Belief in AlQuran

[SarahY]

Finally back to this thread (sorry for the delay)

Imfromjakarata:

6:76-79 doesn?t exactly mention what makes a muslim.. it?s Ibrahims story

Agreed. Does good work, believes in God = muslim (41:33)

2:8 doesn?t define mumin. Jews /Christians (generally speaking) believe in God and last day but I wouldn?t classify them as mumineen. I think the mutaqeen are the mumineen (2:2)
And they believe in the gayb/unseen, establish salat and spend from their possessions (2:3)

(ya ayuha) allathina aminou phrase.. i find it interesting how it?s used in 2:62
inna ?allathina aminou? those who believe, and Jews, Christians and sabians ?mun amina billah? who believe in God.

Like it uses iman to differentiate the muslims or mumins and then the Jews et al. 5:69 uses same concept. It makes me think why differentiate..

In regards to 4:170. The message has come to us and it is better for us to believe in it (the Quran). When I initially was reading the verse it kind of felt it implicated there will be some who reject the message (duh obviously) but what I mean is, it feels weird saying this but I almost  felt it was saying it?s not a necessity to follow. So I read over it and understood it differently more like we have no escape from God.

I totally agree with you in terms of who go to Heaven and who go to Hell only Allah has knowledge about it. However Allah asked us to judge using the Books, it applies for people who receive Taurat, Injil, (please read QS 5:44-45 and QS 5:47) as well as al-Qur'an. All the decision using judgment from the Book must be fair to all parties involve in dispute.

For me the Quran is complete and I don?t need to judge by them (previous books) for example the verse says ?wakatabna ?alayhim? It?s directed to them, what God wrote for them. Not for us to use their scripture to judge by. Also I believe 5:48 verifies the truth in their scriptures is what is in accordance with Quran.

In regards to intentions, I think they matter and actions also. I see them working simultaneously. You don?t rob a bank to give to the poor, that?s like cheating. The verse you mentioned 2:225 implicates intention. However our deeds are very important and will be ours 99:7-8

Wakas:

You?re right, i should study more than enquire through others thoughts/opinions. I guess laziness and procrastination mixes up and creates frustration. So venting thoughts on the forum can help, kinda like a motivator.

Preconceived notions can be difficult to challenge/recognise or to even look at it objectively.

I?m yet to finish the book, i decided to skip a few 100 pages lol and read the kufr section (part of it actually, VII) interesting. I had already had the thought that kufr would be that one reject truth after one has been revealed or shown it based on surah 98. Yet it?s more than that, the idea of ?ungratefulness? never really come to my mind. Though when I read that bit I instantly thought of Sulayman in regards to the throne in which it?s said ?aashkuru am akfuru? (27:40). I can see that shukr is something I personally should focus on.

BTW others should read the book (even though I haven?t finished, yes I recommend it!) it?s good as it makes you look at concepts in light you probably haven?t looked at (well for me at least). I think it helps abolish preconceived notions by studying Quran through Quran and the understanding of words by their root. It definitely helps and it?s not just a bunch of words put together, it?s explained thoroughly. So thumbs up for that!

Mazhar

They way I have understood the concepts of muslim and mumin is that a mumin will strive according to Quran, whereas a muslim will do good and believe in God.  So in regards to 57:21

Mumins also believe in Muhammad as Rasool and thus their actions will be rewarded with jannah.

Maybe i?m missing something..  but that?s my thought. 

Abdalquran

You said mumins are the ones who answer to ?alladhina aamanoo? so in regards to verses like 2:62 and 5:69:
inna ?allathina aminou? those who believe, and Jews, Christians and Sabians ?mun amina billah? who believe in God.

The verses use the ?iman? term twice to differentiate between the two, almost like the iman is different.. but not exactly. It?s still calling out to both who have iman. So you reckon only the calling to alladhina aamanou is to mumins, and any other iman call wouldn?t be mumins? Basically what significance do you think it is with the differentiation? If you think there is any?

Keeping your theory allathina aminou in mind, what type of ?believers? are not lost in regards to surah103? All people of iman? Including Christians /Jews?

My thoughts are the ones with iman are the ones who believe in God and Quran unless stated otherwise. So I would think it?s the mumin?s who aminou who are the saved ones. However the Jews, Christians, Sabians will get their ajr/reward.

In regards to muqeen I?m not sure, I would assume one who is a mumin and truly is striving (through their true conviction of their heart) to follow the guide that they have yaqeen, otherwise why gamble? But I dunno I would have to look up the terms possibly it has links with mumin or mutaqeen.

Progressive1993
Thanks for sharing your thought. I had in mind the preconceived notion of kufr as simply ?disbelief? though clearly it?s more than that.

[san]

All very good questions...

1. Actually, "muslim" simply means one who is peaceful, or one who submits. The concept of God doesn't even occur in this word's usage, and the idea of it specifically referring to the act of submitting to God depends on the context.

2. I wouldn't think so. The Qur'aan says that the "ahlu al kitaab" (people of the book), which many determine to be the Jews and Nazarenes, can also be viewed as believers. Therefore, if Jew lives according to the Torah, which is also a revelation from God, he shouldn't be found guilty, nor should a Nazarene who lives according to the Torah and Evangel.

3. Jannah simply refers to "paradise", and it's not limited to those who call themselves "Muslims".

4. No. The idea of "kufr" is not based on 'converting to Islaam', it's about accepting God's signs and avoiding idolatry. Therefore, in that sense, 'converting' is not a requirement of anyone, as long as you believe in God, believe in His angels (or controlling forces), believe in His messengers and scriptures, and believe in the judgement.

5. That's a good question, and I think that depends on how a person perceives God. For example, Trinitarians believe in God, but they are rebuked in the Qur'aan. People who believe that Jesus was 'God Incarnate' believe in God too, but they're also rebuked in the scripture. I think it's important to believe in the complete oneness of God, assigning no partners to Him whatsoever. As long as you do this, I think you'll be okay...

God knows best.

Just a correction intended, Ahmad Bilal,

This is mathematically unsound: Jannah ...  it's not limited to those who call themselves "Muslims". CMIIW, but that statement implies:

[the people of Jannah]  is a superset of  [Those who call themselves "Muslims"]
or
[Those who call themselves "Muslims"]  is a subset of  [the people of Jannah]

which is not true, according to Alqur'aan.

Had you written  Jannah simply refers to "paradise", and the prospect of entering it is not limited to those who call themselves "Muslims" , there would be no need for this correction.

Reading 4:145, we may conclude that 'Those who call themselves "Muslims"' while they are actually Almunafiquwn may enter the deepest/worst hell. Unless they return as per 4:146. This clarification is needed so no one who reads that statement should feel safe just because they think/call themselves as "Muslims".

70:27  (AlmuSalliyn:) And those who are fearful of the punishment of their Lord.
70:28  Indeed, the punishment of their Lord is not safe


Peace

[Wakas]

peace,

Wakas:

You?re right, i should study more than enquire through others thoughts/opinions. I guess laziness and procrastination mixes up and creates frustration. So venting thoughts on the forum can help, kinda like a motivator.

Enquiry is a good thing, but a balance must be struck with one's own study, that's all I was implying.

Preconceived notions can be difficult to challenge/recognise or to even look at it objectively.

True. Difficult, but not impossible. Like most things, one can train oneself to be better at it. My favourite online course on critical thinking:

http://web.archive.org/web/20040415023848/http:/www.santarosa.edu/~dpeterso/permanenthtml/lessonFRAME.html
(click through each lesson)

And either one of these I regularly refer to:
http://www.logicalfallacies.info/
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

[Mazhar]

Mazhar

They way I have understood the concepts of muslim and mumin is that a mumin will strive according to Quran, whereas a muslim will do good and believe in God.  So in regards to 57:21

Mumins also believe in Muhammad as Rasool and thus their actions will be rewarded with jannah.

Maybe i?m missing something..  but that?s my thought.

A plain and matter of common sense is that one believes in a thing/concept and then acts on it. In believing there is no physical activity involved. Once someone accepts/believes and declares so he becomes believer/Momin. How would he prove that what he says is true. Only by action, and that is called Islam, Deen, physical demonstration and prove of ones belief.

A person can be a muslim, follower of Islam but may not be a momin. And similarly a person who declares he believes may not be a momin yet physically acts as a muslim for deception. And a person who is momin but did not act as muslim his believing is of no avail. Both will land in hell. Exception is only for the one who wholeheartedly became a Momin at any given point in time and immediately thereafter did not find time and died, that is why it is also stated without qualifying or linking it with righteous deeds that Paradise is prepared for those who believed in Allah and all His Messengers.

[abdalquran]

You said mumins are the ones who answer to ?alladhina aamanoo? so in regards to verses like 2:62 and 5:69:
inna ?allathina aminou? those who believe, and Jews, Christians and Sabians ?mun amina billah? who believe in God.

The verses use the ?iman? term twice to differentiate between the two, almost like the iman is different.. but not exactly. It?s still calling out to both who have iman. So you reckon only the calling to alladhina aamanou is to mumins, and any other iman call wouldn?t be mumins? Basically what significance do you think it is with the differentiation? If you think there is any?

Well, as we discussed before, there are grades of iman. The first set of people (alladhina aamanou) are those who answer the calls given in Quran. Not necessarily all of them, of course. However, the bare minimum is the 'man amana billah' bit.

Keeping your theory allathina aminou in mind, what type of ?believers? are not lost in regards to surah103? All people of iman? Including Christians /Jews?

I think 'tawasau bil haqq and bis sabr' is another explanation of amal as-salih so yeah, it's for any people who follow this.

My thoughts are the ones with iman are the ones who believe in God and Quran unless stated otherwise. So I would think it?s the mumin?s who aminou who are the saved ones. However the Jews, Christians, Sabians will get their ajr/reward.

I dunno, the 'no fear nor grief' bit isn't limited to earth (or it'd say 'fid dunya'). I think its a matter of lower garden or higher garden. I don't think that these refer to jews, christians, sabians anyway. I think we need to research the meanings and find ones fitting to the Quranic message which doesnt acknowledge religious groupings.

In regards to muqeen I?m not sure, I would assume one who is a mumin and truly is striving (through their true conviction of their heart) to follow the guide that they have yaqeen, otherwise why gamble? But I dunno I would have to look up the terms possibly it has links with mumin or mutaqeen.

At the moment, I think muqeen is the highest level of iman. 49/14-15 seems to agree with that. But yes, we need to research further.

Thanks for a thought provoking discussion.

[san]

Peace,

At the moment, I think muqeen is the highest level of iman. 49/14-15 seems to agree with that. But yes, we need to research further.

Thanks for a thought provoking discussion.

Muqeen? You mean muttaqeen (Almuttaqiyn)? I don't know about the highest level of Imaan, but yea i agree it surely ranks among the highest. Whether it's Almuttaqiyn or AlmuHsiniyn (or else) which ranks the highest, you'll find their descriptions in AQ intersect with each other. (btw 49:14-15 ends with AlSaAdiquwn and i can't find muttaqiyn in them--sure you quoted the right verse number?)

Maybe it will be something like (all terms in plural):

muslimiyn --> mu'miniyn --> muSliHiyn (those who does `aml SaliHat) --> ...  ... ... --> muHsiniyn/muttaqiyn/...?

maybe these will fall in between or as part of the above (e.g., part of muSliHiyn or muHsiniyn or muttaqiyn), and more importantly, they don't necessarily fall in a linear hiearchy:

muSalliyn: those who perform SalaAt
mujahidiyn: those who strive in the way of Allah
Sabiriyn : those who persevere/are patient (in hardship)
Hasi`iyn : (Khashi`iyn) those who are khushu` (certain that they will meet Allah)
sakiriyn : those who are thankful to Allah
Saadiqiyn : those who are truthful
qaanitiyn : those who are obedient?
munfiqiyn : those who spend in the way of Allah
mustaGfiriyn : those who ask for Allah's forgiveness
tawwabiyn : those who return to Allah
mutaTahhiriyn : those who clean/purify themselves
muqsiTiyn : those who maintain justice
mutawakkiliyn : those who put all trust and rely on Allah
...

on the opposite there are munaafiqiyn, kaafiriyn, faasiqiyn ...


Some of those are roles or characters with specific action or characteristic while others are hybrid or combination or composite of other roles/characters.

It'd be nice if we have a complete 'map' of those roles/characters for study or practical purpose.


Peace

(ed: grammar)

[Jack]

2:8 doesn?t define mumin. Jews /Christians (generally speaking) believe in God and last day but I wouldn?t classify them as mumineen. I think the mutaqeen are the mumineen (2:2)
And they believe in the gayb/unseen, establish salat and spend from their possessions (2:3)

If you look at 3:113-115, ahul al kitab can be muttaqeen. I don't hold to the view that people of the book = jew, christians, etc. People of the book must be studied on its own. Like every other group mentioned in the Reading, there are good and bad among them.

If Iman is a literal thing, how do you explain 34:41.

Peace,

You mean muttaqeen (Almuttaqiyn)? I don't know about the highest level of Imaan, but yea i agree it surely ranks among the highest. Whether it's Almuttaqiyn or AlmuHsiniyn (or else) which ranks the highest, you'll find their descriptions in AQ intersect with each other. (btw 49:14-15 ends with AlSaAdiquwn and i can't find muttaqiyn in them--sure you quoted the right verse number?)

Muttaqeen, almuhsynin etc are not specific groups, they are states, aspects of a mumin. See we start out as muslims and slowly we work our way up to the status of a mumin... If we read carefuly 2:2-9+ we'll see that muttaqeen are a) being contrasted with kafireen and b) being used synonymously for a mumin

2:2 for example tells us that al kitab is a guidance for al-muttaqeen. 3:17 also an interesting verse. See also 9:38-44. Again muttaqeen and mumineen are being used interchangably.

[san]

Peace, Jack 

Muttaqeen, almuhsynin etc are not specific groups, they are states, aspects of a mumin.

Hence i said they intersect with each other, the group/set is just a way to see it in particular. When GOD calls "Yaa ayyuha Alladiyna Aamanuw", whoever think of himself as mu'min will think they're called. Consider that as an imaginary or mathematical group/set. Not a group of people under the banner of "mu'miniyn". That indeed doesn't make sense.

Why the group/set view?

Because It ease you to break down such a complex concept as 'muttaqeen', 'almuHsiniyn' etc. If we wanted to reach that state, then we might as well study those "states" or "aspects" which may help us to reach it.

See we start out as muslims and slowly we work our way up to the status of a mumin... If we read carefuly 2:2-9+ we'll see that muttaqeen are a) being contrasted with kafireen and b) being used synonymously for a mumin

2:2 for example tells us that al kitab is a guidance for al-muttaqeen.

Let's continue that a little further:

2:3 Alladiyna yu[w]'minuwna bi'lGaybi wa yuqiymuwna 'lSalaAta wa mimmaA razaqnaA hum yunfiquwn
Who believe: in the unseen, establish AlSalaAt, and of what We have provided for them they spend out

2:4 w Alladiyna yu[w]'minuwna bimaA Unzila Ilayka wa maA Unzila min qablika wa bi'lAaHirati hum yuwqinuwn
And who believe: in what has been revealed to you and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain.

That is how we understand Almuttaqiyn from these early verses.

Almuttaqiyn do: believe: in the unseen and establish AlSalaAt and spend out
Almuttaqiyn, in addition to our previous understanding of Almuttaqiyn, do: believe: in what has been revealed to them and what was revealed before them and certain: of the Hereafter

But what is AlGaiyb? What is AlSalaAt? How and to whom we spend? What is AlAaHirat? Through the Quran, more information on Almuttaqiyn and also on those terms/words/concepts not made clear in the earlier verses are then revealed gradually. This is an example. The next ones also from what you referred:

3:17 also an interesting verse. See also 9:38-44. Again muttaqeen and mumineen are being used interchangably.

3:17 is another excellent example on how various other characters/roles/states/aspects are used to describe another character/state. The context of the verse must be studied to understand what character/state is being described. (hint: 3:15). Either you see it that way (the latter explaining the former) or another (the former explaining the latter), your understanding of all of those characters/states would increase collectively (mentioned the concepts of ittaquw, `ibad, jannah, Imaan, IstiGfar, Sabr, Sadiq, qanit, infaq).

9:44 Those who believe: in Allah and the Last Day would not ask permission of you to be excused from striving with their wealth and their lives. And Allah is Knowing of those who fear Him (Almuttaqiyn).

To understand why Almuttaqiyn is used to end this verse, let's see 2:177, which includes believe: in Allah and the Last Day. Those were informed to us to be parts of what Almuttaqiyn do. So, by including the word Almuttaqiyn in the verse 9:44, don't you think Allah reminded us of a concept more complete than that described in 9:44?



Now finally, re: "synonymously", let me ask you something, Jack:

1) If we took muttaqiyn and mu'minuwn as synonym, how can we learn something new from each?

2) Why there are two distinct words used if they are indeed synonym?



Peace

[bkanwar2]

I would contend and humbly submit that there is hardly ANY HUMANBEING on this planet earth that does not believe in Qur'an.  It is only the current perverted definition/concept of Qur'an; they do not agree with or believe in.

Peace

Badar

[nsws1988]

I would contend and humbly submit that there is hardly ANY HUMANBEING on this planet earth that does not believe in Qur'an.  It is only the current perverted definition of Qur'an; they do not agree with or believe in.

Peace

Badar

And many do not agree that it is a divine book from God but rather made up by the prophet Mohammed PBUH