Was Moses in Egypt?????

[Layth]

Dear TF,

the word shahr is used throughout Quran to mean month. i do not see why you think it means full moon. and we are told to fast it. also the limited or fixed days could mean to fast the whole month not less not more. non?

I have not said that month/shar is the full moon, nor have I denied the statement that you are to "fast it". I merely pointed out that you have skipped an important part of the story by ignoring 2:183-184, and that will always lead to a distorted understanding (with your posts, the fast begins in 2:185 and we can pretend 183-184 do not even exist?!)

Is the fast of 182-183 and the fast of 185 the same thing?

Is Ramadhan a recurring month (the night of destiny in it is equated to 1,000 months)?

When was Ramadhan during the time of revelation - was it summer or winter or spring or autumn?

What does it mean "those who witness the month" - are not all months "witnessed"?

for prayer i am not following sunni or whatever i do not recite Quran in my prayers but rather i ask forgiveness guidance mercy ... and say things we are told to say in prayer (ch 17, v111) and other mentions such as saying my life devotion death are to The God... as well as glorify The God. i do what i understand from the Quran and not what sunnis do. (i also do not pray 5 times a day) why is there wudu? why name salats? why tell us those who ask forgiveness before fajr? why tell us to bow and prostrate? why not to be too loud or quite in prayer? why tell us maintain prayers? why say in times of war we can do 1 prostration? why say also during war a group prays whilst a group acts as vigils? why say prayers are on time? etc etc

Why have you called Al Salat "prayer"? Prayer is "Duaa" and can happen at any time with no requirements for ritual ablution or voice (like the men to pray to God when they thought they will drown on the ship and He saves them).

I want to add: people becareful prayer is extremely important we are never told it is okay to skip it even once. even during war we must pray. please people start praying physically to The God everyday on timeand never skip even one prayer

Again, you are mixing prayer with Al Salat. People can and should remember God frequently when they rise and when they sleep and when they commit to something...None of that is Al Salat.

Does God need you to be clean when you pray? Does He smell you? Also, why the audible voice, does He need to hear you?

regarding the jews or christians i mean many things have been changed so i cannot take them as reference. and if you take them as reference for fasting, why not for prayer? they physically pray albeit in their own manner but still physical. (btw there is a video in french where a rabbi talks about how prayer was like muslims but change by jews in purpose and how his people in synagogue pray like muslims (and even showing them pray like muslims))

I only pointed out fasting because the Quran  specifically mentioned that it was decreed "as it was decreed to those before you".

you are saying i am rushing to conclusions... cant we say then the same for you and everyone else who has an opinion?? is having an opinion rushing?

I carry out what I find to be defendable, and leave open the subjects that still need clarity/depth. You have made assumptions from the start that this is correct and that is wrong - I am simply trying to point out that you are skipping a bunch of stuff on each of these subjects - that is rushing.

what is your proof about the masjid and the bayt being different?

The Bayt/House (original) was revealed by God and its foundations raised by Abraham and Ismail. Our obligation is to make pilgrimage to the House.

The Masjid (restricted or otherwise) only gets mention during the story/life of Mohammed - meaning it could be a separate structure or the structure that encompassed the Bayt/House.

and we should not assume just because people uphold hadith that they do not believe in The God. many of them perhaps uphold the hadith because we are told to obey the messenger and thus they are afraid of The God if they do not uphold the hadith. many of them give away soo much charity, fast every year, pray all the time and every fajr as well and strive to go to what they believe is hajj etc etc and they do all that as they believe they are commands from The God (and they are indeed commands albeit prayer is not 5 times in my opinion and not reciting Quran or saying or mentioning prophets as they do etc and hajj is not saudi arabia in my opinion too).

Yes, that is called "shirk" and is an unforgivable offence if maintained until death. All good works done under this state are nullified.

[Wakas]

The Hajj article I agree with to an extent - though not that its location can be changed.

As for the Masjid Al-Haram, I skipped to the summary and saw that its not being viewed as a physical place?

Not a physical place, as that is the weaker of the options.

The article explains in detail why and also highlights issues/problems for various understandings, including a physical place.

[tutti_frutti]

salam layth

the answer to when ramadan is is definately in the Quran as we are told the Quran is detailed and has all information. i think it is a month. for me it was clear for you something else was clear lol

what do you mean by why should we be clean? The God tells us to do wudu. He did not tell us to systematically shower but only in certain conditions. we are also told we could use soil in certain conditions. so its not to smell good i believe huh. and so what do you do with that verse about wudu? what is its purpose?

also, water perhaps repels the devil? (isnt the devil made of fire?)

The God knows why He told us to do wudu and we should uphold it

so what does it mean salat fajr and salat 3isha?? what do you make of this? what is your definition of salat please?

why would the bayt not be masjid Al Haram? bayt the generic word and its name masjid Haram maybe? whats your proof that it is not?

what do you mean I have made assumptions? are you not making assumptions too??

shirk for me means to obey the devil and not The God. you cannot call people who uphold hadith necessarily misguided and doing shirk (yes i agree that its not good to uphold hadith and the other fabrications). but you and me do not know, The God knows. we dont even know if we ourselves are guided or not.

salam wakas

i still think masjid Al Haram is physical

peace

[Layth]

Salam TF,

what do you mean by why should we be clean? The God tells us to do wudu. He did not tell us to systematically shower but only in certain conditions. we are also told we could use soil in certain conditions. so its not to smell good i believe huh. and so what do you do with that verse about wudu? what is its purpose?

also, water perhaps repels the devil? (isnt the devil made of fire?)

The God knows why He told us to do wudu and we should uphold it

so what does it mean salat fajr and salat 3isha?? what do you make of this? what is your definition of salat please?

I am asking these questions so you will reflect on the mater beyond the surface understanding.

If you need to be clean (be it water or clean soil), then it means you are dealing with other people - hence the command to dress well in the Temples.

What is the purpose of gathering with these people at specific times (dawn/dusk/funeral)? If it is to pray to God, then we have already proven that you can pray to God under any circumstances and on your own (the example of Jonah or the people who were about to drown in the ship comes to mind).

If its not to "pray" then what is the gathering for? And, why should idolaters/mushrikeen uphold such gatherings?

why would the bayt not be masjid Al Haram? bayt the generic word and its name masjid Haram maybe? whats your proof that it is not?

Bayt/House is what Abraham was shown and from which the foundation was raised and the pilgrimage was called (see 22:26, 2:127, 3:97), so there is nothing that I need to show you beyond these verses to prove that the pilgrimage is to House/Bayt.

Now, if you want to make the Temple/Masjid and the Bayt/House to be one in the same, you are required to provide evidence (of which there is none).

shirk for me means to obey the devil and not The God. you cannot call people who uphold hadith necessarily misguided and doing shirk (yes i agree that its not good to uphold hadith and the other fabrications). but you and me do not know, The God knows. we dont even know if we ourselves are guided or not.

Shirk is to associate anything/anyone with God. It is the opposite of serving "God Alone" (see 39:45, 40:12)

Also, we know that many believers in God commit Shirk without knowing they are doing so (see 12:106).

Hadith is actually worse than Shirk as it associates man-made laws with the laws of God and even overrides the laws of God in some cases (such as allowing no will to be made for relatives or stoning married adulterers to death, etc..).

We know with certainty that those who rule by other than what God has revealed are the "Kafiroon/Zalimoon/Fasiqoon (see 5:44-49).

So, will you still defend those whom God calls Kafiroon/Zalimoon/Fasiqoon and say "we can't know", or, will you be truthful and call things for what they are as God has called them...

[tutti_frutti]

salam layth

i am confused. i do not understand your position on wudu and prayer. what do you think prayer and salat is?? im interested in your point of view

also wudu is not to pray solely in gatherings. wudu is even to pray on you own. The God says do not rise to prayer before wudu. there is no specification about gathering or not

dont the following verses (chapter, verse) show that masjid Al Haram is where pilgrimage is to be made?
(2:196) (5:2) (9:19) (22:25) (48:25) (48:27)

shirk is obeying satan and outcast devil assigned to every human. it is the devil that tells humans to reject The God and make up idols and not pray and not do charity etc etc

Did I not enjoin upon you, O children of Adam, that you not worship Satan - indeed, he is to you a clear enemy - And that you worship Me? This is a straight path. (36, 60-61)

And Satan will say when the matter has been concluded, "Indeed, The God had promised you the promise of truth. And I promised you, but I betrayed you. But I had no authority over you except that I invited you, and you responded to me. So do not blame me; but blame yourselves. I cannot be called to your aid, nor can you be called to my aid. Indeed, I deny your association of me before. Indeed, for the wrongdoers is a painful punishment." (14,22)

O my father, do not worship Satan. Indeed Satan has ever been, to the Most Merciful, disobedient. (19,44) although abraham's people worship idols, abraham tells them to not worship satan

shirk is disobeying The God and following the devils (they whisper to humans to reject The God and disobey) and by obeying them people put them as partners (this results in people believing things like trinity or multiple gods and other forms of polytheism etc)

i am not defending anyone. my point is we cannot say so and so is a kafir. we have no right to say that. we ourselves do not know if we are guided.

for example maybe your and other people definition of ramadan is wrong (btw i have nooo idea why some people say it is ten days or 3 days, its just conjecture and using unrelated verses) maybe mine and other people (1 month) is wrong. maybe we dont know how to pray etc etc no one knows if they are truly guided by The God. we can only hope for The God's mercy, guidance and forgiveness of our sins.

peace

[jkhan]

Peace..
I am afraid it goes well and truly off topic..

@ Layth.. TF
I don't see any difference of what both says about Shirk OR mushrikun... You both bringing the Quran verses to denote shirk and what is the argument here then.. ... Both are right about Shirk..
Take this example as well..

6:121 "And eat not of that over which God's Name has not been mentioned; it is ungodliness. The Satans inspire their friends to dispute with you; if you obey them, you are Idolaters(mushriqun)" ...no need further elaboration by anyone coz QURAN is manifest who can be mushrik and how and why...

But I don't agree with Layth additionally  saying hadith is worse than Shirk.. I don't think you have any support for that.. Of course hadith following leaving Quran and replacing quran is worse but why worse than shirk is question  mark.. Action of leaving Quran to another is by getting deceived to Satan... So criteria meets with what is shirk.. Not worse is extra..

@ TF

You totally not getting what Layth saying... To know kafir you don't need science or God never ordered not to call qafir as qafir... How to call qafir then.. Mumin?  Utterly ridiculous...
109:01 "Say, "O disbelievers (Qafirun ) "...
If God orders to say why you stop it..  To call some qafir, one should know the qafir..
It's not difficult to find the qafir if you live with them... And if you know them what they do. 
There are so many examples in Quran.. Such as qafir,  mushrikun,  etc.. Mumin knows them.. Unless you can't kill them Whereever you find them.. Don't get upset.. It was an order during war... And war situation.. So.. Unless you know them you will only kill mumin..
Just know them if you are believer..  Treat them well as long as they don't harm you... And be friend with them.. They are Human.. Ibrahim's  father was not a Muslim or mumin.. So he only could have been a qafir.  ...ibrahim prayed for him... We are human.. Live as human..

[tutti_frutti]

salam jkhan

i dont think you get my point

we cant say those who uphold hadith are kafreen and those Quran only people are not kafreen

example:

if ramadan is a month and prayer is physical and to be done every evening and fajr, those who dont fast or fast only ten or three days and dont do prayers evening and fajr, are they guided? or did they fall into trap of satan and thus kafreen

same for those who fast a month and pray every evening and night and fajr, what if that is incorrect, are they guided or they fell into satan's trap?

i am not talking about the openly atheists or polytheists etc etc  i am talking about those who believe and uphold hadith, sunnah and traditions

i do not think people should boast about being guided and the others not guided and kafreen

we do not know who is guided and who is not

peace

[Layth]

Thank you Jkhan.

You are correct - it is perhaps clearer to coin such behavior as Shirk and not Kufur.

Also, I agree 100% with your observation that the Quranic laws that address the Kufaar or Munafiqeen becomes completely meaningless unless such groups can be identified.

Dear TF,

I would not worry much about people who have taken partners with God...Their recompense will be with God.

If someone wants to associate partners with God (be they saints or prophets or men or jinn, etc.) then they have deal with the consequences and our job is to merely remind them that there is no compromise/substitute to God alone.

The only path acceptable to God is submission, and anything other than submission will not be accepted by Him (3:85).

[tutti_frutti]

salam layth

indeed i agree

And who is better in speech than one who invites to Allah and does righteousness and says, "Indeed, I am of the Muslims." (ch 41, verse 33)

peace

[jkhan]

salam jkhan

i dont think you get my point

we cant say those who uphold hadith are kafreen and those Quran only people are not kafreen

example:

if ramadan is a month and prayer is physical and to be done every evening and fajr, those who dont fast or fast only ten or three days and dont do prayers evening and fajr, are they guided? or did they fall into trap of satan and thus kafreen

same for those who fast a month and pray every evening and night and fajr, what if that is incorrect, are they guided or they fell into satan's trap?

i am not talking about the openly atheists or polytheists etc etc  i am talking about those who believe and uphold hadith, sunnah and traditions

i do not think people should boast about being guided and the others not guided and kafreen

we do not know who is guided and who is not

peace

Salam TF..

You don't get me.. You don't get me is very common in a debate.. So that we can change what is stated previously... But in your case it's too much.. As if you have written in alien language..
Dear Brother or Sister.. I get you what you have written crystal clearly... I get you what you change with much transperancy... I skipped many things from your thread unanswered coz you twist.. And further Layth was answering you to the best..
Why I skipped is coz you used the word MAINSTREAM in your thread and later you started saying "I don't get you" and OMITED Mainstream from the wording and adjusted.. This is intentional... Your intention is clear.. You are prejudiced and cannot get out of the shackles.. Either with knowledge or without.. May be you don't perceive it..

But I only came up to clarify what Layth said and your claim of qafir cannot be identified.. Just anyone who deny or belie what's revealed is Disveliever.. That's qafir... Or disbeliever is not only common to Quran but in general.. For example I am a qafir in existence of ghost..

If you want to show affection to those who follow hadith.. Show.. No harm.. But your affection won't change the sunna of God.. God is furious on those who reject His verses... That's why He promises to punish in hell fire those who reject His verses...
If you think those who follow hadith dont reject God's verses then no need to worry.. They are believers who don't reject God's verses and practice them..
But I do think they do reject God's verses in black and white.. Quran for them is just mere symbol of their religion.. But for practices of hadith is their lifeline.. To the extent without hadith NO ISLAM.. Simply they can't live without hadith..
But for believers quran is guidance and everything even they take it right or wrong they depend on it solely.. ... 
Among those who follow hadith, Can anyone be a Muslim if they don't circumcise...  Just think practically. The one who is not circumcised is qafir with the belief of Hadith..
What if the story is different in the eyes of God... Who is qafir then? Who gave this authority to them... Just a shameless practice of circumcision demoralizing God's perfect design.. Most of all making it religious and moreover threshold to becoming a Muslim with sheding the piece of flesh.. Simply barbaric...

Simply and finally.. Those who reject the verses of God is Disveliever... Be it hadith follower or christian or jews or anyone even how good they are or how much time they spend on what they do with good intentions... Rejecting verses of God is simply rejecting God.. Their is no success by rejecting God and his verses.. Yes they think they don't reject God and they may never know they do reject God they worship daily but openly reject the verses of God.. They are simply blinded..
Don't compare believer with them.. Coz believer has a weapon.. He can always say to God on the day of ressurection I took only your verses for guidance.  Forgive me if I took it wrong with my lack of knowledge... But followers of hadith has no explanation... Coz they too another book..