Author Topic: Was Moses in Egypt?????  (Read 35614 times)

tutti_frutti

  • Beginner/Inquirer
  • *
  • Posts: 98
  • Karma +1/-0
Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
« Reply #150 on: May 26, 2020, 04:21:34 PM »
salam good logic

i agree with your logic lol

we should not call people kafir
we dont know who is kafir who is not (i am not speaking about the open polytheism)
only The God knows

salam eveyone,

i want to add another thing. we need to stop making assumptions and taking the Quran as a mystery book.
example we cannot assume ramadan is ten days or three days. why assume that? did The God say that? no
The God said who witnesses the month let him or her fast IT.
starting to use verses that have no relationship to ramadan to try to figure out what fixed number of days means is a bit weird in my opinion. fixed numner of days could perhaps mean: the whole month and not some of it! or perhaps not 29 or 30 days depending on the year but always either 30 or 29!
or maybe shahr means a period! and ramadan is a period of 40 days?
the point is, we fast IT! the period/month of ramadan

The God says bowing and prostrating and even tells us when (salats are named! aaand described !!! (ends of dlthe day and oarts of the night and day of gathering!) why start making assumptions and thinking ourselves heros that are soo clever that they figured out that prostating and bowing means something else and salat does not mean prayer

same goes for the masjid! its quite obvious to me (unless im
mistaken of course) that we make pilgrim to the house which is the masjid al Haram and we face it from wherever we go out ! (and other instances perhaps like during prayer maybe?)

we should not let satan fool us.

people, we need prostrate eveyday to The God and ask forgiveness for us, our family, and the mo’mineen, seek guidance from The God, submit completely and say it (in Quran we are told to say sayings like our lives, worship, devotion and death belong to The God and our Lord give us good in this life, good in the hereafter and save us from the fire (i personally say these and others during prayer)). also please read verses 110 and 110 of surah 17 (more info on prayer and what to say)

anyways i am just sharing what i truly believe
and hope to also learn from other people here

to conclude, please stop making assumptions and seeking interprtations. satan makes people’s deeds seem good to them

none of us know if we are guided or not. we should always question ourselves and seek guidance from The God

glory to The God, The only King, The Owner of existence

and peace to you all



jkhan

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1204
  • Karma +4/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
« Reply #151 on: May 26, 2020, 07:41:24 PM »
Peace...

@ TF. 
I see you as a kind hearted person.. I am not going to respond your repeated emotions... Only thing I can advise you is keep on asking for guidance which is truth... Ask your creator to expose the truth in day light... Coz you say you don't know you are guided or not or believer or not Muslim or not... You want to die in ambiguity? ..
Don't worry about people what people say of masjid...  What is right for you take it.  If God guides you He will only guide you with truth soon or later.... If not totally lost...
But you should note this Ramadhan, salat, masjid haram, Zakath, ummi and many a verses only very much straightforward when Quran revealed.. But for us needs exploration... Coz time elapsed, language changed, Satan influenced and things are hidden... So without exploring if anyone can follow Quran that's worthy answering to God..
Explore dear...  Our emotions are useless.. if you happen to go Janna and your loved ones not.. We can't say to God I will never enter until you allow my loved ones as well to Janna.. ..
Real believers never go and say to any kafir, Munafiq, mushrik etc.. "You are a damn kafir".. Why should they?  I have in my entire life never called anyone as such.. But those who follow hadith (Sunni Muslim) calls us kafir just coz we follow Quran and that's what God ordered to and for not following hadith which has no base according to Quran... Not only they call us kaafir face to face but they unfortunately call us iblees and Satan and even call us destined for hell.. But I never call them by anything.. But I definitely know what they follow is wrong according to Quran... Coz their actions reflects what they follow.. Coz they don't follow Quran  ..
But knowing them is not difficult and sometimes useful for our life to keep away from them and their deception ..
My friends specially budhists they mock the word Allah..   And openly call He didn't create anything it's all craps of Quran.. So do i say to them " you kafir "... I know they are..  What I wish is guidance for them and debate with Quran till they get away speechless .. That's all I don't  worry about them.. Coz it's God's  business why they live so.. ..
We are human..  Whether hadith follower or christian or budhist or Hindu or jews what ever.  We  all share the world together ... Believers are tested by having to live with disbelievers.. that's why disbelivers don't share Janna... Never forget some disbelievers accept at certain point the God and His way.. Haven't you seen those themselves call they are DISBELIVERS (kafir) in God... Budhist clergies in our country publicly preach saying according to budhism if anyone claims there is  God he is no more a budhist.. So according to Quran they are kaafir.. And accept that there is No God.. So what's the big issue in it.. It's his path.. It's just a word Arabic kufar to disbelive...  I kufar/ disbelieve man landed on moon.. So I am a kafir for those who mumin (believer) on man landed on moon... What's wrong they call me kaafir of moon landing.. What's wrong i call them mumin of manlanding on moon.. Kafir of God and his verses.. Believer of God and His verses.. Just as simple as that..

Right path is right path..  Only one path...

There is criteria for belief.. That's why prophet Nuh said there is no one to believe anymore ... 71:26-27 indicates Nuh knew believers to take them on board to ship and leave the disbelievers on the ground... How did he know?  That's coz there is a criteria to become a believer.. And nuh knew them.. Don't say nuh would have boarded by mistake  kaafir as well and could have missed some believers too..

Finally there could be assumptions within believers who take Quran as guidance... Coz they explore... Note they all say as a note verify...  So verify..
For example I do not believe earth is spinning and man never landed on moon according to Quran but believers like Layth brother Waqas do believe it seems as man landed on moon and earth is spinning ... Does this mean we are disbelievers of God and His verses since we contradict .. Did we reach for any other books to explore it.. I remained only with quran to nullify it..and they bring the same book to justify it.. God will He will expose what is truth..
That's why I said we have explanation to God on the day of ressurection that we took only Your book.. Our knowledge made us to assume things in the manner it is not coz we wanted to deny You intentionally .. Our Lord.. But if one follows Hadith what's his explanation?  Who authorized it?  Did Quran authorised following hadith?  So why did you follow?  They will only blame their leaders..
True Believers have no leaders but Quran..

Verify.. That's it..
Just verify below verses as well for a change.. .

10:05 "It is He who made the sun a radiance, and the moon a light, and determined it by stations/
phases, that you might know the number of the years and the reckoning. God created that not save with the truth, distinguishing the signs to a people who know."

God said created moon phases and not for sun or Earth phases.. Unfortunately Earth has phases according to science.. ... That's why I don't trust them and trust Quran.. Hope my fellow believers also ponder..
From the day God created earth and heavens 12 full cycle of moon... In our language 12 months.. But unfortunately Earth has full cycle..
2:189 "They ask you about crescent / hilal.. " Unfortunately earth has hilal..
Verify and follow what is right..
Why do earth need hilal?  Probably we gonna live on moon in future.. While God promises we live on earth and die here..

Believers are believers as long as they adhere to Quran alone... But knowledge within Quran may differ person to person.. Like I mentioned above..

Refer this topic if anyone interested  in this..

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610127.0

Layth

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
  • Karma +15/-4
  • Gender: Male
Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
« Reply #152 on: May 27, 2020, 01:45:29 AM »
Salam Good Logic,

Quote
Here is what Qoran advises:
Do not call any peaceful person "you are not a believer", if your aim is to correct them, then do it " Bi Al Hikmati Wa Al Mawidati Al Hasanati".With good intention.
Of course you should uphold the truth and be honest with it.

First of all, the Quran does not say what you have said:

"O you who believe, if you strike in the cause of God, you shall investigate carefully. And do not say to he who greets you with peace: "You are not a believer!" You are seeking the vanity of this world; but with God are many riches. That is how you were before, but God graced you, so investigate carefully. God is expert over what you do." (4:94)

The verse quoted is from a military expedition where the prophet is on the offensive and he is told by God that if someone comes to him and says "peace unto you", then he should not assume that person is a "hostile" enemy, but that he should "investigate".

Quote
The issue is what is the benefit of calling a kafir even if they are one?

Do you think when God says in chapter 109 "Say: O you rejectors, I do not serve what you serve..." that He is addressing nobody? Or, do you think the people of Mecca knew who the audience was and the audience knew who they were?

It is not my role to tell you who is who, but you should know that there are some people out there who will work diligently to make you fail for calling to God alone and will even persecute or try to harm you if they have the opportunity...

We can all sing Kumbaya and hold hands, but I fear that is not the reality of this world.

Quote
There is a difference between knowing that certain people are following traditions and false religions and being hostile with them by calling them kafirs..
We should give the example by being peaceful,but  honest with our views and inviting them amicably to reflect., unless  of course they turn away/refuse . Then one should ignore and walk away amicably.

Where on earth did you get the notion from any posts made here about "being hostile" to rejectors?

We all work and live with rejectors and mushriks and manafiqs and muslims and mumins...This is the nature of people that they will gravitate towards one of the 5-types.

Knowing what type you are dealing with will give you clarity and understanding, especially in light of the Quran. For example, a munafiq hides his/her disbelief, so they will always be agreeable with the believers and pose as one of them (which is why they get the worst level in Hell), yet they will slip in saying certain phrases which stem from their lack of faith...A mushrik is someone who loves God, but loves others with Him and will always bring his/her idol into the conversation and will even take religious laws and rules from them...A kaffir is one who rejects outright, be it the rejection of God, His laws, or His messengers. This is the most active and hostile type towards believers as the clash of ideas cannot be reconciled.

Now, I repeat for clarity: you can be friends with ALL these types and you can live and work with them in harmony and peace. However, when things go south, remember that the lack of law and order reveals peoples innermost selves, and the behavior of outwardly peaceful people in Rawanda or Darfur, or Bosnia or Iraq or Germany (WWII) or anywhere was a confirmation of what God is warning us about.
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

Layth

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
  • Karma +15/-4
  • Gender: Male
Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
« Reply #153 on: May 27, 2020, 02:52:20 AM »
Salam TF,

Quote
so believer/submitter is defined to be someone who believes in The God and upholds Quran only whilst hadith followers are disbelievers?

Submitter is anyone who submits to God and does good work (41:33). Upholding the Quran is not a prerequisite.

Quote
you need to understand what shirk means. you think shirk is openly being polytheistic. well no.

Shirk is a constant that needs to be worked on avoiding until the day we die (hence the prayer of the prophets is always "our Lord, let us die as submitters". Some people are lazy and continue shirk when it is pointed out, while others are diligent and make sure to repent or change their ways if they feel they have erred (like Solomon with the horses or David with the judgement of the shepherds).

Quote
the devil perhaps also makes “submitters” (who updhold Quran only) believe that prayer is not physical, that they do not need to bow down to The God and prostrate.
the devil could also make it seem to submitters that ramadan is just a couple of days and not a month, or that there is no masjid to make pilgrimage to.
and yet the “submitters” will think they are on the right path even though they dont pray or make pilgrimage etc. remember The God gave permission (as nothing happens without His permission) to the devil to make people’s works seem good and attractive to them.

Says the person who rushes into the Quran thinking he knows it all, when it should have been done slowly (20:114).

God tells man to "think/reflect/analyze/examine." So, this is your chance to do so.

I will point you to a nice article that shows the distinction between "Muslim" & "Mumin". You will need this information as you keep bringing up the subjects of Salat & Fasting in the wrong context and for the wrong audience (not your fault as the Sunnis/Shia were the ones who first did this shuffle):

https://www.free-minds.org/mumins
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

good logic

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 5206
  • Karma +4/-0
Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
« Reply #154 on: May 27, 2020, 06:36:07 AM »
Peace Layth.
Let us take your points one at a time:
1 your quote   First of all, the Quran does not say what you have said:

My take; it says many more like what I said.about being fair, being sure, being forgiver, being nice, being peaceful, not calling anyone if they are peaceful....Or do you want me to give you the verses? You are a student of Qoran I am sure you can find them .I will provide them ., if you wish.
Just because GOD can distinguish and always justly,  GOD has the complete knowledge of our innermost thoughts.We need to be careful and give folks the benefit of a doubt, we can easily be unjust to people.

Resorting to patience and forgiveness reflects a true strength of character.

2-your quote:  We can all sing Kumbaya and hold hands, but I fear that is not the reality of this world..

No. We are not each others Wakils. Who is asking you to give up your values? GOD is asking us to live the example not just say it in a nice manner  and certainly to treat all people nicely and fairly unless they agress against us or try to stop our freedom of choice.
 Remember GOD was giving authorisation and starting a movement that was supported and guided by GOD. Who has the authority now to carry on with this?
We can only pass on the message in a peaceful manner and with a good example.
If you feel GOD is asking you to do it differently ,then you have the freedom to do it your way or even call it GOD s way.
As for people being all sorts ,that is not relevant if we trust in GOD and follow the straight path under GOD s protection. We should not fear anything or act out of fear and assumptions.

3- your quote: Where on earth did you get the notion from any posts made here about "being hostile" to rejectors?

Do you think I just posted my take out of the blue? I was answering jkhan, just read again and you will find why.
Even then, I was advising and being general. I was not accusing or blaming anyone.. I will be going against my own advice brother!

How can we have a better argument if we do the same as others that do not follow GOD s message? Should we not follow the best path instructed to us by GOD in Qoran?
Of course one can do as they please ,follow Qoran as they understand it and ignore what I say. I am not expecting anything from anyone they do not want to do or agree with me.

4- Your quote:  Now, I repeat for clarity: you can be friends with ALL these types and you can live and work with them in harmony and peace. However, when things go south, remember that the lack of law and order reveals peoples innermost selves, and the behavior of outwardly peaceful people in Rawanda or Darfur, or Bosnia or Iraq or Germany (WWII) or anywhere was a confirmation of what God is warning us about.

I will also clarify:
You shall resort to pardon, advocate tolerance, and disregard the ignorant.

Since we are always in  contact with fellow humans, it is likely to encounter a wide range of defective behavior and negative traits . That is the norm with hunam beings.. This generates hurt which could escalate to various emotional and psychological problems specially for those who are aware and appreciative of their God-given rights and those who are blessed with thoughtful hearts and high standards of morality. We need to learn to practice forgiveness and replace the negative vibes by positive ones towards all people who do us no harm.

Forgiveness is sufficiently highlighted by our Merciful God, and all what we need to do is to grasp the correct understanding, the guidelines and the consequences of this practice in order to apply it comfortably and firmly and benefit from its positive outcome:

 But of course we also need to stand up  for our right and defendind against aggression,

And even when we stand for our rights, our strength of character to pardon and let go of the pain comes naturally as an outcome. Standing for our rights is a command from God to all believers. In no way, God would allow the believers to be apathetic towards aggression and injustice is clear to me in Qoran.

However there is no need to distrust people as a habit. We must be friendly, peaceful , helpful and loving to all.
 For me , I found the worst enemy is myself. I have enough to be going on with trying to do what is right.
 Thanks brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
:
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

tutti_frutti

  • Beginner/Inquirer
  • *
  • Posts: 98
  • Karma +1/-0
Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
« Reply #155 on: May 27, 2020, 06:38:11 AM »
salam jkhan

hope all is well with you

we should not make any assumptions and think just brcause we believe inThe God and uphold Quran as the only truth that we are guided

we do not agree on what shirk means

also do not assume you will be given the opportunity to plead your case on day of judgement and say “i only followed Quran”. Did The God say we could plead our cases? if so please show me the verse
and even if you plead, The God does whatever He wants

There are not many ways but one. example prayer is either physical or not. those who uphold Quran and believe in One God but do not pray physically, are they guided? does not The God say to maintain our prayers, and that even at times of war we should pray? and that a group should pray whilst another should be of watch and then vice verse (isnt that yet another proof prayer is physical) The God guides whom He wants and He also knows who desrves to be guided.

regarding verses with nuh you mentioned, i do not think it is what you said. nuh does not know who is a believer and who is not on earth except from his people (as obviously the believers boarded the ship with him). did nuh not plead with The God for his son? the verses you mention in my opinion serve to tell us that the flood was global and not local as nuh asks The God to not leave any disbelievers on earth

you do not believe man was on the moon, why? have you spoken with those who claim to have landed on the main or organized it? you assume no man landed on moon from other assumptions (such as the issue with the flag etc) again my point is that we should not assume things

salam layth

hope all is well with you too

i do not follow what sunni shia do for salat or ramadan but my understanding of them through the Quran

i honestly absolutely do not understand your definition of salat or ramadan and why you also made assumptions from your article about ramadan being in winter and only ten days

i do not think i know it all, i perhaps know nothing. that is the point  am trying to get accross. no one knows who is guided and we should stop assuming we are guided. and to also stop innovating

i gave my opinion about salat and ramadan etc and you give/gave yours (in your articles as well as the forum and this thread) how am i the “i know it all” type and you no? and how am i the i know it all if i keep saying we should not assume we are guided and you assume to be guided whilst alll the others including hadith believers to not be guided?

i only share what i believe and call on people here who believe prayer not physical to maintain their physical prayers and stop with the assumptions

if you may, please prove to me salat is not physical using the verses and i will prove to you the contrary

same for ramadan being ten days and in winter (if you want to do so of course)

anyways, i reflect and look at the verses and take them at face value, i do not jump to conclusions just to be different from sunni or shia for the sake of being different like i felt some people do in this website

thanx for the article :)

peace

jkhan

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1204
  • Karma +4/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
« Reply #156 on: May 27, 2020, 08:47:40 AM »
Peace...

1... I will make assumptions.. And explore QURAN as long as I need clarity and guidance... Is that an issue for you?  You want me to do what you say.. "pls don't make assumptions"..
I am responsible for my life... I need to explore.. In explorations assumptions are vital.. Bit within Quran..

2... I don't want to agree with you about shirk.. Quran is clear about what is shirk. If doubt go re-read all shirk verses..

3... I wish I don't need to plead with God about anything on the day of ressurection... Those who plead could only be the misfortunes.. So I don't need your imaginary assumption that I do plead  ... I wish God judge me with what I have done as He has promised in His book.  My God never break His promise... God will give the record to me and I know what I have done and He won't miss anything in that book without being recorded.. I know what I have done. So don't worry about me.. I don't know my future in current life .. God bless me to be better than past..

Don't think we don't get opportunity to talk with God.. Coz He says every soul will be questioned on what they did...  Harder the questions for disbelievers... Questions needs to answered.. I know I have surrendered to the one who created me..
And I have believed in His promise in Quran.. He says " why should I punish the believers ".. Cannot remember verse number.. I am not serving a God who is injustice and promise breaker... I am serving the one the most merciful and most Just...God does what He wants but He cannot break the promise that He made to men and jinn... He is true and not a liar..

4.. Salat in Quran has many meaning  .one of them is PHYSICAL PRAYER... Just go ask anyone who says it's not physically done.. Not me... Coz I do stand three times a day and what I do... It's my contact with God..

5....i know very well nuh pleaded to God for his son.. Nuh was human.. And how can he see his son dying at least not calling him to the ship.. But God clearly advised not to disobey Him.. Then He understood..
For me.. The deluge was worldwide.. But on the earth only Nuh's community lived.. So it was not an issue for him..

6...dont assume and say that I assume this and that while you don't know what I assume..
Man never landed on moon.. I say it coz it is not a place to land.. Moon has its own light and it is not created in a way that we could land.. Quran verses clear moon has phases.. And these phases has no connection with sun.. God changes its shape until it return to appear as date stalk.. ... And I don't have time to find out when they land on any other so called moons... How many moons God has created? You think I am fool to trust them whenever they land on each and every imaginary moons and planets.. While God says he created Moon  and not MoonS.. God says He created sun a radiant light and moon a light in the sky.. May be God forgot earth is also a light in the sky it may be forgotton that  there more bigger and larger objects than this sun and moon to be called radiant to sun in the sky..

Out of Quran if you need explanation. For me moon is plasma.. So don't try to near it ...

I wish I can speak to them and ask what I have to ask? You seem you are just a little joker.. I have spoken to them.. Ha ..ha ha

tutti_frutti

  • Beginner/Inquirer
  • *
  • Posts: 98
  • Karma +1/-0
Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
« Reply #157 on: May 27, 2020, 09:01:17 AM »
salam jkhan

i would like to please ask you a question (for my knowledge)

you pray 3 times a day
please explain to me what are the three prayers you do and how you got to that conclusion? (do you recite Quran or not during prayer?)

my understanding of prayer is (1) from sunset to dusk and throughout night, (2) before fajr, (3) and day of gathering

please share your understanding

thank uuu

peace

jkhan

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1204
  • Karma +4/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
« Reply #158 on: May 27, 2020, 07:17:28 PM »
salam jkhan

i would like to please ask you a question (for my knowledge)

you pray 3 times a day
please explain to me what are the three prayers you do and how you got to that conclusion? (do you recite Quran or not during prayer?)

my understanding of prayer is (1) from sunset to dusk and throughout night, (2) before fajr, (3) and day of gathering

please share your understanding

thank uuu

peace

Dear brother sister..

Why do you ask from someine whome you keep calling full of assumptions. Will my assumptions suit you?

anyhow it's God's will you asked..
So go through any of the salt topic I have debated.. Honestly I cannot remember under which topic I did.. But I hope in many..
Search if you are interested... So you will get what I practice when it comes to Salat...

Is what you follow an assumption of yours when it comes to Salat deviating from mainstream...

tutti_frutti

  • Beginner/Inquirer
  • *
  • Posts: 98
  • Karma +1/-0
Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
« Reply #159 on: May 27, 2020, 07:35:51 PM »
salam

i asked you in hopes you tell me using verses as proofs and not assumptions

and no, i followed verses and not assumptions

okay thanx

peace brother or sister :)