Was Moses in Egypt?????

[good logic]

Peace jkhan.
This is a trap that anyone can fall into, quote:

Those who reject the verses of God is Disveliever... Be it hadith follower or christian or jews or anyone even how good they are or how much time they spend on what they do with good intentions... Rejecting verses of God is simply rejecting God.. Their is no success by rejecting God and his verses.. Yes they think they don't reject God and they may never know they do reject God they worship daily but openly reject the verses of God.. They are simply blinded..

Also it should be:
Those who reject GOD s words DELIBERATELY AND INTENTIONALLY...Be it anyone including you ,me and everyone else....Knowingly....

Which by the way can only be known by GOD  if it is kept to themselves unless they are openly opposing GOD and creating Fassad(wickedness on earth.

Never mind thinking others are following hadiths, when we ae all capable of following our own made up hadiths or someone elses aware or unaware ,thinking we are the ones guided!!!

.Yet we argue "our truth" as if  it is GOD s truth and we have monopoly of GOD s truth. If we are so sure of our truth, then the best way is to use it to better our ways and improve our character by treating everyone as "innocent" unless proven guilty/admitting guilt openly.

Those who believe ,believe for themseves. A big part of our belief is to leave the judgement to GOD.
GOD bless you brother.
Peace.

[jkhan]

Peace jkhan.
This is a trap that anyone can fall into, quote:

Those who reject the verses of God is Disveliever... Be it hadith follower or christian or jews or anyone even how good they are or how much time they spend on what they do with good intentions... Rejecting verses of God is simply rejecting God.. Their is no success by rejecting God and his verses.. Yes they think they don't reject God and they may never know they do reject God they worship daily but openly reject the verses of God.. They are simply blinded..

Also it should be:
Those who reject GOD s words DELIBERATELY AND INTENTIONALLY...Be it anyone including you ,me and everyone else....Knowingly....

Which by the way can only be known by GOD  if it is kept to themselves unless they are openly opposing GOD and creating Fassad(wickedness on earth.

Never mind thinking others are following hadiths, when we ae all capable of following our own made up hadiths or someone elses aware or unaware ,thinking we are the ones guided!!!

.Yet we argue "our truth" as if  it is GOD s truth and we have monopoly of GOD s truth. If we are so sure of our truth, then the best way is to use it to better our ways and improve our character by treating everyone as "innocent" unless proven guilty/admitting guilt openly.

Those who believe ,believe for themseves. A big part of our belief is to leave the judgement to GOD.
GOD bless you brother.
Peace.

Peace brother good logic...
No one is exempted... All are in a trial...we are on a mission.. Until his or her last moment.. It can break into pieces at any time and lose everything if we dont keep looking for guidance.. .. 
That's why believer begs for pardon... Almost every day.. Even on every action which concerns. For example what Dawud did after his decision on Shepard ..  He was not sure he was right or wrong .. but he did ..so best way to ask for forgiveness... Asking pardon is a weapon in this life for believers when we are not sure and when we wrong unknown and by mistake etc..

I don't know what difference it makes DELIBERATELY and INTENTIONALLY... Anyhow rejectors are of various type.. Rejecting under any circumstances or any manner is rejection...even wittingly or unwittingly.. All rejection..
How one rejects a matter for example God or His verses..
1 .. Rejecting even before knowing it.. Not even try to know it..not at all interested in truth..
2... Rejecting out of pride..
3.. Rejecting after very well knowing..
4...Rejecting not being able to adapt to truth..
5... Rejecting to remain in belief of what the ancestors left..
6... Rejecting to nullify the truth..
7... Rejecting so that deception and lie prevail..
8.... Rejecting coz living in full of doubt...
9... Rejecting coz they found majority rejecting ...
10... Rejecting out of envious, dirty mind on believers..
11... Rejecting with over confidence..
12... Rejecting when failing in the life and trial... When life not going well for one.
13... Rejecting coz always the path of Satan decorated to him..
14... Rejecting coz God never guided them.. And their hearts are locked for guidance and truth...
15... Rejecting coz they feel all these are ancient innovation of nonsensical people... And all teach same nonsense..
16 ... Rejecting coz they feel they are better equipped and educated and feels self sufficient...

You can name...

Somehow all rejectors... Kafir..
If a believer doesn't know he is a believer that's far from reality... Everyone should judge themselves where they stand... If we don't know about ourself first then it is pointless living.  23:1-10... Even 2:177 is a good example to self judge.. Many a verse spread throughout QURAN.. We should be able to judge ourself... But.. God will judge us our action our truthfulness.. ... Believers will always know about their belief in fact throughout life span. Even at the time of death believers will know they are believers.. Even on the day of ressurection they will remain with confidence and with good news.. Will God treat believers same as disbelievers..
True believer knows he is a believer.. That's incontrovertible.. For example.. The one who hid his faith to king Pharaoh.. Was he thinking he was a disbeliever.. And why he should think so.. Why he should say to people "come I will show you right path ".. Who is he? Why people should  believe him.. Why God says to marry your children to those who believe.. 

48:29 "Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah ; and those with him are forceful against the DISBELIEVERS, merciful among themselves...."
how do they know disbelievers in the first place.. to be forceful against them..

4:144 "O you who have believed, do not take the DISBELIEVERS as allies instead of the BELIEVERS. Do you wish to give Allah against yourselves a clear case?"
Look at above verse.. First judge self... Then find who is Disbeliver then know your fellow Believers... Then take action according to verse.. That's what those believers would have done..

If one claim he doesn't know who the DISBELIVERS are then even though he lives with them,  then he may not be a believer in the first place.. That's my understanding.. ..
For all these you shouldn't deny God's verses..  Our actions shouldn't deny God's verses.


Knowing disbeliever is easier coz he is much exposed by what he does.. Harder part is to know Munafiq... That's a big challenge... If you read verses where Munafiq appears... Munafiq are believers.. But they will be exposed.. The weakness in the belief turn a believer to Munafiq..
9:101 "And among those around you of the a'rab are hypocrites, and [also] from the people of Madinah. They have become accustomed to hypocrisy. YOU DO NOT KNOW THEM, [but] We know them. We will punish them twice [in this world]; then they will be returned to a great punishment"

Strange isn't it? But slowly but surely they will be exposed.. It's not something that can be hidden.. Their dirty mind under the blanket of believer cannot survive for long...

[tutti_frutti]

salam jkhan

you still dont get what i am saying lol

you (Quran only people) think because you believe in Quran only that you are guided and that your line of defense is you followed the Quran only

it is not because we followed Quran only that we are necessarily guided. The God does what He wants. Remember the verse where we are told told people think they are guided by they are not?

The God knows who He guides. not you not me not anyone else knows

Do not go assuming this person or that is a kafir and you are guided just cause you uphold Quran only.

many who still believe in hadith give charity all the time, spend their nights and dawns praying, avoid vain talk, spend with their lives and goods in The God's name etc etc

you (as in Quran alone people) spend your nights and dawns in prayer and Quran recitation? many Quran alone people dont even think prayer is physical

you went to pilgrimage wherever you think it might be? many Quran alone people dont even think the masjid is physical while people who uphold hadith spend their wealths to go pilgrimage for The God
etc etc

using the i followed Quran alone as defense in day of judgement... you realize that if The God wants we will not even speak or be given opportunity to defend our case right? the best thing to do is to strive in our faith of The God and make worship of The God our passion, and never assume we are guided cause we do not know

so dont go assuming Quran only people are guided just cause we uphold Quran only. maybe we understood nothing in the Book

peace

[good logic]

Peace jkhan.
We find ourselves disagreeing about "disbelievers". You think you know them?

For me, there are more important things to do in life than worry about someone s  point of view about disbelievers or religion or disbelievers whoever they are!
-Saariou Ila Maghfiratin Min Rabbikum- Racing each other to good deeds , good morals and helping others(including disbelievers,if they require it) should be our aim according to Qoran.

Or are you going to disagree again? Is the main/important  message of Qoran not clear? here is a summary:

Whatever we  do for our salvation, we  do it to "feed our soul"/"connect to our Creator"/Redeem ourselves "/"Prepare ourselves to  meet Him"...
The instructions in Qoran are GOD s advise to you and me and everyone else on how to grow our "soul" to be able to withstand GOD s presence on the day of the "meeting".
It is GOD s advise to you and me and everyone else  to "follow His path( good conduct and good morals and total loyalty to Him Alone) and look after our "soul"the same or even better than we are looking after our "body". Do not neglect the "spiritual self":

"The well fed souls-Heavyweights- will succeed. The starving souls- the light weights- will lose!!!!!!
It is for our own good. Each to save their own neck.
Do not worry about the "disbelievers", it is between them and the Creator!!!!!
Hope we agree now.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[jkhan]

you still dont get what i am saying lol

I wish you don't say this quote on the day of ressurection... 'O God you dont get me, i did follow Quran" ...
Remember 25:30 carefully... Messenger was not worried about Hadith...but merely Quran...

you (Quran only people) think because you believe in Quran only that you are guided and that your line of defense is you followed the Quran only

it is not because we followed Quran only that we are necessarily guided. The God does what He wants. Remember the verse where we are told told people think they are guided by they are not?

I don't believe only in Quran... i believe as per 2:285  The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination.""

Yes I do follow Quran only... That's what My God has ordered me to do in His book Quran...Coz I am not born before Quran...If you feel you are not necessarily guided while following Quran only, then beg to God to guide you to the straight path... Following Quran is criteria, Guiding and misguiding is God's Business..Intention is key... If ones intention is to get the guidance and only guidance then having to get the misguidance from the Lord He begged for guidance is shear piece of Joke... Those who are misguided definitely their inner intention was not guidance but lip service... God knows them... Don't worry about them..

The God knows who He guides. not you not me not anyone else knows

Ofcourse God ONLY knows whomE He guides... Any doubt? Any issue? Did i ever say that someone else also has the capacity to guide... Just even messengers or believers can pass the message but no one can guide anyone...

But don't forget it is not alien thing to know who is guided... if guided they are believers... I know within my capacity who are believers when i live with them for sometime... Coz quran has basic how one can be a believer... if you dont have capacity to know... it's not my issue..

Do not go assuming this person or that is a kafir and you are guided just cause you uphold Quran only.

You are blinded to say about me and to order me... I don't go after each and everyone he is believer and he is disbeliever.... You think, i am a paid spy.. lol..
I am not living in a strange world not to know my collegues, my friends, my familiy members... They themselves accept what they believe and what they don't ... And we can see what they do as well to verify... All one has to do is compare what they do with Quran and its message...
For example... Why Ibrahim was worried about his father.... How Ibrahim knew he is guided and his father is not.... what right ibrahim has to say to his father you are going on wrong path.... Just use your wits dude... know where you live and with whome you live unless you are lost, how can you know about others..

many who still believe in hadith give charity all the time, spend their nights and dawns praying, avoid vain talk, spend with their lives and goods in The God's name etc etc

Their destiny is in God's Hand... But it is not difficult to know who is believer or disbeliever.... if one himself he is a believer... even the destiny of believer is in God's hand... it doesnt mean we cannot know the disbeliever... All religious people giving charity .... spend night in prayers of their way, all good people avoid vain talk... For example my Hindu friend... I hope he is better charactor than me... coz i know my limit... the most charitable he is.... But he worship idols calling they are gods... and he claims they 330 millons of gods .. He says he cant change his way... and he finds that's right.... Now as a friend what i will understand ... Can i call him a believer in God just coz he is charitable....

My ancestors and relatives... very religious... women are face covered... wonderful peacful charactors... unbelievable people... love to be with them as human... but if i say who authorized you to follow Hadith.... my goodness... it is even sin to say like that brother... our prophet told follow hadith.... not shia hadith but sunni hadith.... without hadith you are not complete....When i ask what do follow according to Quran? Can you give me a single example...honestly they dont have answer what they follow according to Quran.... Simply they don't follow anything according to quran... that's why they are speachless.. but they feel they are right... Who am i to guide them... But don't i know they have discarded quran in place of hadith....if i don't know i should be a fool...

you (as in Quran alone people) spend your nights and dawns in prayer and Quran recitation? many Quran alone people dont even think prayer is physical

I am not quran alone people... It is your whim that makes you to call me as such.... I am a believer...If you can call, call it ... if you can't.. just leave it... But don't call me quran alone people... There is no such thing...

Hope God guide you and me and all....Guidance is something we always should beg for from God....But believer cannot be believer today and change tomorrow... Thank you for reading...
i wonder even if you say i don't get you...

[jkhan]

We find ourselves disagreeing about "disbelievers". 1.You think you know them?

2..For me, there are more important things to do in life than worry about someone s  point of view about disbelievers or religion or disbelievers whoever they are!
-Saariou Ila Maghfiratin Min Rabbikum- Racing each other to good deeds , good morals and helping others(including disbelievers,if they require it) should be our aim according to Qoran.

3...Or are you going to disagree again? Is the main/important  message of Qoran not clear? here is a summary:

4. Whatever we  do for our salvation, we  do it to "feed our soul"/"connect to our Creator"/Redeem ourselves "/"Prepare ourselves to  meet Him"...
The instructions in Qoran are GOD s advise to you and me and everyone else on how to grow our "soul" to be able to withstand GOD s presence on the day of the "meeting".
It is GOD s advise to you and me and everyone else  to "follow His path( good conduct and good morals and total loyalty to Him Alone) and look after our "soul"the same or even better than we are looking after our "body". Do not neglect the "spiritual self":

"The well fed souls-Heavyweights- will succeed. The starving souls- the light weights- will lose!!!!!!
5 .It is for our own good. Each to save their own neck.
6.Do not worry about the "disbelievers", it is between them and the Creator!!!!!
[b7..]Hope we agree now.[/b]
GOD bless you.
Peace.

1.. Yes i know them... as long as they they live with me with what they do and what they practice and what they claim and what they reject is obvoius....

2.. I wish you can help me... i have too much important things to do as well....lol...I am not worried about those who disbelieve... do you think i am worried about them... What benefit for me by worrying about them... I only pray for them for their guidance and forgiveness from God.. God will he would..

3... Disagree what ?   important message of quran for me is clear... if you have any doubt and if you wish you may request...God willing i will explain..

4... about my soul i will look after it...

5.. Yes... Agree... now what is the issue with that?

6... as i said earlier... i won't worry about them... do you?

7.. There is nothing to agree with you... just follow quran if you wish, so do i...that's all...

God bless you and me and all and guide us always.. Ensure not to die without being Muslim (Surrenderer)... Now don't say that also we don't know..

Do you know you are a muslim or not, since you dont know you are believer or not? I know i am a muslim.. hope you too..lol

coz..
3:102 "O you who have believed, fear Allah as He should be feared and do not die except as Muslims"...
See the difference here... God advises the believers (Mumin) not to die without being Muslim ... So one should first know he is a believer in God.. and before his death he has to ensure that he is not going to die without being a Muslim...
If one cannot know this simple verse... it is his destiny...

additioinally...
I advise both of you...
Reade verse 02:2-17 carefully and meticulously each and every verse.... You would never have argued with me on this very topic, had you got it.... Believers know believers and disbelievers know believers as well.

[Layth]

Salam,

you (Quran only people) think because you believe in Quran only that you are guided and that your line of defense is you followed the Quran only

I hope you aren't referring to people here as "Quran Only". We are Muslims/Submitters as God has named the people who follow His system. Quran only, from the name of it, seems to be some sick Quran worshiping sect.

Do not go assuming this person or that is a kafir and you are guided just cause you uphold Quran only.

I honestly don't get why people are scared of using terms that God uses...I have seen this "political correctness" go on for many years now, where suddenly there are no Kafirs or Mushriks or Munafiqs or Muslims or Mumins - we are all one big soup of "only God can judge!".

No wonder Muslims are lost...

For example, God teaches us that people who say "trinity" or "God is Jesus" are "Kufaar" (see 5:73-73).

So, you get a simple question from a Christian asking you "what does the Quran say about Christianity?"

You can be truthful and say "anyone who says trinity or Jesus is God is considered a rejecter/kaffir and his destiny is not so great if he does not repent" - while this answer maybe shocking, it provides clarity to the person asking based on very specific and clear instructions from God.

Alternatively, you can follow the "politically correct" route and say "I don't know, his judgement is with God, but if he did good work, then I'm sure he will be fine"

One response is specific and truthful and may help the person to find the correct path - while the other is vague and deceitful and will most likely cause both the person asking and the person responding to be held accountable for their stupidity.

many who still believe in hadith give charity all the time, spend their nights and dawns praying, avoid vain talk, spend with their lives and goods in The God's name etc etc

So what? If they committed shirk then their deeds are all for nothing...

39:65 And He has inspired to you and to those before you, that if you set up partners, He will nullify all your works, and you will be of the losers.

In-fact, the first commandment for the "Straight Path" is not to set-up partners with God (6:151).

using the i followed Quran alone as defense in day of judgement... you realize that if The God wants we will not even speak or be given opportunity to defend our case right? the best thing to do is to strive in our faith of The God and make worship of The God our passion, and never assume we are guided cause we do not know

Your posts are clearly smart enough to tell me you get this whole scam that has been going on and you know the truth from the falsehood...Yet, something is holding you back (the threads of culture/society/family?!). Your example reminds me of Abraham who tried his best to see that his father was still "OK" even though he knew it was a lost cause 60:4.

[jkhan]

I honestly don't get why people are scared of using terms that God uses...I have seen this "political correctness" go on for many years now, where suddenly there are no Kafirs or Mushriks or Munafiqs or Muslims or Mumins - we are all one big soup of "only God can judge!".

No wonder Muslims are lost...

For example, God teaches us that people who say "trinity" or "God is Jesus" are "Kufaar" (see 5:73-73).

So, you get a simple question from a Christian asking you "what does the Quran say about Christianity?"

You can be truthful and say "anyone who says trinity or Jesus is God is considered a rejecter/kaffir and his destiny is not so great if he does not repent" - while this answer maybe shocking, it provides clarity to the person asking based on very specific and clear instructions from God.

Alternatively, you can follow the "politically correct" route and say "I don't know, his judgement is with God, but if he did good work, then I'm sure he will be fine"

One response is specific and truthful and may help the person to find the correct path - while the other is vague and deceitful and will most likely cause both the person asking and the person responding to be held accountable for their stupidity.

Peace Layth..

That's a a perfect response... I wonder why a believer doesn't know he is believer and doest know the disbeliever...  Seriously sometging wrong with them..

I don't want to give any more example since your answer is perfect... But still I present the following verse...

3:149 "O you who have BELIEVED, if you obey those who DISBELIEVE, they will turn you back on your heels, and you will [then] become losers"

I wish those who say they don't know whether they are guided or believrs and not know who the Disbelivers are.. Pls rethink...
How would you obey a disbeliever whome you don't know he is disbeliever...  How would you keep away from the disbeliever from obeying him unless you know you are a Believer.. .. Just know the self and you will know the disbeliever to not to obey them...
If you still say you don't know the disbeliever then you will definitely obey them... Those who obey them will be losers...
Peace..

[tutti_frutti]

salam

so believer/submitter is defined to be someone who believes in The God and upholds Quran only whilst hadith followers are disbelievers?

you need to understand what shirk means. you think shirk is openly being polytheistic. well no.

shirk is obeying the devil rather than The God. it is quite clear from the Quran
example the devil makes it seem to christians that trinity is okay and correct. the devil also pushes people to not give charity, or to be atheist.

Certainly! You and that which you are worshipping now besides The God, are fuel for Hell! you will enter it. (ch 21, verse 98)

what is it that the disbeliever worship that will enter? trinity? krishna? "atheism"? etc well no, it is the devil(s)

the devil perhaps also makes "submitters" (who updhold Quran only) believe that prayer is not physical, that they do not need to bow down to The God and prostrate.
the devil could also make it seem to submitters that ramadan is just a couple of days and not a month, or that there is no masjid to make pilgrimage to.
and yet the "submitters" will think they are on the right path eventhough they dont pray or make pilgrimage etc. remember The God gave permission (as nothing happens without His permission) to the devil to make people's works seem good and attractive to them.

can we say that just because people uphold Quran only that the devil has no power over them? I do not know, i am only saying we should not think we are guided, but rather continuously strive in our worship of The God and constantly ask The God for guidance and forgiveness.
and pray bowing down and prostrating to The God everyday with our faces to the floor from (1) sunset to darkness of the night and in parts of the night, (2) at day of gathering, and (3) before fajr, and to also recite the Quran every night and fajr (that is my understanding, and i am just sharing)

thinking "submitters" are guided and those who uphold hadith are allll kufar and disbelievers is arrogance i think
and remember, arrogance caused the devil to fall from angel state to becoming a djinn and a kafir (i think devil was an angel before disobeying)

again, it is not because people have "submitted" that they are necessarily guided cause we do not know who truly submitted. only The God knows what is in our hearts and, He does what He wants.

also, remember that many from before and many from after will enter one of the paradises. many from before and some from after will enter the other (foremost) paradise. we do not know who these "many" are and who these "some" are (although "some" maybe we could guess includes those who died in the name of The God)

i clash with people regarding abandoning hadith, sunnah etc and many reply to me that they pray to The God and not prophet, but they just cannot take the "risk" of deviating from  what billions of people believe in and have been doing for generations. so they obviously know that there is only The God and they pray only to The God.

yes i know The God says do not mention anyone with Him (which could make shahada is perhaps shirk) and we are told to not follow hadith etc but again we cannot judge those who uphold hadith

do i think those who are for example in awe when they see prophet hair or sandals or whatver are okay? or who uphold stories such as the 50 prayer thing are ok?
no i do not, i think that is an extremely dangerous thinking.

but i do not know what is in their hearts nor what is in mine

peace

[good logic]

Peace Layth, All.
Fisrt brother Layth, you say this,quote:
"
Alternatively, you can follow the "politically correct" route and say "I don't know, his judgement is with God, but if he did good work, then I'm sure he will be fine"
One response is specific and truthful and may help the person to find the correct path - while the other is vague and deceitful and will most likely cause both the person asking and the person responding to be held accountable for their stupidity.
"
Here is what Qoran advises:
Do not call any peaceful person "you are not a believer", if your aim is to correct them, then do it " Bi Al Hikmati Wa Al Mawidati Al Hasanati".With good intention.
Of course you should uphold the truth and be honest with it.
The issue is what is the benefit of calling a kafir even if they are one?

There is a difference between knowing that certain people are following traditions and false religions and being hostile with them by calling them kafirs..
We should give the example by being peaceful,but  honest with our views and inviting them amicably to reflect., unless  of course they turn away/refuse . Then one should ignore and walk away amicably.

Ittabiu Ashana Ma Unzila Ilaikum Min Rabbikum. We should follow the best path instructed to us in Qoran by GOD.
Calling anyone a Kafir is never the best path to follow.
GOD bless you.
Peace.