Author Topic: Was Moses in Egypt?????  (Read 37996 times)

Layth

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Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
« Reply #100 on: May 19, 2020, 11:03:21 AM »
Salam Huruf.

I don’t agree with your premise that Egypt is not Eygypt.

Firstly, having water tributaries from the same source in Arabic are all called “rivers” as seen by the Quran calling the tributaries from one single source as such (see 2:74)

Secondly, the title Pharoah is associated in scripts with today’s Egypt.

Thirdly, Egyptians are fond of mummification - a skill necessary for the preservation of the body of Ramsees II - the Pharaoh of Moses’s time.

Finally, there is no issue that the name ‘Misr’ may have referred to a city or province within the larger kingdom (it could be the name of the main city), whereas the country itself carried a different name.
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

huruf

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Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
« Reply #101 on: May 19, 2020, 01:45:40 PM »
Fine, Layth, you believe that, the Qur'an is there for anybody to check. Your arguments to do not seem such.

Salaam
Salam Huruf.

I don’t agree with your premise that Egypt is not Eygypt.

Firstly, having water tributaries from the same source in Arabic are all called “rivers” as seen by the Quran calling the tributaries from one single source as such (see 2:74)

Secondly, the title Pharoah is associated in scripts with today’s Egypt.

Thirdly, Egyptians are fond of mummification - a skill necessary for the preservation of the body of Ramsees II - the Pharaoh of Moses’s time.

Finally, there is no issue that the name ‘Misr’ may have referred to a city or province within the larger kingdom (it could be the name of the main city), whereas the country itself carried a different name.


I can't follow you. I can't see see in what way what you say is answering anything I wrote. But never mind, the Qur'an is there for anybody to verify things, besides all the studies and materials in egyptology are also there.
Also obviously everybody does not have to agree on anything.

Salaam

tutti_frutti

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Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
« Reply #102 on: May 20, 2020, 09:16:42 AM »
salam

I still believe moses was in egypt

The God uses the word qariya when He mentions city as in chapter 42 verse 7 when He tells us about the mother of cities. so why would misr/masr mean city?

regarding the gates of the city well maybe they entered the capital of egypt to meet yusuf

regarding wife of so and so note that even in yusuf narrative we are told the wife of so and so (wife of governor similar in moses narrative we are told wife of pharaoh)

and for the plural of rivers, please note that during narmer (or menes) time which mamy attribute as first pharaoh, the capital was memphis which was at the mouth of the nile delta (many streams flowing from that point)

do you think its a coincidence that the word pharaoh was used for the ruler at moses time and not yusuf time, and that according to historians rulers of egypt were first kings and that at a certain moment in time they were known as pharaohs?

we do not find archeological evidence of the exodus in my opinion because if i remember a verse, The God tells us He has made prophets and messengers of before ahadiths (narratives?)

btw may we assume the exodus was crossing the nile? The God tells them to enter egypt (dont know if before or after “expdus”) so maybe they inherited egypt before crossing a second time the sea?

again look at the verse (chapter 2, verses 65-66) where The God tells the transgressors of the sabbath to be despicable apes. dont you think its what scientist call the human/ape common ancestors whose bones were found in africa? The God clearly uses an adjective to describe what kind of apes He turned the trangressors of sabbath into. He alao mentions they are a deterrent punishment to those of their generation and subsequent generations. and we have found human-ape like fossils! for me that pinpoints to sabbath transgressors being in africa and hence moses narrative being in africa/egypt

on another note, the issue with many people in this site is that they try soo much to be different from “mainstream”. do not try to be different from mainstream just for the sake of being different. we do not know who The God permitted to understand the Quran so rather than trying to be different, try to understand  the Quran as it is.

i think people also overcomplicate things as in ramadan is full moon or salat is not prayer by prostration and bowing (in my opinion it is clear ramadan is a month and salat is prostration (i personally prostrate by completely lying down with chin on floor as well as “traditional prostration” and bowing)

i think ramadan has to do with when the star sirius descends and is closest to earth maybe (surah 53 holds the answer in my opinion) - i.e. perhaps ramadan is dog days of summer. from my understanding the angels guard the stars and sirius being the brightest star we can see is perhaps where gabriel is

if i am wrong along the line i supplicate The God to please forgive me and to please increase my knowledge

peace

huruf

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Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
« Reply #103 on: May 20, 2020, 11:50:43 AM »
When one wants things to be one way one can always make anything fit anything one likes. You may call the river Nile streams when it builds a delta, fine with me. You may make the word misr mean anything you like no matter wht because you have found that naother word in the Qur'an mean this or that, fine. Everything n be twisted to fit one's prejudices. You may put streams in Egypt nd turn fir3awn into something that did not exist in aciente Egypt. There was not such word as pharao but something that is taken to be pharao and which only hasin comon with pharao but one single letter and which does not mean king. But one can always invent something to justify it.                                                                       

Never mind the country of the Nile converted into a land of streams, neve mind that in all the overwhelming abundance of documentation from acient Egyp there is not even a hint of anything like the "hebrews" and the "exodus" or of anything in any way ressembling those stories.

But the most beautiful is that, Ramses II or one of his dinasty sending some recruiters to gather a force to pursue a party of escaped. Is that the same king who kept at bay fierce armies all around? Poor thing havin to gather on the spot a few armed men?

Again, the Qur'a is there. Nobody is getting paid for convincing anybody of anything, and certainly sound egos are in need of anybody talling them "you are right", but certain things, when one can spare the time and the effort, must be said, so that people who have not been exposed to the reality of Qur'an as many who have studied it thoroughly see it, may have a chance to look at it from other points of departure than whose who have been shaped by other long standing conventions.

Salaam



                                     

huruf

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Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
« Reply #104 on: May 20, 2020, 12:28:15 PM »
See in Yusuf 12.51

قَالَ مَا خَطْبُكُنَّ إِذْ رَاوَدتُّنَّ يُوسُفَ عَن نَّفْسِهِ ۚ قُلْنَ حَاشَ لِلَّـهِ مَا عَلِمْنَا عَلَيْهِ مِن سُوءٍ ۚ قَالَتِ امْرَأَتُ الْعَزِيزِ
الْآنَ حَصْحَصَ الْحَقُّ أَنَا رَاوَدتُّهُ عَن نَّفْسِهِ وَإِنَّهُ لَمِنَ الصَّادِقِينَ ﴿٥١

It says imratu-al-aziz   =   wife of THE Aziz   with article
Aziz title


See At taHrim 66.10-11:

 ضَرَبَ اللَّـهُ مَثَلًا لِّلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا امْرَأَتَ نُوحٍ وَامْرَأَتَ لُوطٍ ۖ كَانَتَا تَحْتَ عَبْدَيْنِ مِنْ عِبَادِنَا صَالِحَيْنِ فَخَانَتَاهُمَا فَلَمْ يُغْنِيَا عَنْهُمَا مِنَ اللَّـهِ شَيْئًا وَقِيلَ ادْخُلَا النَّارَ مَعَ الدَّاخِلِينَ ﴿١٠﴾ وَضَرَبَ اللَّـهُ مَثَلًا لِّلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا امْرَأَتَ فِرْعَوْنَ إِذْ قَالَتْ رَبِّ ابْنِ لِي عِندَكَ بَيْتًا فِي الْجَنَّةِ وَنَجِّنِي مِن فِرْعَوْنَ وَعَمَلِهِ وَنَجِّنِي مِنَ الْقَوْمِ الظَّالِمِينَ ﴿١١﴾

it says
imara'ata luTin imra'a nuH     without article
imara'ata fir3awn          without article

Fir3awn proper name of person




Salaam

tutti_frutti

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Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
« Reply #105 on: May 20, 2020, 12:28:50 PM »
salam

i am not trying to make things fit. it is just clear to me that moses was in egypt. perhaps i am wrong, i never said i know for a fact.

so you say it is not egypt, so what is it then? what would make it not egypt but some other place? and what is this other place?

btw also in english and french we say the king’s wife  (la femme du roi) and we also say pharaoh’s wife and not the pharaoh’s wife (la femme dE (of) pharaon and la femme dU (of the) pharaon are both correct). it doenst mean pharaoh is the name of a person.

btw just a side note, is it a coincidence that akhenaton was “erased” from history by the succeeding egyptian pharaohs and city he built amarna was layed to ruin? and also a coincidence that his wife nefertiti was erased from recorded history and no one knows for sure what happened to her or why she was erased? (remember in the Quran The God tells us pharaoh’s wife believed in The God) is it also a coincidence that she and akhenaton only had daughters?
im just guessing here it could very well not be akhenaton

peace

huruf

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Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
« Reply #106 on: May 20, 2020, 02:33:23 PM »
The wife of fir3awn says the Qur'an, the same as the wife of Nuh and the wife of Lut,
But the wife of THE aziz,

It does not say the wife of the Fir3awn, no article before fir3awn  just like the wife of Nuh without article, and wife of Lut, no article with the name of the husband

But article with the name of the title,

the wife of THE aziz



Salaam

tutti_frutti

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Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
« Reply #107 on: May 20, 2020, 03:40:53 PM »
salam

my point is it is not grammatically incorrect to say fir3awn rather than The fir3awn

so saying fir3awn only is okay to mean pharaoh. no need to say “the fir3awn” to mean a title. the rulers of egypt are called fir3awn

anyways, where was moses then ? :)

peace



huruf

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Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
« Reply #108 on: May 20, 2020, 11:25:26 PM »
Can you give any instances of the same thing without the article from the Qur'an? Where is it said that the article is correct and still mean the same as without the article?  Articles have a purpose, there are not there or are there for nothing.

As to where it was, there were long debates int he forum as it being in Southwestern Arabian Paninsula, Yemen and surroundings, where really there are streams and there were indeed many kingdoms or domains. But I have no interest in convincing anybody of anything, again. whoever is interested should verify her or himself for her or his own benefit.


Salaam

Layth

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Re: Was Moses in Egypt?????
« Reply #109 on: May 21, 2020, 12:55:30 AM »
Salam,

Pharaoh being a title or the name of the first person who used it does not make any difference.

Julius Ceaser (proper name) was the first to adopt his name as a title, and all that followed were named "Ceaser".

We know that "Al Firoun" (the family of Pharaoh) are mentioned several times in the Qur'an and that God is very angry with them all (He condemns them to the worst punishment in Hell 40:46).

Nothing in the Quran contradicts the argument that Egypt (Nile area) is the same Egypt mentioned by God.



`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)