Belief in AlQuran

[san]

Thank yoU, maybe keeping it to all-Arabic may be a good idea after all.

[san]

   
49:14
Say     the A`raab   "We believe."   
qālati  l-aʿrābu       āmannā         

Say,  "Not   you believe";  but       say,  "We submitted,"   and has not   entered    the Imaan   in   your hearts 
qul    lam   tu'minū        walākin   qūlū    aslamnā          wa lammā      yadkhuli   l-īmānu      fī   qulūbikum   

and if   you obey   Allah    and His Messenger,   not   He deprive you   of    your deeds   anything.
wa in    tuṭīʿū     l-laha     wa rasūlahu          lā     yalit'kum       min   aʿmālikum     shay'an   

Indeed   Allah    Gafuwr     rahiym   
inna     l-laha   ghafūrun   raḥīmun           

49:15
Only     the believers   those who   believe   with Allah   and His Messenger,   
innamā   l-mu'minūna     alladhīna    āmanū      bil-lahi     wa rasūlihi             

then  (do) not   doubt   and   strive   with their wealth   and their lives   in (the) way (of) Allah.   
thumma    lam   yartābū   wa   jāhadū    bi-amwālihim        wa anfusihim       fī      sabīli     l-lahi     

Those    they (are) the truthful."   
ulāika   humu       l-ṣādiqūna     



The first word of verse (49:15) is divided into 2 morphological segments. An accusative particle and preventive particle. The accusative particle belongs to a special group of words known as inna and her sisters (ان واخواتها). The preventive particle mā stops inna from taking its normal role in the sentence. Together the segments are known as kāfa wa makfūfa (كافة ومكفوفة). (http://quran.uk.net/WordMorphology.aspx?location=%2849:15:1%29)

[Jack]

Peace Sarah,

What i mean is they believe based on what they know ?knowledge? and also what they?re told ?without? understanding. So the idea of them following jinn is well and truly possible even though they dunno what ?jinn? is, get it?

Yes I had this thought in the back of my mind concerning the jinn. But the verse states they were MUMIN in the jinn. Who goes around believing in jinn? Doesn't matter what you view them as: be it physical beings, fantasies, hidden, etc. Who claims (again malayka say most of humanity) to believe in any of that?

Sure we need and want evidence but not all people do. Think about how many people are blind believers as i said, belief doesn?t need logic. I can believe Paris Hilton is the best thing on earth, i don?t need logic for that. Obviously i don't believe that but just saying sorry lame example but do you get my drift?  

Who cares what most people do? Just because the belief of most people is illogical, doesn't mean ours should be. It doesn't prove anything. It just shows how sheepish humans are. I would rather concern myself with the quranic definition of iman. Have a look at 9:44-45 for another example of iman vs. no iman.

many people intentionally commit evil, for whatever gain it is they think they may gain. None of us a free from sin/evil.. could all of one persons sins be ?accidental?? it?d like to meet such a person, besides all sins are forgiven except the shirk ones. You can believe its teachings and aim to follow it and still falter but the point is to amend. Those who intentionally sin and continue to intentionally sin and continue to repeat the sin and then act like they don?t care because God forgives, well that?s another story.  

Of course not all 'sins' are accidental. "God forgives all sins except shrik ones" I assume you speak of 4:48 or 39:53? 4:48 says shrik is a big ithm. 39:53 says god protects all zunoob period. . You are not getting my point. Intentions matter. You can say you believe in the quran and INTENTIONALLY do bad things. Would that mean you actually believe in its teachings? If I say I believe in the quran and become a serial killer, what does my belief in this book prove? Nothing. Actions and intent. A person's actions aren't necessarily tied into believing/not believing a book. Belief, in itself, is meaningless without the right intentions/deeds which leads to belief in its teachings and THAT proves you actually believe in that book. True intentions (from the heart ) are ultimately shown through your works.

i dunno, intentions and actions work hand in hand. I can intend something really good like making someone happy but i could cross the line and commit sins by that process. What is good what is bad? Depends how you want to look at it.  

Precisely: they go hand in hand. Sure good/bad are subjective.

So people reject translators they even reject studies. God can deal with them, it?s not really my concern. Actions matter most definitely i don?t deny that, is one who strives the same as the one who sits? Off course not (4:95).

Salam

Why should people study it? Does the quran force people to study it? Even believe? (10:99, 2:256). Don't take 4:95 out of context, its addressed to mumineen. You can do better than that  

Surely you haven't studied all books that claim to be from the God? I must say some of the translations are some rather callous works, It completely distorts the message.

[SarahY]

Salam Jack

Yes I had this thought in the back of my mind concerning the jinn. But the verse states they were MUMIN in the jinn. Who goes around believe in jinn? Doesn't matter what you view them as: be it physical beings, fantasies, hidden, etc. Who claims (again malayka say most of humanity) to believe in any of that?

You know, you are confusing me with the whole jin/mumin thing. What is the context, is it dunya or akhira? Read from 34:37 and tell me what I am supposed to see. What are you trying to tell me... That there are jin mumineen? Ok i get that? People worshipped them? Yet your implication to me is how can people worship something they don?t know! So tell me what am i supposed to be seeing because i can?t see what you?re trying to tell me. 

Who cares what most people do? Just because the belief of most people is illogical, doesn't mean ours should be. It doesn't prove anything. It just shows how sheepish humans are. I would rather concern myself with the quranic definition of iman. Have a look at 9:44-45 for another example of iman vs. no iman.

Off course our logic should be logical. I was just trying to show you a perception about blind faith/belief. Proving it has no logic it can have no logic and people can be like that but forget it. As you say lets concern ourselves with Quranic iman vs no iman

Protects zunoob, period!  What?s that supposed to mean? znb to my understanding has links to saye?a??! I mean the principle at least it has links to sins

Thal-Nun-Ba = to track, make a tale, add apendix, follow closely, become spotted.
Commit offence, fault, sin, wrong, act of disobedience, transgression.

Dude i know intentions matter. Well maybe you?re a secret serial killer in a war or something killing all the bad guys who knows that might be good! Anyway enough fairytale stories, if you intentionally went against Quran and continued to do so even though you believed in it, then it could make you one of two things that i am aware of; a fasiq or kafir. I wonder if they have links... i?ll look into that later if you wanna get into that discussion i?m just doing a few too many things atm. *note to self, stop wondering!*

9:44-9:45 isn?t this context jihad? But sure the ones who truly believe will stay firm and not back down. 

So yeh.. actions matter i came across this verse, supports your theory of actions and iman:
34:37 (Asad) For, it is neither your riches nor your children that can bring you nearer to Us: only he who attains to faith and does what is right and just [comes near unto Us]; and it is [such as] these whom multiple recompense awaits for all that they have done; and it is they who shall dwell secure in the mansions [of paradise] ?

Why should people study it? For jannah? For the hereafter, for a better life in this dunya for awareness for goodness, for haqq.. why do you think? No, Quran doesn?t force people to study it but it?s available for people to study.

i know 4:95 is addressed to mumineen, you see i thought you guys were mumineen i?m trying to uplift your spirits into proactive action! I?m not a walking Quran, cut me some slack.

My focus is Quran i don?t want to study other/all books so let?s focus on belief on AlQuran as that is our concern

إِنَّا أَنزَلْنَا عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ لِلنَّاسِ بِالْحَقِّ فَمَنِ اهْتَدَى فَلِنَفْسِهِ وَمَن ضَلَّ فَإِنَّمَا يَضِلُّ عَلَيْهَا وَمَا أَنتَ عَلَيْهِم بِوَكِيلٍ (39:41)

PEACE!

[Jack]

Salam Sarah,

Salam Jack

You know, you are confusing me with the whole jin/mumin thing. What is the context, is it dunya or akhira? Read from 34:37 and tell me what I am supposed to see. What are you trying to tell me... That there are jin mumineen? Ok i get that? People worshipped them? Yet your implication to me is how can people worship something they don?t know! So tell me what am i supposed to be seeing because i can?t see what you?re trying to tell me.  

Point is, you don't have to profess something for it to be your iman. Therefore, iman is not about what you say. 'Saying' you believe in the quran, on the surface, is utterly meaningless.

Protects zunoob, period!  What?s that supposed to mean?

I think there's a joke in there somewhere...
i.e. the verse says all zunoob! It doesn't qualify it with shrik being the exception etc.

9:44-9:45 isn?t this context jihad? But sure the ones who truly believe will stay firm and not back down.  

Right, and if they back down they cease to believe in god/al akhira. Hence, it's their actions that made them NOT believe in god/al-akhira

So yeh.. actions matter i came across this verse, supports your theory of actions and iman:
34:37 (Asad) For, it is neither your riches nor your children that can bring you nearer to Us: only he who attains to faith and does what is right and just [comes near unto Us]; and it is [such as] these whom multiple recompense awaits for all that they have done; and it is they who shall dwell secure in the mansions [of paradise] ?

Thanks. See also 34:20-21, those who follow shaytan don't believe in alakhirah. Pay careful attention to min-almumineen in 34:20. Do you think Quranists^TM are exempt here?

Why should people study it? For jannah? For the hereafter, for a better life in this dunya for awareness for goodness, for haqq.. why do you think? No, Quran doesn?t force people to study it but it?s available for people to study.

Man, if you need a book for all that you are screwed to begin with.  I don't know how Ibrahim figured anything out without a quran to study...6:76-81.

أَقِمْ وَجْهَكَ لِلدِّينِ حَنِيفًا فِطْرَةَ اللَّهِ الَّتِي فَطَرَ النَّاسَ عَلَيْهَا لَا تَبْدِيلَ لِخَلْقِ اللَّهِ ذَلِكَ الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ وَلَكِنَّ أَكْثَرَ النَّاسِ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ 30:30

My focus is Quran i don?t want to study other/all books so let?s focus on belief on AlQuran as that is our concern

That's consistent. You won't study other books, but others SHOULD study this book to receive 'jannah'  Is al-haqq limited to the quran?

إِنَّا أَنزَلْنَا عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ لِلنَّاسِ بِالْحَقِّ فَمَنِ اهْتَدَى فَلِنَفْسِهِ وَمَن ضَلَّ فَإِنَّمَا يَضِلُّ عَلَيْهَا وَمَا أَنتَ عَلَيْهِم بِوَكِيلٍ (39:41)

39:41 is for whom the MESSAGE has reached, not a book called al quran. "You are not a keeper over them." - the messenger is not a wakeel over us/them.  Did he start handing out qurans, 'here you go! go study it!'   The messenger's job is also to clarify in the language of his qawm (14:4). Note: this doesn't preclude some distant, modern-english-translation.

[SarahY]

Salam jack

Yes belief isn?t just what you utter, people can lie and people can profess to things they don?t believe. Saying you believe in something then doing something contrary to that belief is a worry or a sign of weak faith or lack of knowledge/understanding. Lots of possibilities... but my concern isn?t professing or hiding belief. Though you know you just kind of proved my point, they don?t need to profess in the belief of ?jinn? to believe in jin

Right, and if they back down they cease to believe in god/al akhira. Hence, it's their actions that made them NOT believe in god/al-akhira

Continue to read the verses following. Their actions affirmed their beliefs not that their actions made them not believe in God/akhira.

Thanks. See also 34:20-21, those who follow shaytan don't believe in alakhirah. Pay careful attention to min-almumineen in 34:20. Do you think QuranistsTM are exempt here?

No one is exempt from anything. Quranist can claim to follow Quran and represent Quran however at the end of the day it doesn?t matter what you label yourself as you will be accountable for your own actions. None of us are free from error even the best of the best.

Well i?m not Ibrahim and in that case I guess i?m screwed. Why believe in Quran if you don?t need it, why follow it? Gotta better guide, do share?

So belief in God and going good is enough, that gets jannah apparently? right? By what logic? Who says that is the case? Was it the Quran?

Why should i put effort into doing good as how Quran states if it has no avail? If just believing in God and doing good is good enough? Your implication is: studying Quran isn?t worth your time because you can get the same reward simply be believing in God, doing good and contemplating about the universe.

So maybe you don?t need a guide but if you have one you?re better off, are you not? If you believe in it and you don?t follow it, what does it make you? Why not follow Quran? Why uphold Quran if you don?t need it?
 

Is al-haqq limited to the quran?

You tell me.

Alhaqq is in a lot of things. The ultimate haqq is Allah (22:62 ) and i believe this haqq is shared with us in AlQuran read 2:176.

if you don?t believe that Quran is haqq then i don?t know why people bother following it.

If we read the Quran and study it and reject it or don?t follow it, what does it make us? How then is belief in Quran necessary or unnecessary after that? wouldn't albayana be evident to them? (read chapter 98). Or maybe i can argue if God knew we didn?t need the Quran God wouldn?t have sent it.

To me belief in Quran is important. Probably i?m biased because of my background though others would say i'm a rebel.. i don?t know where life would have taken me otherwise. back to Ibrahim, i guess he followed the Quranic message without it, can many do that? I have no idea.

[progressive1993]

Peace Sarah,

So belief in God and doing good is enough, that gets jannah apparently? right? By what logic? Who says that is the case? Was it the Quran?

Belief in God, the last day/period (hereafter) and doing reform/setting things right in society (aml slh) is the minimum that you need to attain salvation.

2:62 ...any one who trusts with God and the Last day, and does reform/sets things right, they will have their reward with their Lord, with no fear over them, nor will they grieve.

If we read the Quran and study it and reject it or don?t follow it, what does it make us? How then is belief in Quran necessary or unnecessary after that?

That's where the mumin vs. muslim concept comes in. A muslim (one who is peaceful/surrenders) is anyone who fuliflls the requirements given in 2:62 for salvation. In one of my posts before I told you to take notice of the "and". The mumins (those who trust) are those who uphold The Reading/Quran. Traditional "Muslims" call themselves "Muslims", but what many/most fail to realize is that it is not a proper name and that anyone who believes in God, does good/reform and believes in the last day/hereafter is a muslim. Hence, no matter how you call yourself - if you fulfill the mentioned  criteria, you are a muslim.

41:33 Who is better in saying than one who invites to God, works reform, and says: "I am one of 'al muslimeen' (the peaceful/those who have surrendered)."

46:15 ..."My Lord, direct me to appreciate the blessings You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and to do/work righteousness/reform that pleases You. Let my progeny be righteous/reforming. I have repented to You; I am of 'al muslimeen'."

46:16 It is from these that We accept the best of their deeds, and We shall overlook their bad deeds. (They are) among the dwellers of the garden. This is the promise of truth that they had been promised.

28:53 If it is recited to them, they say, "We trust with it. It is the truth from our Lord. Indeed, before that we were."

Now, a mumin gets a better reward in the hereafter than a muslim, of course.

8:2 The mumins are those whom, when God is mentioned, their hearts tremble; when His signs are recited to them, it strengthens their acknowledgement; and they put their trust in their Lord.

8:3 They uphold the bond, and from Our provisions to them they spend (on others).

8:4 These are the true mumins; they will have ranks at their Lord, forgiveness, and a generous provision.

"This scripture is, no doubt in it, a beacon for the observant ("al-mutaqeen")
who have faith with the unseen,
uphold the bond,
and from our provisions to them, they give to charity.
And they have faith with what was revealed to you,
and in what was revealed before you,
and with regard to the Hereafter, they are absolutely certain.
These are guided by their Lord; these are the winners." (2:2-5)

So why would you want to uphold/believe in The Quran and become a mumin? There is a greater reward and one is among the observant/righteous (al mutaqeen).

back to Ibrahim, i guess he followed the Quranic message without it, can many do that? I have no idea.

Ibrahim was a prophet, so he recieved a book from God. Of course he was also guided by God.

16:120 Abraham was an examplary vanguard, devoted to God, a monotheist, and he was not of those who set up partners.

16:121 Because he was thankful for His blessings, He (God) chose him and guided him to a straight path.

16:123 Then We inspired to you (the messenger): "You shall follow the creed of Abraham, monotheism, and he was not of those who set up partners."

[SarahY]

Peace Sarah,
Quote from: Sarah
So belief in God and doing good is enough, that gets jannah apparently? right? By what logic? Who says that is the case? Was it the Quran?

Belief in God, the last day/period (hereafter) and doing reform/setting things right in society (aml slh) is the minimum that you need to attain salvation.

2:62 ...any one who trusts with God and the Last day, and does reform/sets things right, they will have their reward with their Lord, with no fear over them, nor will they grieve.

I was being sarcastic but sure, no fear or grief.

Ibrahim was a prophet, so he recieved a book from God. Of course he was also guided by God.

16:120 Abraham was an examplary vanguard, devoted to God, a monotheist, and he was not of those who set up partners.

16:121 Because he was thankful for His blessings, He (God) chose him and guided him to a straight path.

16:123 Then We inspired to you (the messenger): "You shall follow the creed of Abraham, monotheism, and he was not of those who set up partners."

Good point.

Yo Jack, read that? he got a book! Guess i ain?t so screwed after all.

Salam

[Jack]

Salam Sarah,

Salam jack

Though you know you just kind of proved my point, they don?t need to profess in the belief of ?jinn? to believe in jin

And you just made mine   'they don't need to profess belief in the quran to believe in the quran'. Took long enough  

Quranist can claim to follow Quran and represent Quran however at the end of the day it doesn?t matter what you label yourself as you will be accountable for your own actions. None of us are free from error even the best of the best.

Exactly, labels are meaningless, this includes what you say you believe. A label is something on the surface. The quran is much deeper than that.

Well i?m not Ibrahim and in that case I guess i?m screwed.

Nice try. He's an imam for an-nas. So, we should certainly be following in his footsteps (60:4). He looked at the heavens, and asked questions. That's how he figured out God. He used logic. He didn't read it in a book.

Yo Jack, read that? he got a book! Guess i ain?t so screwed after all.

Baseless assumption. Who said he didn't receive a book? All messengers receive books. He didn't get his views from his book. Unless of course he was using Idiot's Guide to Astronomy as his furqan.

Why believe in Quran if you don?t need it, why follow it? Gotta better guide, do share?

Faulty logic: just because someone doesn't use al quran as a guide, doesn't mean a) there a better one b) they are using another guide. You can get to places without a map. You don't NEED a map to get to jannah. For some/many it helps, but others can reach the destination without a map. The quran is a guide, plain and simple. When you believe in the quran, you believe in its guidance, which is again its message. Check out 34:34:  "We reject the message/R-S-L you are sent with."

So belief in God and going good is enough, that gets jannah apparently? right? By what logic? Who says that is the case? Was it the Quran?

Why should i put effort into doing good as how Quran states if it has no avail? If just believing in God and doing good is good enough? Your implication is: studying Quran isn?t worth your time because you can get the same reward simply be believing in God, doing good and contemplating about the universe.

I suggest reading progressive1993's post detailing  mumineen vs. muslimeen.

So maybe you don?t need a guide but if you have one you?re better off, are you not? If you believe in it and you don?t follow it, what does it make you? Why not follow Quran? Why uphold Quran if you don?t need it?

First of all, you don't NEED to do anything. See above.
 

Alhaqq is in a lot of things. The ultimate haqq is Allah (22:62 ) and i believe this haqq is shared with us in AlQuran read 2:176.

if you don?t believe that Quran is haqq then i don?t know why people bother following it.

Al quran contains al haqq, no one is denying that. Al quran is not al haqq itself, that would make it God itself. God's attributes are not limited to anything. He's 'everywhere'.

If we read the Quran and study it and reject it or don?t follow it, what does it make us?

If you reject its truthfulness (whatever that is), that would make us kafir. But, you don't HAVE to follow it (again 10:99). BTW, the God didn't forget to put the quran as a qualifier for jannah in 2:62.

Or maybe i can argue if God knew we didn?t need the Quran God wouldn?t have sent it.

I await such an argument.

To me belief in Quran is important. Probably i?m biased because of my background though others would say i'm a rebel.. i don?t know where life would have taken me otherwise. back to Ibrahim, i guess he followed the Quranic message without it, can many do that? I have no idea.

Don't forget he is an imam to mankind: 2:124.

[SarahY]

Jack

And you just made mine  'they don't need to profess belief in the quran to believe in the quran'. Took long enough 

Haha funny, i disagree. All the prophets preached the same concept message yet Quran is more specific than “Believe in God and do good”.  So no, even people who don’t profess their belief in Quran it doesn’t necessarily mean they follow it just because they adhere to some concepts of it.

Nice try. He's an imam for an-nas. So, we should certainly be following in his footsteps (60:4). He looked at the heavens, and asked questions. That's how he figured out God. He used logic. He didn't read it in a book.

I’m not disregarding Ibrahim’s footsteps.
 

Faulty logic: just because someone doesn't use al quran as a guide, doesn't mean a) there a better one b) they are using another guide. You can get to places without a map. You don't NEED a map to get to jannah. For some/many it helps, but others can reach the destination without a map. The quran is a guide, plain and simple. When you believe in the quran, you believe in its guidance, which is again its message.

Bad example, when you want to reach a destination and you don’t know where it is or where you are, you are bound to follow some sort of direction/guide i.e. road/street signs. It’s a guide not the greatest compared to having a gps or a street directory. You follow the message through other signs. You need some guidance you don’t have knowledge of the unseen.

I suggest reading progressive1993's post detailing  mumineen vs. muslimeen.

Basically you’re all saying someone who follows/adheres to Quran is a mumin and this is a better level.

If you reject its truthfulness (whatever that is), that would make us kafir. But, you don't HAVE to follow it (again 10:99). BTW, the God didn't forget to put the quran as a qualifier for jannah in 2:62.

You’re not making any sense. You would be a kafir if you reject “its truthfulness”. What if you reject following it? Same thing? If you reject it, it makes you a kafir/fasiq hence the importance of following it. 10:99 doesn’t mention you don’t have to follow it. If God willed he could have made us all mumineen and do we hate those who are not mumineen? i’m not hating anyone but it don’t make sense to me to read study Quran and then say i choose not to follow it even though i believe in it. As i’ve said before inevitably my actions are mine and they’re to my benefit or disadvantage. my ultimate return is to my lord so all that really matters is my actions. 2:62 doesn’t mention jannah.

I await such an argument.

How about we look at why the book was revealed?
 
4:105 We have sent down to thee the Book in truth, that thou mightest judge between men, as guided by Allah. so be not (used) as an advocate by those who betray their trust;

4:174 O mankind! verily there hath come to you a convincing proof from your Lord: For We have sent unto you a light (that is) manifest.

6:92 And this is a Book which We have sent down, bringing blessings, and confirming (the revelations) which came before it: that thou mayest warn the mother of cities and all around her. Those who believe in the Hereafter believe in this (Book), and they are constant in guarding their prayers.
6:155 And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy:

14:1 A. L. R. A Book which We have revealed unto thee, in order that thou mightest lead mankind out of the depths of darkness into light - by the leave of their Lord - to the Way of (Him) the Exalted in power, worthy of all praise!-
2:99 We have sent down to thee Manifest Signs (ayat); and none reject them but those who are perverse.

There are other verses though overall conclusion it’s a guide for us to bring us closer to God. If people don’t wanna be closer to God that’s their choice/problem.

Salam