهِنَّ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ (24:33

My thoughts:

MMA (mima malakat aymanakom) is translated as those maintained by your oaths. I think an engagement (fiance) could fit in that criteria. I?m not certain it could also be partner.

I think provided it?s not a secret relationship and the person fits the requirements (of who you can marry) then it could be fiance or partner. After all what?s the difference? One has a ring and is planning for marriage, the other prob dreams about it lol though seriously i?m not certain still looking into mma

Salam