Belief in AlQuran

[bkanwar2]

And many do not agree that it is a divine book from God

This precisely represent part of the current misconception about the Arabic word AL-Qur'an. 

but rather made up by the prophet Mohammed PBUH

so is this part



Badar

[nsws1988]

This precisely represent part of the current misconception about the Arabic word AL-Qur'an. 
so is this part



Badar

It does not have to be a misconception. Just an opinion.

What is your view?

[SarahY]

I had a flick through the links. Thanks Wakas. I?ll train myself in future inshallah.

Mazhar:
There can be many factors.. What we say we are is not necessary a true reflection of what we truly are... as the saying goes ?actions speak louder than words?. Though hopefully, we can be true to ourselves.

I don?t understand how a mumin cannot or wouldn?t act as a muslim. Wouldn?t you think they?d need to be muslims to be mumins?

abdulquran you said:

I think 'tawasau bil haqq and bis sabr' is another explanation of amal as-salih so yeah, it's for any people who follow this.

I think they are elements of `amal saleh.. but now i can argue what is haqq, is not Quran haqq? What of those who don?t wish to follow it. 
Read theses verses:  2:23-26

Do you think 2:23 is in relation to Quran only? Because 2:25 refers to? those who believe? and do ?amal salih will be rewarded etc. I think it?s in the contexts of 2:23.

It just makes me think that those who ?aamanou? are the ones who amanou in the Quran.  Maybe i?m not looking at the whole picture because of the idea in my head.

Also it can?t be enough for me to just be a ?muslim? because I believe in the Quran, so I?d be a ?fasiq? if I didn?t follow it (Read 2:99). It would also reflect ingratitude... so not good things.

Ajr, Allahu alem if it?s in dunya or akhira though you say it would say ?fid dunya? if it was for dunya only... but then in that case, i could argue my case of amanou refers to the believes of Quran would be right because it doesn?t explicitly say who the amanou?s are except in some instances; the verse i mentioned before 2:62 and 5:69. (I?m not sure if it?s used in different ayats I didn?t search yet)

San:

Muqeen? You mean muttaqeen (Almuttaqiyn)? I don't know about the highest level of Imaan, but yea i agree it surely ranks among the highest. Whether it's Almuttaqiyn or AlmuHsiniyn (or else) which ranks the highest, you'll find their descriptions in AQ intersect with each other. (btw 49:14-15 ends with AlSaAdiquwn and i can't find muttaqiyn in them--sure you quoted the right verse number?)

I think it is mutaqeen 49:13 says ?إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ اللَّهِ أَتْقَاكُمْ?

So as far as i am aware the best of us are the ones who attaqi allah, so would be the muttaqeen (Correct me if I?m wrong)

I think the root is ق ي = Ta-Qaf-Ya = to fear, be cautious, guarded, prepared, preserve, forethoughtful, reverential & pious fear (of God), righteous/virtuous/just/honest.

So i guess it may have links to taqwa.

Jack:
ok i guess ?ahlel kitab? can be muttaqeen.

What do you mean about iman being literal or not? the verse about many of them believing in jinn, the question there is what is jinn seeming they believed in jinn. I don?t see why belief can?t be taken literal. 

Badar:
your wording kind of confused me..

The belief of doing good works, monotheism and other concepts could well truly be accepted by people. However, Quran is more than just concepts. It has ?laws? which people would not accept, it has a message that people may not accept. Overall, generally speaking all people agree on goodness, it doesn?t mean they believe in AlQuran. 

[Jack]

Peace,

Peace, Jack  

Hence i said they intersect with each other, the group/set is just a way to see it in particular. When GOD calls "Yaa ayyuha Alladiyna Aamanuw", whoever think of himself as mu'min will think they're called. Consider that as an imaginary or mathematical group/set. Not a group of people under the banner of "mu'miniyn". That indeed doesn't make sense.

Sure...I can see where you are going with this.

Let's continue that a little further:

2:3 Alladiyna yu[w]'minuwna bi'lGaybi wa yuqiymuwna 'lSalaAta wa mimmaA razaqnaA hum yunfiquwn
Who believe: in the unseen, establish AlSalaAt, and of what We have provided for them they spend out

2:4 w Alladiyna yu[w]'minuwna bimaA Unzila Ilayka wa maA Unzila min qablika wa bi'lAaHirati hum yuwqinuwn
And who believe: in what has been revealed to you and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain.

That is how we understand Almuttaqiyn from these early verses.

Almuttaqiyn do: believe: in the unseen and establish AlSalaAt and spend out
Almuttaqiyn, in addition to our previous understanding of Almuttaqiyn, do: believe: in what has been revealed to them and what was revealed before them and certain: of the Hereafter

Ok. Here's how I read these verses. Would you agree that 2:5-6 kafireen are being contrasted with mutaqeen? So the subject is still the mutaqeen. If we keep reading...2:8 contrasts munafiqeen with mumineen (not muttaqeen). Where are mumineen mentioned before this verse? How come all the sudden they have entered the picture? That's my logic here.

3:17 is another excellent example on how various other characters/roles/states/aspects are used to describe another character/state. The context of the verse must be studied to understand what character/state is being described. (hint: 3:15). Either you see it that way (the latter explaining the former) or another (the former explaining the latter), your understanding of all of those characters/states would increase collectively (mentioned the concepts of ittaquw, `ibad, jannah, Imaan, IstiGfar, Sabr, Sadiq, qanit, infaq).

True, the context must always be studied. 3:15 is not the context. The context is an-nas, if you start from the beginning of the chapter, as these verses are speaking directly to us.

9:44 Those who believe: in Allah and the Last Day would not ask permission of you to be excused from striving with their wealth and their lives. And Allah is Knowing of those who fear Him (Almuttaqiyn).

To understand why Almuttaqiyn is used to end this verse, let's see 2:177, which includes believe: in Allah and the Last Day. Those were informed to us to be parts of what Almuttaqiyn do. So, by including the word Almuttaqiyn in the verse 9:44, don't you think Allah reminded us of a concept more complete than that described in 9:44?

But the address is ya-ayuhallatheena-aminoo (9:38). furthermore, mumineen also strive with their money and lives... (9:41). Muttaqeen are not alone in believing in Allah and last day (2:62 for instance).

Now finally, re: "synonymously", let me ask you something, Jack:

1) If we took muttaqiyn and mu'minuwn as synonym, how can we learn something new from each?

2) Why there are two distinct words used if they are indeed synonym?



Peace

1) This is exactly HOW we learn something new from each. You see the quran has concepts that are supposed to be studied in detail. It's quiet easy to take the quran out of context, if you are lazy and don't have a pure heart/mind. This is why we are meant to study these ideas in depth. Working for our food, as it were. Another example is kafireen, who are also thalimeen (2:254), amongst other synonyms...
2) See above. Additionally, A good author repeats the same concepts and articulates it using different terminology. Notice, for example, how the same stories are repeated, but worded differently. Parts make up the whole.

Jack:

What do you mean about iman being literal or not? the verse about many of them believing in jinn, the question there is what is jinn seeming they believed in jinn. I don?t see why belief can?t be taken literal.  

I am not saying that belief is not literal per se. My points concerning that verse are as follows:

A) How is most of humanity believers in the jinn, if most don't even know who they are?
b) Doesn't this show your iman is shown through your actions, and thus, is not a superficial thing? Think about HOW most of humanity are believers in the jinn. Can I say 'i believe in the quran' and go around murdering people? Do I still believe in the quran, if I go against its teachings? Actions show one's TRUE beliefs.
c)Is 34:41 limited to any time in 'history'? Another words, this verse applies to people before the advent of the quran.

Rejecting the quran would be rejecting its teachings. In order for one to reject its teachings, one must receive the message, as it was intended. If I, for example, encountered a bad translation, and I rejected 'the quran' based on that, did I really reject the quran, or *insert translator's name here*'s VERSION of the quran?

[san]

Peace,

Peace,

Sure...I can see where you are going with this.

Ok. Here's how I read these verses. Would you agree that 2:5-6 kafireen are being contrasted with mutaqeen? So the subject is still the mutaqeen.

Actually, while i agree that those who كفرو are of course opposing both Almu'miniyn and Almuttaqiyn, the verse 2:6 itself is clear:

2:6
إن الذين كفروا سواء عليهم أأنذرتهم أم لم تنذرهم لا يؤمنون

Indeed, those who kafaruw - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe.

the kafaruw is contrasted with "yu'minuwn" -- instead of "yattaquwn", for example. So i would say that i disagree on your first question. The subject in the verse, in my humble opinion, could very well be the "alladiyna kafaruw" themselves. In a slightly bigger view 2:2-8, the subjects are more than just muttaqiyn.

If you asked Would you agree that 2:5-6 kafireen are being contrasted to both mutaqeen and mu'miniyn? instead, i'd answer 'Yes, i agree.'

If we keep reading...2:8 contrasts munafiqeen with mumineen (not muttaqeen). Where are mu'mineen mentioned before this verse? How come all the sudden they have entered the picture? That's my logic here.

Would you agree, for example, that Almu'minuwn/Almu'miniyn/Alladina Amanuw/Iman/yu'minuwn are actors and the actions? Would you agree that the actor is not separable from the action?

If you agree, then please read on.

ومن الناس من يقول آمنا بالله وباليوم الآخر وما هم بمؤمنين

Actually the word munafiqeen itself has not been introduced here. Introduced is the concept of
And of the people are some who say, "We believe in Allah and the Last Day," but they are not with believers..

Their action is only "say", which i would say is not even a part of the action of "Iman" (which is in the heart/inner).

So, there is no need for specific word mu'miniyn. The verse itself talks about those who says about Iman but they are not with mu'miniyn. Please also observe the beginning of the the verse: "wa minan-nas..." Compare to the verses before. Is it still talking about muttaqiyn? On this verse, I think no, not necessarily.


Let's see the transitions:

2:2 This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah - (Almuttaqiyn)

2:3 Who believe: in the unseen, establish AlSalaAt, and of what We have provided for them they spend out

2:4 w Alladiyna yu'minuwna bimaA Unzila Ilayka wa maA Unzila min qablika wa bi'lAaHirati hum yuwqinuwn
And who believe: in what has been revealed to you and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain.

2:5 Uwla Ika ...
Those are upon guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful.

        ... Is that not a 'stop sign' from referencing to Almuttaqiyn?

2:6 Indeed, those who kafaruw - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe.

       new subject: alladiyna kafaruw ... not believe (laA yu'minuwn)

2:7  .... wa lahum ...
Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment.

      ... Is that not a 'stop sign' from referencing to alladiyna kafaruw?

2:8 And of the mankind are some who say, "We believe in Allah and the Last Day," but they are not believers.

      ... where did mu'miniyn came?

      ...why not ask where did reference to iman (alladiyna amanu/yu'minuwn/...) came?
          compare this one to 2:6 and 2:3-4.  Relationship?

      2:3-4 talks about some aspects of belief/iman in addition to other aspects of taqwa/almuttaqiyn

      2:6 talks about people who just covered it -- they won't believe/la yu'minuwn.

      2:8 talks about people who say they believe but they are actually not with believers


      Aren't 2:9-20 talking about the people in 2:8? Let's follow up

2:8 Wa minan-nas...

2:21 Ya ayyuhan-nas...
O mankind, worship your Lord, who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous (tattaquwn)

True, the contrast in 2:8 itself was against mu'miniyn. And then in 2:21 (after extensive description about 2:8 ) ALLAH tells mankind to become tattaquwn??

Isn't it because the concept of taqwa is more than that of iman? Or in other words, that the concept of taqwa is a superset of that of iman?



...t.b. continued on next post



(ed: funny incident -- "2:" instead of "2:8 )" )

[san]

...continued from previous post

True, the context must always be studied. 3:15 is not the context. The context is an-nas, if you start from the beginning of the chapter, as these verses are speaking directly to us.

What is a context? Isn't it the surrounding of a text? How far or how near we would define the "surrounding"?

If the context is an-nas, then does that mean there can't be a subcontext of an-nas?

But the address is ya-ayuhallatheena-aminoo (9:38). furthermore, mumineen also strive with their money and lives... (9:41).

True. Even in 9:44 it is still started with those who believe. AFAIK, There is not a single call ya-ayuhallatheena-attaqoo.
Who are called to "Ittaquw!"? An-nas or allatheena-amanoo.

Strive with their money and lives = jahiduw ... This is another concept of action. The actor of jihad is mujahid.
Who's being called to "jahiduw!"? Right, mu'mineen/allatheena-aminoo.

Muttaqeen are not alone in believing in Allah and last day (2:62 for instance).

But weren't you the one who said previously, 'muttaqeen, almuhsinyn etc are not specific groups?', which i have agreed upon (except on the 'aspects of a mumin' part)?

Muttaqeen, almuhsynin etc are not specific groups, they are states, aspects of a mumin.

True, that the muttaqiyn must have been mu'miniyn (i.e. believing in Allah and last day, among other concepts to believe in), does not mean that the only ones who believe are muttaqiyn.

And it is important to note: that also does not mean that every mu'min has taqwa.

Please consider this:

Do all mu'min have iman? Obviously yes. mu'min is the actor. iman is the act.
Do all mu'min have taqwa?

Do all muttaqin have iman? Since the beginning of Quran it is said that muttaqin are those who have iman so, yes.
Do all muttaqin have taqwa? Obviously yes. muttaqin is the actor. taqwa is the act.

Why does ALLAH tell the mu'miniyn/alladina Amanuw to "Ittaquw", if all mu'miniyn already/always have taqwa?

Similarly, why does ALLAH tell the mu'miniyn/alladina Amanuw to do "Amilu AlSaliHat", if all mu'miniyn already/always do amilu SaliHat?

See, for example, someone who just have believed in Allah and the Last Day and have done nothing else? Is he a mu'min? He is beginning to be a mu'min, i'd say. Is he a muttaqiyn? No, he's not even yet a "complete" mu'min.

Then when he already believed all the concepts needed to be believed to be a mu'min, he is now a mu'min. Is he a muttaqiyn? Not necessarily. He must do the actions of taqwa to be a muttaqiyn.

1) This is exactly HOW we learn something new from each. You see the quran has concepts that are supposed to be studied in detail. It's quiet easy to take the quran out of context, if you are lazy and don't have a pure heart/mind. This is why we are meant to study these ideas in depth. Working for our food, as it were. Another example is kafireen, who are also thalimeen (2:254), amongst other synonyms...

2) See above. Additionally, A good author repeats the same concepts and articulates it using different terminology. Notice, for example, how the same stories are repeated, but worded differently.
Parts make up the whole.

Thank you for that last expression. I agree 100% on that.

The Best Author, in my humble opinion, repeats the same concepts and adds new information regarding the concepts or presents new relationship between concepts each time He repeats the previously presented concepts.

The Best Author, in my humble opinion, meant every term as specific to its own concept.


I should have asked this from the start: what does "synonymous" mean to you?

One can be a muslim, and a mu'min, and a muttaqiyn, and a muHsin. Does that make "muslim" synonym to "mu'min", and to "muttaqiyn", and to "muHsin"?



Peace

[SarahY]

Jack:

What is jinn firstly? How do you see it? (you can ignore this if you like, read on)

People can believe without knowing necessarily what it is identified as. Ok, that kinda makes no sense... let me try share some examples.

When children learn for example, they see a cat it has four legs, it has fur. They then see a dog and think ?cat? because it contains the same characteristics of fur + 4 legs but it?s not a cat, we know it?s not because a dog barks a cat doesn?t. so the child accommodates their knowledge to something else and calls it ?cat? then when new knowledge is learnt, they learn ah it barks it must be a ?dog? not a cat because someone identified that for them or they learnt that somehow... so their knowledge assimilates. Possibly adults are the same in some instances we may identify things as we know it until shown a different meaning. 

Ok maybe that was a lame example think about people who believe in superstitions they dunno why but they think ?what if? so they believe them. They dunno what it is or what it exactly means but they believe in them.

Belief doesn?t have to be logical. 

And yes iman can be shown through our actions i agree, no it?s not a superficial thing. But let me tell you, I can believe in AlQuran i can believe in the laws i can be a muslim and i can ?choose? to let me desires/wishes/whims control me even though i ?still believe? in the Quran. My actions may not show true reflections of my belief but i could still believe yet my desires/wishes/whims control me or rather i would let them control me however i still believe.

You mentioned killing, i could kill someone and feel guilt that i did an evil deed and that i?m going to be punished. I could still believe in Quran and still do bad. I think it would just have a really bad psychological toll.

Rejecting the quran would be rejecting its teachings. In order for one to reject its teachings, one must receive the message, as it was intended. If I, for example, encountered a bad translation, and I rejected 'the quran' based on that, did I really reject the quran, or *insert translator's name here*'s VERSION of the quran?

We?re all on a learning boat, it might be possible that i?m misunderstanding the message ?as it was intended?. I can?t simply agree with a translator or base my findings by one person esp if i know language is much more complex than this. but yeh, people can be biased based on how they understand Quran due to someone?s interpretation. Though if someone tries to say, prove a misconception and they don?t look into it or intentionally ignore it. I?d think that?s somewhat arrogant. Besides that, i think people can get an overall idea through translations.

[SarahY]

San:

In relation to 2:21 I?m not sure if taqwa is a superset of iman but the verse indicates ibadah?s purpose is to gain taqwa.

Who are called to "Ittaquw!"? An-nas or allatheena-amanoo.

Nas are part of those who allatheeena amanoo.  Unless you think you?re not an insan. Why wouldn?t those who amanoo follow the ?ittaquw? commands? 

Why does ALLAH tell the mu'miniyn/alladina Amanuw to "Ittaquw", if all mu'miniyn already/always have taqwa?

Similarly, why does ALLAH tell the mu'miniyn/alladina Amanuw to do "Amilu AlSaliHat", if all mu'miniyn already/always do amilu SaliHat?

See, for example, someone who just have believed in Allah and the Last Day and have done nothing else? Is he a mu'min? He is beginning to be a mu'min, i'd say. Is he a muttaqiyn? No, he's not even yet a "complete" mu'min.

Then when he already believed all the concepts needed to be believed to be a mu'min, he is now a mu'min. Is he a muttaqiyn? Not necessarily. He must do the actions of taqwa to be a muttaqiyn.

Why do you think Allah would tell the mumineen to ittaqow ?? the whole purpose of Quran is to guide us, is there an infallible human? It is a reminder a dhikr? It?s a guide? We need the reminder?

Why can?t mu?mineen be muttaqeen? Simple because it address mu?mineen and muttaqiyn? Couldn?t it be siffat? Attributes of a mumin? Couldn?t they be aspects of being a mu`mineen or maybe abdulquran?s theory comes to play; the muttaqeen being the highest level. Though i?m not sure if i agree. Akram doesn?t necessary mean best and i?m not sure if it?s in relation to ?iman? but rather deeds.

salam

[san]

San:

In relation to 2:21 I?m not sure if taqwa is a superset of iman but the verse indicates ibadah?s purpose is to gain taqwa.

And taqwa is ...?

Nas are part of those who allatheeena amanoo.

CORRECTION: i would say that the set AlNaas intersect the set Allatheena Amanuw.

Why wouldn?t those who amanoo follow the ?ittaquw? commands?  Why do you think Allah would tell the mumineen to ittaqow ?? the whole purpose of Quran is to guide us, is there an infallible human? It is a reminder a dhikr? It?s a guide? We need the reminder?

Despite the strange question marks, i agree with those sentences. Please see: http://www.quran.com/search/ittaqoo for a little bit of research

Why can?t mu?mineen be muttaqeen?

who said that?

being a mu'miniyn is the first step to be a muttaqiyn. 2:2-4, 2:177 exemplify that (sorry these two are the easiest numbers i could remember, please research)

Simple because it address mu?mineen and muttaqiyn? Couldn?t it be siffat? Attributes of a mumin? Couldn?t they be aspects of being a mu`mineen or maybe abdulquran?s theory comes to play; the muttaqeen being the highest level. Though i?m not sure if i agree. Akram doesn?t necessary mean best and i?m not sure if it?s in relation to ?iman? but rather deeds.

Siffat, or Amal (Action/deeds)?

Rather than attributes/siffat/aspects, actually i prefer the words act, action, actor, interaction. Because acts are simply more directive for believers.

It could be that muttaqiyn is indeed the highest level (I too must research far more comprehensively to be sure), but the highest level of what?

Wouldn't it be more productive to study the actions of each name/concept (of actors in plural form), so we can practice them in real world -- instead of theoretical stuff like 'the highest' of something? Hence why i listed in my previous post, some of the name/concepts of those actors. So we would have a clue on what act we already know and practiced and what act we must still learn and practice.



Salaam,


CORRECTION: on the 'Annas part of allatheena amanoo'

[Wakas]

Re 2:21

Nice catch on the taqwa front. See also:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15870.0

makes a very cool observation about "taqwa" (Ta-Qaf-Ya), in that the verb "ittaqa" primarily meant and essentially means to place between yourself and something you are afraid of something which might protect you by preventing from it reaching you. This, he says, in the Quranic context is ibadah (Ayn-Ba-Dal). He says its meaning of "pious fear" is a developed meaning from the earlier meaning.

Similarly with "ibadah" (commonly translated as worship, but is more akin to servitude). When one serves their master, their sayings and actions are done in accordance to their master's will, but in doing so, the actions/sayings eventually come to take precedence from an outside-looking-in perspective, hence not the mindset but the acts become "ibadah", hence a more ritualistic approach. Hence a subtle shift to translations using "worship".